Tactics

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Worthy4England
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Re: Tactics

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:03 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:45 pm
Interesting couple of tweets posted by lower-league-focused site D3D4Football:
Over the course of the league season, we've had the division's seventh-most "entrances into the opponents' box" and the fourth most chances created. Yet 12 teams have scored more than us, and indeed we've failed to scored in 11 of 23 league games (only Donny are higher).

Evatt's right with this week's warning to the forwards that they have to buck up. (For the purposes of clarity, so do the defenders.)
Doesn't that suggest when we're bemoaning RB Brocky and MF Delf, that we still should've been doing better up front than we have (which is what I was suggesting Tuesday night despite our less than optimal MF)?

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Re: Tactics

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:09 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:03 pm
Doesn't that suggest when we're bemoaning RB Brocky and MF Delf, that we still should've been doing better up front than we have (which is what I was suggesting Tuesday night despite our less than optimal MF)?
It suggests the issue is playing staff and not coaching staff.

Those numbers are not as positive during the period we've been largely without a midfield (we've dropped down the XG league table), but our conversion rate has remained consistently bad. Meaning our midfield is negatively affecting our results, but we'd have had a better time with more clinical forwards.

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Re: Tactics

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:49 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:03 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:45 pm
Over the course of the league season, we've had the division's seventh-most "entrances into the opponents' box" and the fourth most chances created. Yet 12 teams have scored more than us, and indeed we've failed to scored in 11 of 23 league games (only Donny are higher).

Evatt's right with this week's warning to the forwards that they have to buck up. (For the purposes of clarity, so do the defenders.)
Doesn't that suggest when we're bemoaning RB Brocky and MF Delf, that we still should've been doing better up front than we have (which is what I was suggesting Tuesday night despite our less than optimal MF)?
It suggests that our forwards (as a group) have been critically underperforming, which is something I've been saying since September: despite scoring five at Ipswich and four at Charlton, we were still not scoring in line with chance creation. Charlton feels like a long time ago; it remains the last league away goal we've scored. September.

It has been obvious for a long time that our defence needed improvement, but football isn't binary and it's quite possible to have more than one fault simultaneously. Our defence is porous, our attack is inefficient, and our midfield... well, if it's still featuring Thomo and Delf in February, I fear for us.

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Re: Tactics

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:32 pm

Chances created is a loose metric. You need to see the quality of chances created to really judge is it just a finishing issue or a final ball issue. You can give me any number of stats but my own eyes tell me that we don’t create nearly enough clear cut chances in the majority of games for the ball we have. And we do tend to miss a few too. But I think we should create a lot more. We also don’t score many types of goals. Which is an issue.
Last edited by BWFC_Insane on Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tactics

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm

Ignore this.

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Re: Tactics

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:21 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm
Ignore this.
Thought Insano made some good points :-)

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Re: Tactics

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:34 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:21 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm
Ignore this.
Thought Insano made some good points :-)
I was going to get into it, but I couldn't be arsed.

I have a cold and anything I offered would be half-baked.

Doesn't usually stop me, I know; but like I say - cold.

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Re: Tactics

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:50 pm

You'd probably also be hollering into the void. Some folk simply don't like statistical analysis – especially when said numbers don't agree with their own qualitative analysis. Which, again, is fine.

Good luck getting over the cold.

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Re: Tactics

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:54 pm

Nope. I wasn't doing it and then I started doing it in increments. Get thee behind me, Liam Trotter.

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Re: Tactics

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:56 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:54 pm
Nope. I wasn't doing it and then I started doing it in increments. Get thee behind me, Liam Trotter.
That was a lot more Carry On than I intended....matron.

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Re: Tactics

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:26 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:50 pm
You'd probably also be hollering into the void. Some folk simply don't like statistical analysis – especially when said numbers don't agree with their own qualitative analysis. Which, again, is fine.

Good luck getting over the cold.
I like stats. But you can’t just always take a stat at face value.

But a basic stat is this team are set to score 8 fewer goals than Parkys league one promotion team and concede close to double. So both ends of the pitch are problematic.

Going into the season we all questioned how many goals we had in us and it’s not surprising this is a problem. After Dapos initial burst we look light. Sarce going hasn’t helped. Set piece failure hasn’t helped. But we just don’t have enough goals through the side. Centre halves have to contribute. They aren’t. Midfield have to. They aren’t. It’s a problem.

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Re: Tactics

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:40 pm

It's my drum and I will continue to bang it. xG and all similar are not statistics. They are predictions, based on stats but using algorithms which are subjective and dependent on the judgment and weighting of the humans who programme who make the inputs.

That's not to say it's useless, but it's not a statistic.
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Re: Tactics

Post by Bertie Wooster » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:07 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:26 pm
I like stats. But you can’t just always take a stat at face value.

But a basic stat is this team are set to score 8 fewer goals than Parkys league one promotion team and concede close to double. So both ends of the pitch are problematic.

Going into the season we all questioned how many goals we had in us and it’s not surprising this is a problem. After Dapos initial burst we look light. Sarce going hasn’t helped. Set piece failure hasn’t helped. But we just don’t have enough goals through the side. Centre halves have to contribute. They aren’t. Midfield have to. They aren’t. It’s a problem.
Out of interest does anyone know if we have an attacking coach at the club ?, or anyone who works with the attacking players.

We have Evatt, Atherton & Bird to coach the defence - which in itself is laughable as we are awful defensively & Gilks coaches the keepers (although this is also debatable) as Gilks doesn't appear to have coached both Crellin & Dixon to be more vocal & organisational.

Do we actually have any experienced coaches above national league level at the club ?

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Re: Tactics

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:32 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:54 pm
Nope. I wasn't doing it and then I started doing it in increments. Get thee behind me, Liam Trotter.
I have plenty of stats to suggest that Liam is more likely than not to be behind you...

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Re: Tactics

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:35 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:32 pm
I have plenty of stats to suggest that Liam is more likely than not to be behind you...
Liam lives in London. I am currently facing North. Shit, you may be right.

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Re: Tactics

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:37 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:40 pm
It's my drum and I will continue to bang it. xG and all similar are not statistics. They are predictions, based on stats but using algorithms which are subjective and dependent on the judgment and weighting of the humans who programme who make the inputs.

That's not to say it's useless, but it's not a statistic.
Aye then there's all the bits the stats can't or don't count..football is a long way from being the only business with "books full of stats" in general they're guidance system and they help. If, as they relate to football, they were highly accurate, there'd be fewer Bookies....

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Re: Tactics

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:39 am

Evattball 2.0 or Evattball Redux? Here's the gaffer:
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/19 ... ossession/
“s we saw on Saturday, we had less possession than Sunderland but what we did with it was completely different to what they did. It’s about having the ball but being positive and utilising your possession in the right ways. I think we’re finding solutions now to do that. It helps obviously when your two frontmen set the tone of the team. I thought on Saturday our two frontmen certainly did that both in and out of possession.

I don’t think we’ve been direct by any shape or form and you can see that in the third and fourth goals (against Sunderland). What we’re trying to do is be more positive with our possession. We have to sometimes give the opposition the credit they deserve and Sunderland are a good footballing team.

The opposition having possession is fine if they’re building from the back and not getting anywhere. It’s when they start penetrating you with that possession that it becomes a problem. We had set traps on Saturday. We understood who we wanted to have the ball and who we didn’t want to have it, and that was their centre backs. I heard Lee (Johnson) mention after the game that our gameplan was excellent. We imposed ourselves well and did everything we wanted to do.

There are going to be games where we have loads of possession but it’s how we use it to hurt the opposition. That’s something we weren’t doing very well (in recent months). Early on we were scoring lots of goals and creating lots of chances. Then when we had the injuries, that went the other way and we became a bit ‘tippy tappy’.

I want us to have possession and look pleasing on the eye but I’m not doing it for my own vanity. We’re doing it for a purpose and we’re built to play that way.

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Re: Tactics

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:54 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:39 am
Evattball 2.0 or Evattball Redux? Here's the gaffer:
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/19 ... ossession/
“s we saw on Saturday, we had less possession than Sunderland but what we did with it was completely different to what they did. It’s about having the ball but being positive and utilising your possession in the right ways. I think we’re finding solutions now to do that. It helps obviously when your two frontmen set the tone of the team. I thought on Saturday our two frontmen certainly did that both in and out of possession.

I don’t think we’ve been direct by any shape or form and you can see that in the third and fourth goals (against Sunderland). What we’re trying to do is be more positive with our possession. We have to sometimes give the opposition the credit they deserve and Sunderland are a good footballing team.

The opposition having possession is fine if they’re building from the back and not getting anywhere. It’s when they start penetrating you with that possession that it becomes a problem. We had set traps on Saturday. We understood who we wanted to have the ball and who we didn’t want to have it, and that was their centre backs. I heard Lee (Johnson) mention after the game that our gameplan was excellent. We imposed ourselves well and did everything we wanted to do.

There are going to be games where we have loads of possession but it’s how we use it to hurt the opposition. That’s something we weren’t doing very well (in recent months). Early on we were scoring lots of goals and creating lots of chances. Then when we had the injuries, that went the other way and we became a bit ‘tippy tappy’.

I want us to have possession and look pleasing on the eye but I’m not doing it for my own vanity. We’re doing it for a purpose and we’re built to play that way.
Interesting he acknowledges they were too tippy tappy. I like that phrase because it’s the worst sort of football to watch imho.

And the stats do show we were more direct, but I think direct is used incorrectly. It doesn’t mean pumping balls down the middle but it means finding ways to get at teams quickly. Our two first half goals were both direct. Not many touches of the ball, and it’s in the net.

Mixing our play up is very helpful.

I agree that it’s not about possession but what you do with it. And mainly the intent to get the ball in the box. That’s been better in recent weeks. Get men in the box get the ball in there. Obviously you can’t sling it in from all angles but if a team sits deep make them defend their box. Don’t let them defend the edge of it as ultimately that’s what they want. Defend their box and one mistake it’s a goal.

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Re: Tactics

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:06 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:54 am
Interesting he acknowledges they were too tippy tappy. I like that phrase because it’s the worst sort of football to watch imho.
Worth remembering that "tiki-taka" started as a derogatory phrase Guardiola used to describe pointless unpenetrative passing.

Also linguistically interesting that "tippy-tappy" and "tiki-taka" are so similar, both following the rule of ablaut reduplication, in which vowel sounds in repeated onomatopoeic or semi-nonsense phrases go I-A-O - clip-clop, mish-mash, ping-pong. But that's another topic.

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Re: Tactics

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:11 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:06 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:54 am
Interesting he acknowledges they were too tippy tappy. I like that phrase because it’s the worst sort of football to watch imho.
Worth remembering that "tiki-taka" started as a derogatory phrase Guardiola used to describe pointless unpenetrative passing.

Also linguistically interesting that "tippy-tappy" and "tiki-taka" are so similar, both following the rule of ablaut reduplication, in which vowel sounds in repeated onomatopoeic or semi-nonsense phrases go I-A-O - clip-clop, mish-mash, ping-pong. But that's another topic.
It’s not really styles though for me. Nobody wouldn’t want to play like Man City. But trying to play like that with players that aren’t good enough gives you this rather dull sideways passing that doesn’t offer up much excitement. That’s tippy tappy. It’s just taking extra passes for no reason. Not working openings just passing it for the sake of it. Some teams manage to do that and win a lot of games 1-0 but it’s not attractive.

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