Tactics
Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em
- Dave Sutton's barnet
- Immortal
- Posts: 28701
- Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
- Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
- Contact:
Re: Tactics
Of course! The proto-Sarcevic, along with yon Mullin lad.brommers95 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:19 pmHaven't watched any of Cheltenham this season so can't say exactly, but they did sell Tozer to moneybags Wrexham in the summer so that probably has something to do with it and then like you say, it might be a case of struggling to cope with the step up in ability.
- Dave Sutton's barnet
- Immortal
- Posts: 28701
- Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
- Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
- Contact:
Re: Tactics
Interesting quotes gathered by Dan Barnes, presumably in the pre-Pompey presser:
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/19 ... uth-clash/
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/19 ... uth-clash/
Also:Our philosophy and identity will never change – we’re always going to try to be a possession-based football team. But the tactics around that could obviously change. We’ll never lose our belief and identity because once you’ve done that, you’re on a hiding to nothing.
You’ve got to stick to your beliefs but there are changes and tweaks you can make. For instance, we were 3-5-2 for a lot of last season and then we changed to 4-3-3. We’ve been 4-2-3-1, we’ve had pivots with two eights.
We’ve got that to able to adapt and tinker with. We’ve probably got the players to be able to play three at the back again now. When you’ve got people missing, you’ve got to look at what system best suits the personnel available.
We’ll do that on a match-by-match basis. We’ll never stick to one formation, it’s always about adapting and overcoming.
Wonder where they went? The gee-gees? Vegas?After the week we’d had and with the captain leaving, we needed to get the lads together and share some good moments, and we did that on Tuesday. It was good fun, very light-hearted.
Sometimes it does us good to get away from the football environment and the training ground, and that’s where people’s personalities come out more. People will spend time with each other and talk about different things other than football, and you build relationships.
All the best teams I played in were very strong on and off the pitch, those relationships. So hopefully we can do more of that type of thing. The club has been brilliant in supporting me with that idea and every time I’ve asked for something, they always try and help as best they can.
- GhostoftheBok
- Legend
- Posts: 6826
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm
Re: Tactics
- brommers95
- Reliable
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:10 pm
Re: Tactics
Flight Club in Manchester according to WWays.
- BWFC_Insane
- Immortal
- Posts: 36184
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm
Re: Tactics
Whilst we're on tactics BWFC Analysis on twitter has pretty much for me summed up the majority of our attacking problems in one superb and excellent video tweet.
https://twitter.com/analysis_bwfc/statu ... 20458?s=20
This to me sums us up. Lovely play, create space - then whoever is in said space (bar maybe Declan John) take far far too many touches before delivering a pass or a shot or a cross. Its a consistent problem. The best chance of scoring goals in modern football is EARLY delivery having worked the opportunity with bodies in the box. But when we get bodies in the box the cross is too late. If I was to sum up why our attacks are often useless its this. We work the ball well. We switch it better than most sides I've seen. But then we don't know what to do. And this is the point where I think we suffer most. Players are attacking the box. And Isgrove wastes it. But Issy isn't the only one, Kachunga, Jones, Sarce, Sheehan even Dapo they've all this season not made the most of openings like this that we ceate regularly.
https://twitter.com/analysis_bwfc/statu ... 20458?s=20
This to me sums us up. Lovely play, create space - then whoever is in said space (bar maybe Declan John) take far far too many touches before delivering a pass or a shot or a cross. Its a consistent problem. The best chance of scoring goals in modern football is EARLY delivery having worked the opportunity with bodies in the box. But when we get bodies in the box the cross is too late. If I was to sum up why our attacks are often useless its this. We work the ball well. We switch it better than most sides I've seen. But then we don't know what to do. And this is the point where I think we suffer most. Players are attacking the box. And Isgrove wastes it. But Issy isn't the only one, Kachunga, Jones, Sarce, Sheehan even Dapo they've all this season not made the most of openings like this that we ceate regularly.
- GhostoftheBok
- Legend
- Posts: 6826
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm
Re: Tactics
Yes on that one here too. Same goes for quick ball across. Our entire playing style is designed to drag defenders over to one side so we can get an overload on the other, we then don't use them. In fairness, the Pompey defender has taken up a good position to make the cross difficult - meaning it'd need whipping around him. Also, in defence of Izzy, he looks to pick out the right runner once he is closed, but his execution is poor. If he gets it right then we have a free shot from the penalty spot.
Our delivery from wide right is consistently poor and it's probably why we don't see them try more difficult balls in. I am fairly sure Jones and Izzy both mentioned it last season as the part of their game they most wanted to improve. Confidence is likely an issue.
Our delivery from wide right is consistently poor and it's probably why we don't see them try more difficult balls in. I am fairly sure Jones and Izzy both mentioned it last season as the part of their game they most wanted to improve. Confidence is likely an issue.
- brommers95
- Reliable
- Posts: 864
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:10 pm
Re: Tactics
Does seem like we often take one too many touches, almost as if the players have been told to not whip the ball in first time but I'm sure that can't be the case. Maybe it's a lack of confidence in their crossing ability or a lack of confidence in the ability of their teammates to get onto the end of a ball flashed across the face of goal?BWFC_Insane wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:17 amWhilst we're on tactics BWFC Analysis on twitter has pretty much for me summed up the majority of our attacking problems in one superb and excellent video tweet.
https://twitter.com/analysis_bwfc/statu ... 20458?s=20
This to me sums us up. Lovely play, create space - then whoever is in said space (bar maybe Declan John) take far far too many touches before delivering a pass or a shot or a cross. Its a consistent problem. The best chance of scoring goals in modern football is EARLY delivery having worked the opportunity with bodies in the box. But when we get bodies in the box the cross is too late. If I was to sum up why our attacks are often useless its this. We work the ball well. We switch it better than most sides I've seen. But then we don't know what to do. And this is the point where I think we suffer most. Players are attacking the box. And Isgrove wastes it. But Issy isn't the only one, Kachunga, Jones, Sarce, Sheehan even Dapo they've all this season not made the most of openings like this that we ceate regularly.
- Dave Sutton's barnet
- Immortal
- Posts: 28701
- Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
- Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
- Contact:
Re: Tactics
It's either an explicit instruction (why?) or a lack of imagination. Normally you'd try different things just to keep the oppo guessing. If we never cross early then they know they've got time to reshuffle.
- BWFC_Insane
- Immortal
- Posts: 36184
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm
Re: Tactics
Sometimes modern coaches and players overthink football in my view. Allardyce’s POMO theory and putting the ball into them as early and as many times as possible wouldn’t go amiss with this lot. You can’t score a goal taking an extra pass and just increase the likelihood of the move breaking down.
- Worthy4England
- Immortal
- Posts: 32469
- Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm
Re: Tactics
We do it that often, it feels more like the former than the latter. It might not be as explicit as "don't cross early" but rather "If A, B or C don't apply, don't cross" so they don't...Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:17 pmIt's either an explicit instruction (why?) or a lack of imagination. Normally you'd try different things just to keep the oppo guessing. If we never cross early then they know they've got time to reshuffle.
Re: Tactics
Part of me wonders if it's bodies in the box. Those who have ratched several times will more likely know but my "feel" is that a lot of the time we get in, it's down the right, and it's come from Dapo cutting in, committing people and then spreading it. The right winger has usually come in to make the space and so that only leaves Doyle as the one in the box. Wonder if a) switch back to playing a 10 would help it b) the right winger and two 8s need to get in the box more.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.
- Dave Sutton's barnet
- Immortal
- Posts: 28701
- Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
- Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
- Contact:
Re: Tactics
to both the above - aye. Interesting stuff. Read a fascinating thing this morning on The Athletic about Antonio Conte's patterns of play, and how much he drills them into his forwards as well as his defenders: there are certain "moves" to be applied at certain situations. You might not think top-level coaches/players are as structured as that but they certainly seem to be in his case.
https://theathletic.com/2930267/2021/11 ... -martinez/ (£)
https://theathletic.com/2930267/2021/11 ... -martinez/ (£)
- BWFC_Insane
- Immortal
- Posts: 36184
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm
Re: Tactics
Sometimes definitely. But we had an overload in the example I posted. So when we get numbers in the box the ball either doesn't come or takes too long.Prufrock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 amPart of me wonders if it's bodies in the box. Those who have ratched several times will more likely know but my "feel" is that a lot of the time we get in, it's down the right, and it's come from Dapo cutting in, committing people and then spreading it. The right winger has usually come in to make the space and so that only leaves Doyle as the one in the box. Wonder if a) switch back to playing a 10 would help it b) the right winger and two 8s need to get in the box more.
Sheffield Wednesday the last 10 minutes we had numbers forward as they sat deep. The deliveries were too slow or didn't happen. Often we work a position then pass back and the player in the less advantageous position in frustration just lumps it in and it is easily cleared. The exception for me is Declan John who more often than not will find a delivery (though he has a habit of passing backwards sometimes too).
- Worthy4England
- Immortal
- Posts: 32469
- Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm
Re: Tactics
Yeah, this last point. At the point that Izzy or Jones could cross first time, we often feel short of numbers in the middle, and often Doyle has pulled people out left, to create space for Dapo to come in. The 8's haven't fully committed in case of a turn over, so are at best on the 18 yard, so there's not much option but to play triangles on the apex of the box.Prufrock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 amPart of me wonders if it's bodies in the box. Those who have ratched several times will more likely know but my "feel" is that a lot of the time we get in, it's down the right, and it's come from Dapo cutting in, committing people and then spreading it. The right winger has usually come in to make the space and so that only leaves Doyle as the one in the box. Wonder if a) switch back to playing a 10 would help it b) the right winger and two 8s need to get in the box more.
- GhostoftheBok
- Legend
- Posts: 6826
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm
Re: Tactics
The geeks won in football, ages ago. Top level coaching is nerdy and detail-oriented. Every top manager is like this, or has coaches he hands this stuff off to. This is the stuff that makes Arteta so highly rated, because this is where he really is a brilliant coach - the issue is whether he can man manage well enough to get the players executing it.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:07 amto both the above - aye. Interesting stuff. Read a fascinating thing this morning on The Athletic about Antonio Conte's patterns of play, and how much he drills them into his forwards as well as his defenders: there are certain "moves" to be applied at certain situations. You might not think top-level coaches/players are as structured as that but they certainly seem to be in his case.
https://theathletic.com/2930267/2021/11 ... -martinez/ (£)
I've been saying for a while that our pattern play hasn't been good enough. You can see the drills, but they've not been running them properly. It was better vs Dale.
- TANGODANCER
- Immortal
- Posts: 43267
- Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
- Location: Between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light penny candles from stars.
Re: Tactics
Morning...Creeps quietly in since age and a villain called Arthur Itis, got signed from Wolverhampton or somewhere, so not a lot to say of much use, but a long-standing moan for me has always been DEFEND YOUR FAR POSTS! It isnt an order to a foreign Legionaire in North Africa, but a simple statement to full backs. I used to howl myself hoarse in the past at the way the likes of Gretar Steinsson and Henrik Pedersen and a few after them constantly got sucked into the box from opposite wing corners and crosses (leaving space behind them that a housing developer would rub his hands at) I wonder what the stats would be on how many goals we've conceded in the millennium alone because we didn't defend the posts? It isn't rocket science, DEFEND YOUR FAR POST!!
That's all..
That's all..
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?
- Dave Sutton's barnet
- Immortal
- Posts: 28701
- Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
- Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
- Contact:
Re: Tactics
Evatt has mentioned Wanderers 2.0 and nobody will be too surprised that it focuses on being on the front foot...
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... ing-clean/I think he [Dion Charles] is going to give us some electric pace in behind. His work ethic and his out of possession stuff is exceptional and we’ve done a lot of work, and I don’t know if you’ve noticed today on the front three and the way we pressed the ball.
For me Liverpool at the moment are the best team at it and their front three, the amount of balls they win high up the pitch and then they turn defence into attack, transition positions, I think once we regain the ball then we are in better positions to go and attack and score and it takes pressure off the back and midfield lads.
The more pressure you get on the ball, the less quality comes forward. At times this season, especially the last couple of months, I think what’s happened is our wide forwards have been doing too much work defensively and tracking back too far, trying to overcover full-backs. Then when we win the ball back, they’ve got to beat six, seven, eight men before we can get in the back of the net.
Here what we’re trying to do now is get the ball won high up the pitch but get them high up the pitch to go and hurt the opposition and score. I thought we saw that a few times first half [at Rotherham], we had a couple of opportunities we should have done better with and second half, we obviously fatigued because it’s hard work to do that, but we’ll get better at it, we’ve got bodies coming in the building that can help us do it and Dion’s one of those.
- BWFC_Insane
- Immortal
- Posts: 36184
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm
Re: Tactics
He’s right. Our press has been very poor after the first 10 games or so. But I suspect it’s down to legs and energy to do it. And confidence as teams showed they were better at that game than we were. Wigan noticeably showed us how to play that game.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:25 amEvatt has mentioned Wanderers 2.0 and nobody will be too surprised that it focuses on being on the front foot...
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... ing-clean/I think he [Dion Charles] is going to give us some electric pace in behind. His work ethic and his out of possession stuff is exceptional and we’ve done a lot of work, and I don’t know if you’ve noticed today on the front three and the way we pressed the ball.
For me Liverpool at the moment are the best team at it and their front three, the amount of balls they win high up the pitch and then they turn defence into attack, transition positions, I think once we regain the ball then we are in better positions to go and attack and score and it takes pressure off the back and midfield lads.
The more pressure you get on the ball, the less quality comes forward. At times this season, especially the last couple of months, I think what’s happened is our wide forwards have been doing too much work defensively and tracking back too far, trying to overcover full-backs. Then when we win the ball back, they’ve got to beat six, seven, eight men before we can get in the back of the net.
Here what we’re trying to do now is get the ball won high up the pitch but get them high up the pitch to go and hurt the opposition and score. I thought we saw that a few times first half [at Rotherham], we had a couple of opportunities we should have done better with and second half, we obviously fatigued because it’s hard work to do that, but we’ll get better at it, we’ve got bodies coming in the building that can help us do it and Dion’s one of those.
But the biggest thing to make that work is more legs and presence in midfield. You won’t have an effective press without some real machines in midfield who cover ground and win their battles. For me what’s happened over time is we’ve lost that midfield energy and teams have gradually found more and more space. I think we need some athletes and specimens if we are to play that sort of press. Holden and Muamba together were the best we’ve had at this sort of football and probably the sorts we need in midfield if we are to make this work. You also need pace at the back and that’s lacking.
- Dave Sutton's barnet
- Immortal
- Posts: 28701
- Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
- Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
- Contact:
Re: Tactics
Interesting couple of tweets posted by lower-league-focused site D3D4Football:
Over the course of the league season, we've had the division's seventh-most "entrances into the opponents' box" and the fourth most chances created. Yet 12 teams have scored more than us, and indeed we've failed to scored in 11 of 23 league games (only Donny are higher).
Evatt's right with this week's warning to the forwards that they have to buck up. (For the purposes of clarity, so do the defenders.)
Over the course of the league season, we've had the division's seventh-most "entrances into the opponents' box" and the fourth most chances created. Yet 12 teams have scored more than us, and indeed we've failed to scored in 11 of 23 league games (only Donny are higher).
Evatt's right with this week's warning to the forwards that they have to buck up. (For the purposes of clarity, so do the defenders.)
- GhostoftheBok
- Legend
- Posts: 6826
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm
Re: Tactics
Our XG has been good all season and our XGA hasn't been awful. What we are seeing is a lot more individual errors than other sides around us.
As a coach that's when you look at the quality and attitude of your squad more than your own tactics.
At the same time, Evatt can take the blame for set pieces and a number of other issues.
I still feel his basic tactical approach is fine, or will be once he has a squad available again.
As a coach that's when you look at the quality and attitude of your squad more than your own tactics.
At the same time, Evatt can take the blame for set pieces and a number of other issues.
I still feel his basic tactical approach is fine, or will be once he has a squad available again.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 168 guests