Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:25 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:21 am
brommers95 wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:02 am
Was Gethin Jones the glue that was holding it all together?
I think some people on twitter and such are trying too hard, to be honest.

We are bedding in Johnston and Dixon. Having three other lads in the back four who knew the system helped a bit, but even then we were ropey. Still, the lads in front were okay with that was behind them and the supporting runs worked so we carried a threat.

Then we get injuries and suddenly we are bedding in Dixon and Johnston AND carrying Gordon and Brocky as they learn their trade. So at that stage we are going to get pasted by good sides. The fullbacks are vital so when those runs aren't good our attacking play is way too slow and we can't cut butter.

The dressing room was sold as a big reason we were doing well last season, then the captain is suddenly gone in a firestorm. So we're in trouble again. In losing him we also lose our only real mobility in the middle.

We take on Pompey with a bizarre set up that we'd never usually try and it's a bit better than the previous few games, but we still can't cut butter - not least because nobody in the final third can thread a pass.

We've gone up a level and not improved the 11 much, we've lost leaders we've not replaced, our captain has walked, we've had players missing and we've not added a single real goal threat (in fact, one of our main ones just went). Of course we're struggling.

P.S I am aware I'm posting too much tonight, but I just adopted 4 cats and they need babysitting whilst they settle in.
A Good summary of of our current predicament. How do we get out this slump and survive in L1 is the big question.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:50 am

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:25 am
A Good summary of of our current predicament. How do we get out this slump and survive in L1 is the big question.
I'm watching the Pompey game back at the minute and it is just reinforcing for me how bad Williams has been recently. Taking up awful positions, getting turned easily, playing hospital balls, moaning at everyone around him when he makes a mistake....he's been like this for a few games now and needs to sort it out. He does get isolated as some on here have pointed out, but there's no getting away from the fact that he's just bad at the moment.

A lot of this slump will be turned around by the supposedly reliable players like Williams and Doyle sorting themselves out. For all the talk of Doyle not getting the right service (true) when it does come in he's consistently making the wrong runs. His press is also wrong....I mean he runs around, but he's not cutting off angles or reacting to the same triggers as the other players. Those two are going to be vital until January and they need to step up.

For all the slating he's getting, our best forward in that game was Kachunga - from a coaching point of view. He battled, his pressing was mostly right, he created some good openings, he made some decent runs (he's getting better by the game for that) and he was the only player on the pitch who always made himself available to receive. He's not the type of lad to win you a match on his own, but as a piece in a puzzle he'd have been fine had other players been on it. He does look like a guy who has no real confidence in himself as a goal threat, though. Dapo was the obviously more dangerous player with good runs and a couple of decent efforts, but a lot of his general play was terrible yesterday.

If we can get the back four settled again and get Williams back to where he should be then that should help immensely.

What's good about that is that it means we are partially in this situation because players we know can be better are not at it and that means the team can improve without additions. We still need signings ASAP, but we can be a lot better if the senior figures have a word with themselves.

*edit* Also worth noting that, given our discussion about Sheehan earlier, he was excellent when he came off the bench. So good, in fact, that Pompey brought on Joe Morell just to man mark him. They didn't play Morell due to a groin injury, but were forced to because Sheehan was making too much happen for us in the middle.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by The_Gun » Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:02 am

Thanks for that summary, Ghost. I didn’t watch the game yesterday, but your conclusions on our current predicament seem logical.

I think we probably need three players in the window in order to stabilise and achieve mid table safety. We were all mostly in agreement at the start of the season that our starting XI was decent but we didn’t have much depth, and that lack of depth has been ruthlessly exposed by Jones’ injury and the Sarcevic debacle.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:23 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:50 am
irie Cee Bee wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:25 am
A Good summary of of our current predicament. How do we get out this slump and survive in L1 is the big question.
I'm watching the Pompey game back at the minute and it is just reinforcing for me how bad Williams has been recently. Taking up awful positions, getting turned easily, playing hospital balls, moaning at everyone around him when he makes a mistake....he's been like this for a few games now and needs to sort it out. He does get isolated as some on here have pointed out, but there's no getting away from the fact that he's just bad at the moment.

A lot of this slump will be turned around by the supposedly reliable players like Williams and Doyle sorting themselves out. For all the talk of Doyle not getting the right service (true) when it does come in he's consistently making the wrong runs. His press is also wrong....I mean he runs around, but he's not cutting off angles or reacting to the same triggers as the other players. Those two are going to be vital until January and they need to step up.

For all the slating he's getting, our best forward in that game was Kachunga - from a coaching point of view. He battled, his pressing was mostly right, he created some good openings, he made some decent runs (he's getting better by the game for that) and he was the only player on the pitch who always made himself available to receive. He's not the type of lad to win you a match on his own, but as a piece in a puzzle he'd have been fine had other players been on it. He does look like a guy who has no real confidence in himself as a goal threat, though. Dapo was the obviously more dangerous player with good runs and a couple of decent efforts, but a lot of his general play was terrible yesterday.

If we can get the back four settled again and get Williams back to where he should be then that should help immensely.

What's good about that is that it means we are partially in this situation because players we know can be better are not at it and that means the team can improve without additions. We still need signings ASAP, but we can be a lot better if the senior figures have a word with themselves.

*edit* Also worth noting that, given our discussion about Sheehan earlier, he was excellent when he came off the bench. So good, in fact, that Pompey brought on Joe Morell just to man mark him. They didn't play Morell due to a groin injury, but were forced to because Sheehan was making too much happen for us in the middle.
Footballs a game of opinions but I pretty much think everything you’ve said here I disagree with. And seemingly so does most other people who have watched us yesterday and in recent times. Including IE. Williams absolutely didn’t have his best game yesterday but as usual he was let down by the fact he’s the only one in midfield and can’t do it by himself. We need other midfield players to actually do a job in there and offer the all round game a midfield player has to in the modern game. If you can’t cover ground, offer physicality, win the ball, intercept then you are useless. Even Evatt has said in recent times the only player who has done themselves justice is MJ. And pretty much every game I watch he’s trying to do it by himself with Lee occasionally chipping in.

Sheehan was completely anonymous yesterday and even Marc Iles mentions this. He had zero impact. If you are trying to suggest he did then this must be absolutely something you are looking for. As I watched the game I got a message on 80 minutes from my mate there which said ‘is Sheehan on or did he forget?’.

Kachunga is a waste of space. You can do all the things you should but he lacks any punch or pace or anything to suggest that he’s offers any threat. I could run according to the coaching manual. I’d not be worth a place though.

We are in danger of over analysis. We started well with momentum and adrenaline kicked us on. But the bubble has burst and we are struggling now and reverting to the mean. We don’t have lots of players proven at this level and one that was and our leader and captain has gone after some obvious bust up behind the scenes. Ignoring the rights and wrongs and adding in a few injuries we are a poor side right now. It’s not unexpected either. I’m fairly certain the 11 we are playing don’t have much more to give in terms of effort so we need injuries back, confidence back and a rebuild in January.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:24 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:21 am
I am aware I'm posting too much tonight
Don't apologise. Do more. It's nice to read thought-out posts. I don't always agree with every line, but I enjoy reading them and considering the issues you raise.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:36 pm

I've read lots of words that all say "It's not working." We can weave them any way that suits. Fcuking single pivots, double pivots and the like, management bullshit, like in any other job. Only thing that counts is win, lose and draw. There's only one bloke who has the job to make it so and tbh, I don't listen much to what he says, rather than watch our results. Needs to get a grip.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:17 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:36 pm
I've read lots of words that all say "It's not working." We can weave them any way that suits. Fcuking single pivots, double pivots and the like, management bullshit, like in any other job. Only thing that counts is win, lose and draw. There's only one bloke who has the job to make it so and tbh, I don't listen much to what he says, rather than watch our results. Needs to get a grip.
Yeah. This. Lots of talk about stuff that doesn’t really impact results. We are failing at either end of the pitch. And what we do in between is irrelevant if that continues.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:34 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:23 am
Footballs a game of opinions but I pretty much think everything you’ve said here I disagree with.
Good. Would be less fun on here otherwise. I expect a lot of people to disagree with me on this one. I even went back and checked, because you are entirely right that "looking for it" is an issue with reviewing performances.

As for Sheehan being invisible, it's just not the case. I do get it and I have no problem taking stick for it. After he came on and before they put Morell on him he had the second most ball involvements of any Bolton player, after Santos (15 for Santos, 10 for Sheehan and 8 for John by my count). He was on the ball twice as much as Lee, he was involved in more challenges than any other Bolton player (joint with Kachunga, but Sheehan won more) and he was available to receive more often than anyone beyond the back 5. Was he involved enough for a midfield playmaker? No. The trouble is, that wasn't because of his play.

Our play recently has been bypassing the midfield, so he and Lee were going to struggle in that situation - but he was clearly the busiest of our advanced players in that period. He also created a chance for Lee and caused two other good openings. Now I'll accept that calling a midfielder "excellent" for just being the best one in a poor game that bypasses the midfield a lot can lead to people throwing fruit from the cheap seats, which is fair enough. Hyperbole perhaps...but Pompey took stock of what he was doing and put a man on him for a reason. Once that happened it opened space in the midfield for other players, but we didn't use it. For 20 minutes we had the chance to take control of that match, because we finally had passing options in midfield. We consistently ignored them.

As for Williams, he is absolutely vital to what we do. He's just being really sloppy at the minute. It's not just him, we're clearly all off it - but if certain players aren't at it we will really struggle. One of the reasons we have been garbage recently is we're not implementing that fundamental "through the compartments" style of play. Defence - Midfield - Attack. Almost all our play is between the back 5 (or 6, including Dixon) and then we go long and lose out. It's up to Williams and Rico to force those patterns on the team, but they're not at the moment. John is the only one in the back four who is consistently trying to play the right patterns.

There's a lot to sort out.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:45 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:23 am
I’m fairly certain the 11 we are playing don’t have much more to give in terms of effort so we need injuries back, confidence back and a rebuild in January.
This was worth doing separately, because it's important. They are trying and you are right they can't give much more in terms of sweat. They do look to have lost confidence, but my real concern is they seem to have lost confidence in the system and not themselves. Doyle, Williams etc know they can play. They're not losing their heads on the ball or giving it away as fast as they possibly can. They're also not hiding. What they're not doing is playing the patterns that we were at the end of last season and start of this one.

It is hopefully a case of "a couple of wins and everyone is fine again", but it could easily spiral into "Look, gaffer, your style isn't working" and at that point we will have a real problem.

*edit* Worth throwing in that that's basically what Evatt said after the game. We're not lacking in desire off the ball to get stuck in if needed, but we aren't playing the style of football we have to to win games. It's a different kind of bravery, confidence and belief. If he loses that from the players he's in bother.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:52 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:45 pm
It is hopefully a case of "a couple of wins and everyone is fine again", but it could easily spiral into "Look, gaffer, your style isn't working" and at that point we will have a real problem.
But do you think - and here we may have to slip into conjecture rather than analysis - that the gaffer has changed his style? You say we're "bypassing the midfield" rather than passing through the compartments in the previous patterns of play. Do you think that's come from the manager? That he's trying to somehow "mix it up" but it's not working?

Or do you think the players are abandoning the patterns out of frustration, or fear, or mutiny?

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:57 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:52 pm
But do you think - and here we may have to slip into conjecture rather than analysis - that the gaffer has changed his style? You say we're "bypassing the midfield" rather than passing through the compartments in the previous patterns of play. Do you think that's come from the manager? That he's trying to somehow "mix it up" but it's not working?

Or do you think the players are abandoning the patterns out of frustration, or fear, or mutiny?
My take, from what Evatt is saying, is that we have basically lost confidence in the patterns. In his post match he said "we're no built to go direct" and that players need to be brave in possession and want the ball.

We have lost games both ways, but we do look worse when we fail to play the system.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:00 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:45 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:23 am
I’m fairly certain the 11 we are playing don’t have much more to give in terms of effort so we need injuries back, confidence back and a rebuild in January.
This was worth doing separately, because it's important. They are trying and you are right they can't give much more in terms of sweat. They do look to have lost confidence, but my real concern is they seem to have lost confidence in the system and not themselves. Doyle, Williams etc know they can play. They're not losing their heads on the ball or giving it away as fast as they possibly can. They're also not hiding. What they're not doing is playing the patterns that we were at the end of last season and start of this one.

It is hopefully a case of "a couple of wins and everyone is fine again", but it could easily spiral into "Look, gaffer, your style isn't working" and at that point we will have a real problem.

*edit* Worth throwing in that that's basically what Evatt said after the game. We're not lacking in desire off the ball to get stuck in if needed, but we aren't playing the style of football we have to to win games. It's a different kind of bravery, confidence and belief. If he loses that from the players he's in bother.
Evatt said they lacked desire or something like that. Desire on the ball. The problem is arguably confidence though I worry mainly what has happened behind the scenes as we’ve gone rather rapidly from looking a very good side even in defeat at Sheffield Weds to one that has all the hallmarks of relegation a few weeks later.

Sarce going to me doesn’t seem like an isolated he and a manger fell out and possibly points to some issue that has eroded spirit further.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:19 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:00 pm
Evatt said they lacked desire or something like that. Desire on the ball. The problem is arguably confidence though I worry mainly what has happened behind the scenes as we’ve gone rather rapidly from looking a very good side even in defeat at Sheffield Weds to one that has all the hallmarks of relegation a few weeks later.

Sarce going to me doesn’t seem like an isolated he and a manger fell out and possibly points to some issue that has eroded spirit further.
Yeah, that's possible.

My suspicion is that certain key players went to the boss and said they wanted to change to a style that better suited their attributes and Evatt said no. It escalated and Sarce's position became untenable.

All conjecture, but that's how I've felt about it since it happened. I think you've seen that tension on the pitch and heard it in things IE has said after games.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:20 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:00 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:45 pm
Worth throwing in that that's basically what Evatt said after the game. We're not lacking in desire off the ball to get stuck in if needed, but we aren't playing the style of football we have to to win games. It's a different kind of bravery, confidence and belief. If he loses that from the players he's in bother.
Evatt said they lacked desire or something like that.
Considering you two are claiming the manager said opposite things from the same quote, it might be helpful to actually find that quote.

These are lifted in full from Iles's Evatt post-match presser write-up.
It has been a perfect storm – we have had injuries, suspensions, unavailability, mistakes that have cost us games. We haven’t taken our chances and we have been hit. When all of that comes together you end up on a bad run, there’s no denying it, but we have to keep fighting and showing strong will.

We haven’t got a plan B because we don’t have the options at the minute, but we can’t just go direct because we are not built for it. We have got to get back to doing what we do. And because of the run we are on, we lack a bit of confidence, which you saw when we conceded the goal. Players don’t accept the ball where they should and so we don’t dominate the ball like we can.

In your good spells you have to score, especially in tough places like this. Second half it is a really poor goal from a mistake, When you are on this type of run and have the injuries and illnesses we have then everything seems to go against you. We had no options to change it – had to bring on defenders for fresh legs because the lads who were trying to play haven’t played for so long.

It is a rough run at the moment but now we have a two-week break in the league and we have to make sure we win our cup games, build up some form in the league and get some confidence and belief. We hit the bar twice and hit the post. We conceded a very, very poor goal and that is no criticism of Joel, he has been excellent for us – it’s probably his first big mistake but it is one that cost us today.

Will [Aimson] did really well before he ran out of energy and we needed some impetus but I had to bring on two defenders because I had nobody else. I had no forward players, they are all injured or unavailable. It never rains but it pours sometimes and we have to stick together. We have been through this type of run before and we will do it again.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:22 pm

This is the one I was thinking of:

https://fb.watch/8_rzTnFLYX/

"...not out of possession, but in possession."

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:46 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:19 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:00 pm
Evatt said they lacked desire or something like that. Desire on the ball. The problem is arguably confidence though I worry mainly what has happened behind the scenes as we’ve gone rather rapidly from looking a very good side even in defeat at Sheffield Weds to one that has all the hallmarks of relegation a few weeks later.

Sarce going to me doesn’t seem like an isolated he and a manger fell out and possibly points to some issue that has eroded spirit further.
Yeah, that's possible.

My suspicion is that certain key players went to the boss and said they wanted to change to a style that better suited their attributes and Evatt said no. It escalated and Sarce's position became untenable.

All conjecture, but that's how I've felt about it since it happened. I think you've seen that tension on the pitch and heard it in things IE has said after games.
I don’t think it’s anything to do with style. Everyone has been seemingly happy with project Evatt.

My guess is Evatt lost his rag post Sheffield Weds after we’d failed to convert the possession into a win and some players took the hump. And then his post match comments which reflected a man who’d lost some control of his own emotions went down in the camp like a lead balloon ahead of the pressure of Wigan. That would be my guess.

And DSB Evatts comments about more fight, spirit and desire being needed are in the official club interview here….

https://youtu.be/VlhF6giijmo

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:31 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:46 pm
I don’t think it’s anything to do with style. Everyone has been seemingly happy with project Evatt.

My guess is Evatt lost his rag post Sheffield Weds after we’d failed to convert the possession into a win and some players took the hump. And then his post match comments which reflected a man who’d lost some control of his own emotions went down in the camp like a lead balloon ahead of the pressure of Wigan. That would be my guess.
As plausible a theory as any.

Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes, we need to start seeing evidence of the coaching staff fixing it.

As was said earlier, it's fun to analyse stuff, but it no longer matters what is going wrong. It just needs to start going right.

I'd like to be able to enjoy watching games again, rather than suffering through them.

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:31 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:46 pm
I don’t think it’s anything to do with style. Everyone has been seemingly happy with project Evatt.

My guess is Evatt lost his rag post Sheffield Weds after we’d failed to convert the possession into a win and some players took the hump. And then his post match comments which reflected a man who’d lost some control of his own emotions went down in the camp like a lead balloon ahead of the pressure of Wigan. That would be my guess.
As plausible a theory as any.

Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes, we need to start seeing evidence of the coaching staff fixing it.

As was said earlier, it's fun to analyse stuff, but it no longer matters what is going wrong. It just needs to start going right.

I'd like to be able to enjoy watching games again, rather than suffering through them.
We have National League level coaches (Barrow) basically coaching league 2 level players, it ain't going to improve any time soon IMO

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:55 pm

In the course of work, I just happened across this on The Athletic - it's about Football Manager but it seems apt enough...
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Screenshot 2021-10-31 at 18.53.26.png
Screenshot 2021-10-31 at 18.53.26.png (217.44 KiB) Viewed 1061 times

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Re: Pompey and Circumstances...V. Portsmouth away Sat 30th Oct 3.O'clock

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:57 pm

I appreciated Evatt's candour in acknowledging we have no Plan B but if I'm honest, I find that unimpressive. We need greater flexibility when either the opposition are very strong or the ability of the players available to us demands more basic tactical instruction, and I think it's a false dichotomy to present the options as being between our current tactical approach and "going long".

We rely on overlapping full-backs to provide the width but we don't currently have one on the right good enough to do the job. We could perhaps try and hide that by asking Brocky to play as a staid full-back and asking Isgrove to protect the space ahead of him. It would limit our attacking threat down the right hand side but it might make us harder to beat. Instead we persist with the idea of overlapping full-backs and try to get round the problem by playing our our best right winger (no goals and no assists from fifteen league matches; an indictment in itself) out of position and the ineffective Kachunga further forward. It's no surprise we conceded in the way we did yesterday.

The same argument can probably be made about us playing with a six and two eights rather than the double pivot, something which, to be fair, I think Evat might now be coming to terms with.

I applaud Evatt's footballing philosophy but I think circumstances have dictated a dose of pragmatism was required and we've been found wanting. It concerns me that the plan is to just keep trying the same thing but doing it better because, as others have stated, I don't think the squad of players we have to work with, bar a few exceptions, have much scope to improve. It also concerns me because I'm yet to be convinced our intent to dominate possession is to our advantage. I feel our players lack the talent to create the space to bring about enough quality goal-scoring opportunities and it may just be in our favour sometimes to adopt a strategy of trying to hit teams on the counter.

It's clear, though, that we're going to persevere with our current tactical approach. I think it might prove to be the case that rather than us having to perform better to turn our poor run of firm round, our opponents have to become worse.

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