Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

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Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:18 am

We are all rightly worried about our form at the moment. We are probably all looking at the table, then the fixture list, then the calendar and wondering where we will be in ‘x’ games. We analyse the squad and the tactics, make sage pronouncements about how to win games and speculate about recruitment in the next window. All that is fundamental to how a lot of football fans spend 5-6 days every week – but the reason we go through it all is for the thrill of the match day.

Evatt has been talking about “bravery in possession” and getting back to “what we do” – I think it’s important. Some people will hang on the manager’s every interview, whilst some will dismiss them as empty words; personally, I think the notion of a club style and team identity is worth embracing.

We are in League One, not currently pulling up any trees and coming off the back of probably the worst crisis in the club’s history. It is likely to be many, many years before we can realistically start a season dreaming those big football dreams of lifting proper cups (sorry, FA Trophy, but not you) or playing in Europe, as we did under Sam and Bruce. Yes, it’s nearly 70 years since we won a cup, but we’ve lived with the hope of another a few times down the years and we started many seasons talking about what we could achieve, not what we had to avoid.

Until we can chase real glory, what we need is, I think, genuine entertainment on a Saturday afternoon (or Tuesday night, for that matter). Players who gets bums off seats, a group of lads who will play for the shirt and football that can give us all a bit of pride. There are different ways to achieve that – Bruce, Sam and Evatt all have contrasting approaches to the game, but at its best all their football ignites the blood and make you stand that bit taller. Evatt is some way from getting his brand of football fully established here, but we can all see where he wants us to go.

Recently “Evattball” has lost some of that charm. Over the course of several games the play became turgid, then ineffective and finally dross - becoming reminiscent of his early tenure. It is obviously vital to get wins on the board, but it’s also important that the match day becomes fun again; because the joy and memory of it is the only lasting reward we are going to have for a while. For the first time in ages we have a footballing identity that the fans have bought into and that has made them proud of the club. We need that to still be the case come the end of the season.

As we chat about how to fix what is broken, we shouldn’t lose sight of why we want it fixing. FV seem to know what they are doing with the business side of things. The club no longer seems to be in imminent danger and we’re unlikely to be at risk of going into non-league again. This is no longer “we are fixing it to save the club”, now we want things fixed so we can once again experience the joy of football. Winning is primary to that, but winning playing “our way” should be the goal. We may well lose games on the back of playing in an expansive, aggressive style – but if we do we should lose thrillers. The opposition should leave thanking their lucky stars they got the points.

At it’s best, this new way of playing has been genuinely exciting and we should, in this case, listen to the manager. It may be that it falls apart and Evatt eventually wanders off into the long grass, but he has got to be allowed to live and die by his footballing principals. Backing this particular manager means backing those principals. You can’t want Evatt to stay, but also call for more conservative football. This was always the deal we made when hiring this coach.

Right now the call has to be for more bravery on the ball, more tempo, more adventure and more adherence to what is now “The Bolton Way”…

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:53 am

Interesting read. And yes, I agree. While I completely understand the impatience, which on a run like this builds to suspicion and anger, we do have to go on a journey. And as even one of the most pessimistic posters here was moved to ask during the good run, are we at the start of something special? Possibly. That’s the hope that keeps us coming back. It’s currently curdling to something like fear (sometimes, as it often is, masked my anger) but the main way to kill fear is with faith. Faith is the absence of fear, and fear is the absence of faith.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:43 am

Winning games is ultimately all that matters. Style never ever must come at the expense of winning games. You can see where our issues lie and if we're brutally honest with ourselves those issues were present at the start of the season even when we did well. A slightly wobbly spine, a very porous backline and an inability to really turn possession into clear chances and then goals.

The style of play is not an issue. I don't think we concede many goals because we play out from the back. The problem is because we have only one way of playing with the players we have we are predictable and when it doesn't work we have nothing to change it. I also think the problem is that the way we play requires everyone to produce quality and when that doesn't happen as it inevitably will sometimes it falls apart.

I see absolutely no point in going direct but we need to tweak our game to have less passes in and around the box and earlier better delivery. We also need to find a way to shore up the defensive mess that is beginning to be a bit Owen Coylesque in that we concede more or less the same soft goals every week and never change it. And that either has to be because the manager and coaches aren't up to it or the players. I suspect the latter but Evatt should change the rhetoric about our defending and start demanding more.

The thing is you can't take the praise for style when things go well but hide behind it when they don't. It's a results game and we're at a point where we need to start digging in and getting results however we can. That means possibly working very hard to keep clean sheets initially and building from there. When you're low on confidence you cannot expect to go and score 4 goals so you have to start from the first principle of conceding 0 gives you a point at the least. And work on the margins, set pieces, crosses, in both boxes because these are the areas where you win or lose.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:48 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:53 am
Interesting read. And yes, I agree. While I completely understand the impatience, which on a run like this builds to suspicion and anger, we do have to go on a journey. And as even one of the most pessimistic posters here was moved to ask during the good run, are we at the start of something special? Possibly. That’s the hope that keeps us coming back. It’s currently curdling to something like fear (sometimes, as it often is, masked my anger) but the main way to kill fear is with faith. Faith is the absence of fear, and fear is the absence of faith.
Doesn't that post and the replies suggest I'm not that pessimistic? I have a very good 6th sense for when we're in real trouble or when there are problems. I don't think we are right now in massive trouble BUT there are warning signs and they shouldn't be ignored. The club need to take stock of the considerable progress but not get sidetracked by 'we had a good start' or 'we play nice football' they need to improve because we're not as competitive in this league as I think our start suggested and I think the evidence is strong enough to suggest the start was the outlier.

I think mid table this season would be a very very good season and we need to get to January with some more points then re-assess and improve the squad. The reality is that something has clearly happened with the squad and manager and whilst we'll never know everyone knew his post match after Sheffield Wednesday was not good and that has definitely had some impact somehow. But he's young and learning so we can live with that so long as he learns and grows.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:17 am

You mean play more Papa John than Mama Cass? :D
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:23 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:43 am
Winning games is ultimately all that matters

That means possibly working very hard to keep clean sheets initially and building from there.

And work on the margins, set pieces, crosses, in both boxes because these are the areas where you win or lose.
I don't disagree with these main points, but I think that in order to achieve this the response has to be radically different than what we'd traditionally expect.

Our defensive approach under Evatt is keeping the ball. That European concept of "if we have it, they can't hurt us" is the fundamental currency of his side. As he keeps saying, it's the transitions - and more pointedly, when they occur - that are killing us. He will live and die in this job by whether he he is right on that call.

There is no way to do the traditional "keep a clean sheet" job and still play Evatt's football. We can't respond to conceding goals like Sam would have, or even like Owen should have.

The thing with "work the margins" is that that's exactly what this style of football is supposed to be. All the celebrated modern coaches are playing statistical football, they are just using different (and better researched) metrics than was the case 10-15 years ago.

Regardless of whether it's Conte, Klopp, Guardiola or anyone, these days the primary defensive focus is on breaking up or preventing opposition transitions (thanks, Jose, for that one). It's why most clubs now take throw-ins back and not forwards, for example. It's also why Barca's "6 second rule" has become almost universally applied at top clubs - 6 seconds is about how long it takes to reorganise a well-drilled side from attacking to defensive shape, so you need to contain transition play for that long (we are not doing that, nor are we shifting back fast enough).

Set pieces, 100%. Ours are truly awful too often. Delivery has improved marginally at times, but the routines are nothingness on a plate.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:23 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:43 am
Winning games is ultimately all that matters

That means possibly working very hard to keep clean sheets initially and building from there.

And work on the margins, set pieces, crosses, in both boxes because these are the areas where you win or lose.
I don't disagree with these main points, but I think that in order to achieve this the response has to be radically different than what we'd traditionally expect.

Our defensive approach under Evatt is keeping the ball. That European concept of "if we have it, they can't hurt us" is the fundamental currency of his side. As he keeps saying, it's the transitions - and more pointedly, when they occur - that are killing us. He will live and die in this job by whether he he is right on that call.

There is no way to do the traditional "keep a clean sheet" job and still play Evatt's football. We can't respond to conceding goals like Sam would have, or even like Owen should have.

The thing with "work the margins" is that that's exactly what this style of football is supposed to be. All the celebrated modern coaches are playing statistical football, they are just using different (and better researched) metrics than was the case 10-15 years ago.

Regardless of whether it's Conte, Klopp, Guardiola or anyone, these days the primary defensive focus is on breaking up or preventing opposition transitions (thanks, Jose, for that one). It's why most clubs now take throw-ins back and not forwards, for example. It's also why Barca's "6 second rule" has become almost universally applied at top clubs - 6 seconds is about how long it takes to reorganise a well-drilled side from attacking to defensive shape, so you need to contain transition play for that long (we are not doing that, nor are we shifting back fast enough).

Set pieces, 100%. Ours are truly awful too often. Delivery has improved marginally at times, but the routines are nothingness on a plate.
We can go more compact and work hard to close space down out wide - because we did it for the majority of the second half of last season. See Salford away, FGR away, and a glut of games we spent the last half hour closing out to nil without looking much like scoring many.

And in many of those periods we didn't have that much of the ball. The idea that its impossible for us to do so or Evatt just won't to me is ignoring a whole load of games last season.

The problem I think we have is too many players aren't good enough off the ball and that leaves us often exposed especially when we press. The press has become notably worse to almost non existent as the season has gone on. I think our lack of physicality in central areas is also a major issue at times.

The idea that we have to just surrender possession to keep clean sheets is wrong. But there are things we need to do in attacking areas that risk losing the ball but we need to do them to score. And to enable that we need a firmer more compact base behind. Its all very well highlighting the difference in how teams approach games nowadays and we all know this. But you're citing the top teams who all, generally, more often than not can revert to a basic compact defensive shape when the need arises. And all have the ability to play a high pressing game, the physicality and recovery to match their peers and of course the quality going forwards to ensure that their game is imposed on the opposition. The problem we have is that if we leave gaps we're vulnerable in the extreme even if teams don't manage to exert extended pressure on us. We concede goals from nothing. And then we're unable to score goals as we take too many touches in key areas.

You have to take stock of what you've got and we're not the equivalent of Liverpool or Man City or even Man Utd in our current division. We're more like Crystal Palace or Southampton. So we've got to adjust somewhat to that reality in the short term. It doesn't mean a massive change of style but it means finding ways to tighten up and feel less likely to concede. If we cannot do that then it definitely spells massive trouble this season. If we manage to do that then the other side of the game is about taking risks at the right time and making the chances count.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:06 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:41 pm
We can go more compact and work hard to close space down out wide - because we did it for the majority of the second half of last season. See Salford away, FGR away, and a glut of games we spent the last half hour closing out to nil without looking much like scoring many.

And in many of those periods we didn't have that much of the ball. The idea that its impossible for us to do so or Evatt just won't to me is ignoring a whole load of games last season.

The problem I think we have is too many players aren't good enough off the ball and that leaves us often exposed especially when we press. The press has become notably worse to almost non existent as the season has gone on. I think our lack of physicality in central areas is also a major issue at times.

The idea that we have to just surrender possession to keep clean sheets is wrong. But there are things we need to do in attacking areas that risk losing the ball but we need to do them to score. And to enable that we need a firmer more compact base behind. Its all very well highlighting the difference in how teams approach games nowadays and we all know this. But you're citing the top teams who all, generally, more often than not can revert to a basic compact defensive shape when the need arises. And all have the ability to play a high pressing game, the physicality and recovery to match their peers and of course the quality going forwards to ensure that their game is imposed on the opposition. The problem we have is that if we leave gaps we're vulnerable in the extreme even if teams don't manage to exert extended pressure on us. We concede goals from nothing. And then we're unable to score goals as we take too many touches in key areas.

You have to take stock of what you've got and we're not the equivalent of Liverpool or Man City or even Man Utd in our current division. We're more like Crystal Palace or Southampton. So we've got to adjust somewhat to that reality in the short term. It doesn't mean a massive change of style but it means finding ways to tighten up and feel less likely to concede. If we cannot do that then it definitely spells massive trouble this season. If we manage to do that then the other side of the game is about taking risks at the right time and making the chances count.
I don't think I disagree with much here.

I think some of our players are better than you think they are and less crap then I sometimes tell them they are when I'm watching iFollow....the useless bastards (I'm more supportive in person).

I'd say we are looking to be more like Leicester than Palace or Southampton, but it's a quibble. The thing with all those clubs is that they tend to sign players and then slowly work them in to established Premier League sides. We have tried that this season, but injuries have hampered some key signings (our main two attacking additions) and our momentum wasn't what we'd hoped.

Evatt expected similar outputs from last season's players and to be fair to him in some cases we've seen them do even better - notably Dapo and Lee. He also expected to be able to add pace and power up front from Baka and Amaechi, but those are the lads that we've had trouble getting fit. So I can understand him feeling a bit hard done by when he was clearly right about quite a lot. Even Dixon has been pretty good. The trouble is Doyle hasn't been able to capitalise on as many defensive mistakes to grab goals, Williams has struggled against more pace running around him and we're not as organised at the back.

The thing with last season was we won a lot of our promotion games by very fine margins and we needed that pace and power up top so badly. We also don't have Baps and Gilks giving us that experience. We all knew what had to happen for us to do well, some of it is down to bad luck and some is just not being able to fix everything in one window.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by Prufrock » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:39 pm

I think the better comparison is Brighton. You commit to the way of playing and try to recruit to improve all within that.

It's a gamble, and a fairly modern idea, but he's not a manager IMO you're going to see change the underlying "principles" for a couple of games just to get points on the board. He'll view at as being the price you pay to get the "content" on and the players knowing exactly what you want.
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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:43 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:39 pm
I think the better comparison is Brighton. You commit to the way of playing and try to recruit to improve all within that.
In terms of approach on the pitch, absolutely. I can certainly get behind that model. I could also get behind Brentford's model, but we are lightyears behind them in analytics.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:52 pm

We're also lightyears behind Brighton in terms of money being pumped into the club – Tony Bloom has spent £350m on them.

I know that's not what Pru was saying, BTW, but while we're here, it seems to me Brentford or Burnley are the models to adopt.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:56 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:39 pm
I think the better comparison is Brighton. You commit to the way of playing and try to recruit to improve all within that.

It's a gamble, and a fairly modern idea, but he's not a manager IMO you're going to see change the underlying "principles" for a couple of games just to get points on the board. He'll view at as being the price you pay to get the "content" on and the players knowing exactly what you want.
Every manager has to and Evatt already has. The idea that he’s wedded to style over result to me is just a front. He’s already lambasted the players for not going long sometimes.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by Prufrock » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:13 pm

It's not style over results though. It's style as a way to get results. A clear "identity" over jack off all trades chop and change as you go.

It's not an absolute of course, he rightly questioned their nous for trying to do it in the Plymouth swimming pool, but it's much more up that end of the scale.
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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:21 pm

Rochdale result was a good place from which to build.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:26 pm

All the philosophy in the world isn't saving you, if every time you lose the ball they score. That philosophy is straight from W4E.

You can have 98% possession, neatly stroking it around in under 6 seconds, pivoting, pirouetting and triple salkoing. But if they get 2 goals, with their 2%, it matters not one jot.

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Re: Bravery on the ball and "The Bolton Way"

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:50 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:26 pm
All the philosophy in the world isn't saving you, if every time you lose the ball they score. That philosophy is straight from W4E.

You can have 98% possession, neatly stroking it around in under 6 seconds, pivoting, pirouetting and triple salkoing. But if they get 2 goals, with their 2%, it matters not one jot.
Any chance you could upload that content into them please?

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