The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

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The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:43 am

So I've been thinking about this one for a while and the goals scored by Stockport gave me a chance to explain why are so vulnerable defensively and how Evatt could fix some of the issues we have by just copying what Tuchel did to fix Lampard's Chelsea.

Firstly it's import to understand that our main vulnerabilities that people talk about (down the flanks and in front of the back four) are actually the same issue, we get caught in transition - shifting from our attacking to our defensive shape.

Evatt's system calls for very aggressive positioning of players when in possession. Because the centre backs are expected to dictate play, the midfielders are freed up to act further up the pitch. It's then up to the centre back to make the simple pass to a deeper player, carry the ball forward, pick out a runner etc. In the first image you can see a fairly typical ball from Santos into the channel to try and find Izzy or Kachunga.
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Santos' range of passing makes this a reliable threat, but if the pass is read or poorly executed we have taken 5 of our own players out of the game. Here, the left centre half picks up a losoe ball and carries it forward. Williams drops into a back four and our midfield 8 has to choose how to react to the transition.
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As the opposition transition from defence into attack it is our recovery sprints that dictate how well we react to the threat. If we don't react quickly enough, or if we simply don't make the sprints, we end up in this sort of position. Here out 8 is forced to choose between pressuring the ball and dropping off to track their 10, as our 11 hasn't made the recovery sprint to take up marking the 10 and allow 8 to press the ball. Our 7 and 3 have also failed to sprint, probably due to already having made attacking runs, putting them well behind play.
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It looks like I can only have three images per post, so I'll have to do this as a series of replies.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:47 am

Ignore this one. It said my first post failed so there was a duplicate.
Last edited by GhostoftheBok on Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:50 am

In the next image our 8 has made his choice and gone to close down, but is bypassed by a simple ball inside. Our 11 and 10 have failed to recover and are out of the game.

The red 10 may now choose one of two available overloads. He can go wide to a 2 on 1 against a makeshift fullback, or he can call for the winger to run inside and create a central 3 on 2. Either way goal scoring opportunity is highly likely.
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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:05 am

We saw an example of the lack of recovery sprints against Stockport.

Here Kachunga is too slow to close the Stockport player down and he is able to pick a pass at will.
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As the ball goes over the midfield we have Izzy 10 yards ahead of the Stockport runners and two midfielders in line with their number 9.
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Unfortunately, their runners begin to attack as soon as the ball is released. Lee and Izzy don't begin to sprint until Quigley turns back inside.
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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:09 am

Having failed to recover position, Lee has to either let their guy release the ball or foul him. With two players in a position to make a challenge Lee decides not to take the yellow card in a central area at a good distance to goal.
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As this unfolds there are a number of errors made, but it was the lack of sprints that killed us.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:29 am

Under Lampard, Chelsea often found themselves caught out in the transition and Tuchel's solution was fairly simple. A change to a back 3 was important for their overall play, but the most important change was in having an additional player take up a central position for sprint recovery. In a Tuchel side, the ball going wide is actively encouraged and all midfield sprint recoveries are made centrally - the logic being that almost all goals are scored form central areas and so if you cover those you will concede fewer.

In our Tuchel example, when Santo's ball forward is lost we don't fall into a back four or see our mids attempt sprints in the channels. Instead we look to fill the central areas as quickly as possible. Our 5, 8 and 10 all make their recovery motions with a mind to denying central forward movement of the ball.
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The opposition is encouraged to look for overloads on the near flank, slowing down their counter attack and buying time for the team to recover into their defensive shape.
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This is a simple adjustment, but one that saw Tuchel tighten up Chelsea considerably. By intentionally creating space on the flanks during transitions, Chelsea slow down counter attacks and allow their defenders to pack the centre of the pitch and deny shooting opportunities. In an Evatt system, this is fairly easy to achieve, assuming the fitness of the players is good enough. Chelsea have the advantage of having some incredible athletes in their side.

Ultimately we don't make enough of our recoveries and we give up too much space in central areas. Tuchel solved a similar issue at Chelsea and if Evatt doesn't want to fundamentally change his style of play it's probably worth his time to steal some ideas from the best. Deny space in the middle, force play out wide and if the opposition do go inside make sure they at least have to make an exceptional pass to do so.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:42 am

Its good analysis but watch the second Stockport goal. Its not really about transition that. Its a long ball upfield and Baptiste comes across to hold the player up. You can rightly accuse Lee of not getting behind the ball quickly enough - but I'd start to ask the question as to whether we have a midfield able to cover the ground asked. Its all very well in August and September after a promotion with early season enthusiasm but right now to me it looks leggy and disjointed.

Even then we've got enough back to cover it, only 3 players are around the ball and not ONE, not ONE impacts on the pass. Santos most at fault there with some awfully lazy (and sadly not untypical from him) defending. Then of course the run in the box is missed by Baptiste - who along with DJ plays him onside. Its a mess. I don't buy that the back four is drilled. There are individual mistakes there but more than that there isn't a line and Santos all to often steps out to half press a ball and behind him its shambolic.

I totally agree that we need to stuff the centre of the pitch more BUT it generally means you half to at times lose considerable possession and sit deeper because either you leave 2 on 1's out wide or the whole team ends up deeper with the wide players supporting your full backs. It also means your centre halves (who are problematic) have more to deal with.

I do think the system needs a tweak because I don't believe we have the athletes in midfield now Sarce has gone to manage this system effectively. Sheehan cannot. Lee can but is 34 soon. MJ will be dead by December if it carries on like this.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:44 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:42 am
Its good analysis but watch the second Stockport goal. Its not really about transition that. Its a long ball upfield and Baptiste comes across to hold the player up.
Yeah, it was purely an example of failed recovery.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:51 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:44 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:42 am
Its good analysis but watch the second Stockport goal. Its not really about transition that. Its a long ball upfield and Baptiste comes across to hold the player up.
Yeah, it was purely an example of failed recovery.
Yeah it is but I'd wager the way we play that's going to happen several times in a game regardless of best intentions. Especially in a side that goes more direct (and we wonder why we did well against Rochdale who play like us and aren't that physical in the press....). Because your number 8's for want of a better word are going to be caught up field without being able to recover. And short of signing Kante I doubt we can expect the ones we have available to consistently do the work that Sarce was capable of. So we're looking at needing to adjust how we play.

I do think the basic is we need to as you say be more compact, tighter and probably that means sitting a little deeper overall and accepting we might have less of the ball. Dapo in a central area would offer us a better option on transition from there though. Our weakness in that system is still out wide but maybe Amaechi can help there?

And my point re Stockport's second is you can have whatever system you like but if three players round the ball all do absolutely nowt and your massive 6ft plus centre half is so half hearted on the edge of his own box then well, prepare to concede regardless. I think what we're seeing is a mix of tactical shortcomings, physical shortcomings and a general mentality that probably stems from the manager and his coaching staff telling these players they are way better than they are. Even some of our early wins were essentially games we could have lost by multiple goals on another day. If you play on the edge like that you can't afford to stop at all. And I think its clear we haven't be able to not stop.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:58 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:42 am
I do think the system needs a tweak because I don't believe we have the athletes in midfield now Sarce has gone to manage this system effectively. Sheehan cannot. Lee can but is 34 soon. MJ will be dead by December if it carries on like this.
We know Evatt won't fundamentally change styles, but it's also supremely hard to sign footballing athletes below the Prem and top half Champ. It's easier to do when you have Kante dropping in to help Jorginho.

We have tweaked it a bit in the last two games and it did make us more solid. Against both Dale and Stockport we conceded chances almost exclusively to individual errors and failed sprints, rather than just offering miles of space in the middle as we did first hour against Gillingham and the prior two games.

If we are shifting that way fully it'll take time to coach it and ultimately we will need more players. We currently have four mids. I'm not sure how we ask them to make the number of sprints needed, with so little rotation, over the Christmas period.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:04 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:58 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:42 am
I do think the system needs a tweak because I don't believe we have the athletes in midfield now Sarce has gone to manage this system effectively. Sheehan cannot. Lee can but is 34 soon. MJ will be dead by December if it carries on like this.
We know Evatt won't fundamentally change styles, but it's also supremely hard to sign footballing athletes below the Prem and top half Champ. It's easier to do when you have Kante dropping in to help Jorginho.

We have tweaked it a bit in the last two games and it did make us more solid. Against both Dale and Stockport we conceded chances almost exclusively to individual errors and failed sprints, rather than just offering miles of space in the middle as we did first hour against Gillingham and the prior two games.

If we are shifting that way fully it'll take time to coach it and ultimately we will need more players. We currently have four mids. I'm not sure how we ask them to make the number of sprints needed, with so little rotation, over the Christmas period.
I mean you have to be more compact and reduce the workload on the midfield. That's been obvious for weeks.

Midfield was light with Sarce in there so its odd for Evatt to pretend we had loads of numbers there. Either he doesn't get it or is under a lot of pressure and like his post match SW comments reflect a man on the edge.

I don't know but we need to be much more intelligent in how we set up. It might even mean going more direct at times and getting Dapo in on second balls, but something has to change - everyone can see it - at least until January when we can reassess based on recruitmnt.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:18 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:04 pm
I don't know but we need to be much more intelligent in how we set up. It might even mean going more direct at times and getting Dapo in on second balls
I'd say that's the opposite of what we need, as that actively increases the number of transitions.

That was the point Evatt made in one of his post match chats. We went direct due to panicking and the number of transitions meant we were absolutely shattered in no time.

One of the reasons Evatt's teams have got to have really strong possession stats is to keep recovery sprints to an absolute minimum - because the intensity needed to attack in his system means you can't do both.

I'd go so far as to say that the reason the lads look slow in build up is because they are scared of the recovery sprints in transition. I think IE specifically said Delf was knackered because he'd had to make so many recovery sprints and he then had to sprint for attacks.

Like I say, Evatt's not changing his style, so we need Evattball-friendly solutions.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Prufrock » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:22 pm

Even when things were going well at the start of the season the consensus was the balance in midfield wasn't quite right. And in its simplest form that comes down to MJ getting exposed and having too much to do. I think the solution given we just are not going to start going long (which fixes half the problem but exacerbates the other) or keeping wholesale bodies back is to put another body in there. It's DSB's box. That's Lee for me. You'll lose a bit going forward, but part of that would be some compensation on the "bodies in the box problem in that your 10 is free to start higher and commit to getting in there. I think Sheehan can do it, and I think Dapo can do it.

The main difference (other then just across the board quality) between us and say Liverpool-City is that their "MJ" whether it's Rodri/Fabinho/whoever is an incredibly athlete. At our level all players have trade-offs and MJ's is that athleticism.
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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:35 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:18 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:04 pm
I don't know but we need to be much more intelligent in how we set up. It might even mean going more direct at times and getting Dapo in on second balls
I'd say that's the opposite of what we need, as that actively increases the number of transitions.

That was the point Evatt made in one of his post match chats. We went direct due to panicking and the number of transitions meant we were absolutely shattered in no time.

One of the reasons Evatt's teams have got to have really strong possession stats is to keep recovery sprints to an absolute minimum - because the intensity needed to attack in his system means you can't do both.

I'd go so far as to say that the reason the lads look slow in build up is because they are scared of the recovery sprints in transition. I think IE specifically said Delf was knackered because he'd had to make so many recovery sprints and he then had to sprint for attacks.

Like I say, Evatt's not changing his style, so we need Evattball-friendly solutions.
It depends how you setup. If you're deeper and compact against a pressing team you will have to go more direct unless we're really good enough to play through them Man City style consistently (we're not). The problem is we've not got good enough players for just one style so we need to play different ways against different opposition. Sometimes that might necessitate going more direct in games or periods of games. But we need that adaptability as how we play is being read and picked off by teams. We're not a surprise anymore. Chelsea got Lukaku for the very reason that last season they were limited to the counter. They needed a way out recognising they aren't Man City and their counter isn't as good as Liverpools. Adaptability is what Chelsea have and what we will need now.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:48 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:22 pm
Even when things were going well at the start of the season the consensus was the balance in midfield wasn't quite right. And in its simplest form that comes down to MJ getting exposed and having too much to do. I think the solution given we just are not going to start going long (which fixes half the problem but exacerbates the other) or keeping wholesale bodies back is to put another body in there. It's DSB's box. That's Lee for me. You'll lose a bit going forward, but part of that would be some compensation on the "bodies in the box problem in that your 10 is free to start higher and commit to getting in there. I think Sheehan can do it, and I think Dapo can do it.

The main difference (other then just across the board quality) between us and say Liverpool-City is that their "MJ" whether it's Rodri/Fabinho/whoever is an incredibly athlete. At our level all players have trade-offs and MJ's is that athleticism.
The big issue for Evatt is that he got this style working in a 3-at-the-back with a really enthusiastic beast of a centre forward. There was an extra body at the back and when the ball went forward it stuck.

He has been figuring out how to get this Bolton squad to make it work and it is getting a bit better each window, but as some parts get better others get worse. Injuries haven't helped (but then, do they ever?) and we are having to transition from important players to the new crop - none of whom I really have an issue with.

We are missing key parts of the Evattball machine, but it's his job to find solutions.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:05 pm

Just caught up with this - fascinating stuff, thanks Ghost. Much to ponder. But again (and as you agreed on the match thread) a lot of it is sorted with that second DM to make the "box" (not my term, I'm sure Evatt used it last season). And wanting it. Sorry, but for the second goal Sexy Kieran just let Madden go.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by brommers95 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:12 pm

Good post Ghost, defensive transitions are definitely our achilles heel at the minute.

As others have pointed out the main issue seemingly that we’re not athletic enough in midfield. Lee and Sheehan are technicians with great ball playing ability but are never going to be physical enough to stop opposition forward surges. While I love MJ and he’s got enough strength and puts himself about he’s one of the slowest players on the pitch (that’s not a criticism btw).

I’ve been wondering whether it should be a priority in January to sign a L1 Makelele - an athletic defensive mid who’s brilliant at covering the space in front of the back four and regularly wins the ball back. They don’t need to be a technician if their primary remit is to win possession back and then give to a more forward thinking teammate.

As Insane as noted earlier, MJ desperately needs some help.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:22 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:05 pm
Just caught up with this - fascinating stuff, thanks Ghost. Much to ponder. But again (and as you agreed on the match thread) a lot of it is sorted with that second DM to make the "box" (not my term, I'm sure Evatt used it last season). And wanting it. Sorry, but for the second goal Sexy Kieran just let Madden go.
Like I said above, Evatt's system started being really successful with a 3-at-the-back system and rotating midfielders. He kept the rotation in midfield and dropped one centre back, which caused us to be more open that yo' momma's legs, as it were. We compromised by having Williams sit more, but as soon as he steps up were are light - as we saw for that Dale goal. Madden moves into William's vacated position and Lee fails to sprint to cover.

The issue with having two players sit is it robs us of the additional attacker and Evatt would have to change all his attacking patterns. That's genuinely a huge amount of work, as it is detailed coaching. So you need that secondary DM to be able to get up the pitch - as happened against Rochdale with Thommo.

I am absolutely certain there's more than one way to skin this cat. For me, the best solution is Tariq Uwakwe - who played exactly that 6/8 role in the Chelsea youth side that mirrored Tuchel's tactics and who just happens to be looking for a move at this level; but I can't remember the last time I got exactly the player I wanted...so not him.

We need a solution to limp through until January and then a proper one thereafter. That means getting what we missed in the summer and replacing what we lost (sent) to Stockport. However the gaffer solves it, everyone is clear it needs doing.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:34 pm

brommers95 wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:12 pm
I’ve been wondering whether it should be a priority in January to sign a L1 Makelele - an athletic defensive mid who’s brilliant at covering the space in front of the back four and regularly wins the ball back. They don’t need to be a technician if their primary remit is to win possession back and then give to a more forward thinking teammate.

As Insane as noted earlier, MJ desperately needs some help.
I think I did a post when we signed Sheehan about that lack of athleticism being what would trip him up here if we didn't sort out someone to go with him. For me he's a good defender, but he can't recover. That means if he reads the danger and is ahead of play (usually he is) we are golden, but on transition or if he cocks up he's toast.

We could sign a Muamba type (no idea who) who could just carry water, but I don't see it. Sarce wasn't getting a new deal precisely because too many patterns broke down when he got the ball. I struggle to see how we get another lad who gives us loads in one area but can't actually play the system - we'd have given Sarce the deal he wanted if that was the plan.

Hartigan at Wimbledon has been linked to us. There are a few ways to look at it - do you bring in a more defensive player who can pass and bank on coaching better attacking play into him over time (Declan Rice style), or do you go for an 8/10 with some legs and coach him to defend?

That's without considering that we need spark in the middle to make us less predictable and what that player would need to look like in order to fit into the system.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Prufrock » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:37 pm

Two more thoughts.

On their second goal, and not to negate the criticisms of others which are fair, but MJ takes a big part of the blame too. They didn't bypass him, he just wasn't there, he'd gone on a mad one chasing the ball and ended up sliding in to get nowhere near a ball forward from left back. When you've only got one in there, they defo can't go wandering.

On the patterns of play, we played with two sitters for all of the run last year. Lee, MJ, Dapo, Doyle and Isgrove (if playing higher) will all be familiar with it. It's mainly a slight change of emphasis for Lee. It's not nothing, but it's worth it for me, especially given that weakness looked the with the balance even in the good run. I'm not sure we're signing players in Jan or even the summer who can definitively make up for MJs lack of athleticism, and we're not going to drop him, so we might as well make the change now and be better in the long run.
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