The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:41 pm

MJ covers a lot of ground so not sure he's 'not atheltic enough' at all. Does anyone have the stats for our midfield players and ground covered?

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:52 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:37 pm
Two more thoughts.

On their second goal, and not to negate the criticisms of others which are fair, but MJ takes a big part of the blame too. They didn't bypass him, he just wasn't there, he'd gone on a mad one chasing the ball and ended up sliding in to get nowhere near a ball forward from left back. When you've only got one in there, they defo can't go wandering.

On the patterns of play, we played with two sitters for all of the run last year. Lee, MJ, Dapo, Doyle and Isgrove (if playing higher) will all be familiar with it. It's mainly a slight change of emphasis for Lee. It's not nothing, but it's worth it for me, especially given that weakness looked the with the balance even in the good run. I'm not sure we're signing players in Jan or even the summer who can definitively make up for MJs lack of athleticism, and we're not going to drop him, so we might as well make the change now and be better in the long run.
All reasonable. The thing with the "two sitters" at the end of last year is that we saw a lot of forward runs from the not-Williams one, they then failed to recover. I remember talking with you and DSB about this and saying it was going to be a massive issue this season. Williams was consistently left isolated even then, but we were playing worse sides.

This is an issue that has existed since we went to 4-at-the-back and nothing Evatt has done has definitively solved it - precisely because we didn't change our patterns much, it's just one mid started deeper when we made our final approach. When that transition happened in their third we were just as buggered - but it did save us a bit in early turnovers.

If Williams is a permanent fixture in this side then he does need help, but Evatt will not fundamentally change things. I might be thick and missing something (a very real possibility) but you either go to a three, you get proper athletes somehow, you change your style of play dramatically or you just accept it as the price of pretty football. We can tweak improvements (looks like we may be trying to do that now), but it looks like remaining a key weakness.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:00 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:41 pm
MJ covers a lot of ground so not sure he's 'not atheltic enough' at all. Does anyone have the stats for our midfield players and ground covered?
It's not ground covered, it's how quickly he covers it. His stamina is fine, it's his pace that is lacking. Once he takes up a position that's him for a while. He's fairly slow over 20 yards, but he's glacial over 10.

I've said before, he's Campo. Lacks the pace for anywhere other than a holding role, but is fabulous at that specific job. It's why we were able to get him, he's a specialist nobody else valued. Same reason we have John...he can't defend in the air or on the back foot, but he rarely needs to for us. Santos has loads of flaws as a CB, but he's immensely powerful and superb on the ball.

We are a fabulous, footballing, freakshow of highly specialised parts. I rather like it.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by boltonboris » Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:33 pm

It's very well laid out Ghost, but for me, the second goal is simply concentration from the centre back - Yes we were wide open in the middle of the pitch, but Baptiste has a striker 1 ft away from him, but is still ball watching. He lets the striker goal side instead of checking/blocking him and for some reason Declan John looks like he's trying to get in the queue for a feckin' half time hotdog in the north stand

The goals were down to individual errors
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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:43 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:33 pm
It's very well laid out Ghost, but for me, the second goal is simply concentration from the centre back - Yes we were wide open in the middle of the pitch, but Baptiste has a striker 1 ft away from him, but is still ball watching. He lets the striker goal side instead of checking/blocking him and for some reason Declan John looks like he's trying to get in the queue for a feckin' half time hotdog in the north stand

The goals were down to individual errors
You can blame Lee and Santos too. And Isgrove. It’s individual errors but collectively we keep making them. To be the back four don’t look well organised. Wigans second goal is a similar collective set of errors or just all round poor defending.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:41 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:43 pm

The goals were down to individual errors
You can blame Lee and Santos too. And Isgrove. It’s individual errors but collectively we keep making them. To be the back four don’t look well organised. Wigans second goal is a similar collective set of errors or just all round poor defending.
[/quote]

Going to have to dodge a few tomatoes here, but...If we didn't make errors and, in some cases get opened up by better players,(both Stockport's goal were well worked) we'd be beating United and Chelsea etc every week. We're League two, not the Premier, so why talk perfection? Isgrove isn't a full back,( why on earth does Evatt persist in playing him there?) Baptiste isn't top of his class and no Usain Bolt, and we're halfway up the table and we have no divine right to win every game. Oh, and we usually have a couple of our finest in physio. Yes, we make some half-assed errors, a la Baptiste's sloppy,careless passing, and we need a plan B, C,D or whatever the occasion demands , but if our errors are so transparent, then it's up to El Supremo to see and rectify them. Sometimes it's the system at fault rather than just individual errors. I'm equally sure that Evatt can't fail to see we can't walk the ball into the opponent's net every game. There has to be life after Bapo...

To the stocks with him... :hang:
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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:00 pm

I know a tomato 🍅 opportunity when I see one. I don't think anyone expects this team could sit near the top of the premiership. But equally, we want to be able to compete in the division we play in. We don't have Salah capitalising on mistakes, we have League 1 players and in the case of yesterday we had a non-league team. Just as an aside, United sit in the League pyramid about the same distance in front of us as Stockport sit behind us.

On any given day we can have a bad one. If this was a one off, I think most people would recognise that. It isn't, and it keeps happening so far this season. Understanding how the perfect system works doesn't help us if the parts can't deliver it. Sometimes you have to make temporary changes to keep it afloat.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Prufrock » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:43 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:33 pm
It's very well laid out Ghost, but for me, the second goal is simply concentration from the centre back - Yes we were wide open in the middle of the pitch, but Baptiste has a striker 1 ft away from him, but is still ball watching. He lets the striker goal side instead of checking/blocking him and for some reason Declan John looks like he's trying to get in the queue for a feckin' half time hotdog in the north stand

The goals were down to individual errors
You can blame Lee and Santos too. And Isgrove. It’s individual errors but collectively we keep making them. To be the back four don’t look well organised. Wigans second goal is a similar collective set of errors or just all round poor defending.
And MJ.
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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:47 pm

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:51 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:33 pm
The goals were down to individual errors
Not making your recoveries is an individual error too - but it can be systemic. Baps makes two errors. He lets Quigley turn inside him (when he should be slowing down play by forcing him wide) and he then fails to switch on to the run directly in front of him. The thing is, if the midfielders recover their positions his first error is covered for. The question about whether you can play Evattball with lower league players isn't really about "can they pass it 10 yards?" it's mostly about whether it's a system that can cover for the increased number of errors at this level vs elite football.

As soon as we get turned around with Williams up the pitch our lads need to know that that triggers a recovery sprint, just as much opposition possession in certain positions triggers the press. The fact that Lee had to see Quigley turn inside to start sprinting says he either didn't get coached to make that sprint or had a lapse. Given that other players also didn't make their sprints I think it's the former.

There's too sides to this, one is leadership. Not necessarily Roy Keane or Vieira style "death or victory" stuff, but more like a Jorginho getting other players to make their runs. Sheehan did that against Rochdale, so fair play to him there. The other side is coaching/system, where there has got be an awareness that we need that additional body in there. That demand for a run should have come from a couple of players; especially Rico, who was asking where his protection was after they scored - but it's too late to ask then. He's the centre half and captain, he should be screaming at Lee and Williams as soon as that goes forward.

If Jones is in there he sprints and drags Lee with him. If that's Sheehan and not Lee he sprints and takes Izzy with him. So yeah it's individual errors and personnel, but it should be second nature - even with two forward-thinkers in defensive mode. A hoof forward shouldn't require decent reading of danger to deal with, the triggers should be there.

I said after the match that in the last two games things have been better and we have mostly had issues with errors, but our positions and triggers are still off and (as I said in the analysis) its not a huge change to tighten that particular area up. When Tuchel was offered the Chelsea job he apparently said they should consider giving Lampard more time to make small adjustments. He came in, made adjustments and Lampard's "error prone" defenders suddenly stopped making errors...only they still made them, they were just covered for. I think we are small adjustments (and a bit of recruitment) away from decent defending for this level, rather than having to burn it all down and start again.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:34 pm

You would hope small adjustments were relatively easier to execute. Problem is we're seemingly not making them. We're 22 matches into the season and they've been occurring since game 1. That concerns me, not to the burn it all down point or change the manager point. But like Sammy Lee, there's only so long you can see the positives whilst not addressing the negatives.

Either Evatt as a professional, has spotted your narrative (assuming it's that clear to him) and is either trying to address it, in which case we're not yet seeing it or he's missed it, in which case we're not going to see it. Or the players aren't capable of achieving it.

Whilst many might see us potentially yo yoing next division up, I doubt they'd be as forgiving between L1 and L2. Ultimately all the drawings on boards don't help if they don't translate into points from games.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:49 pm

I think I agree that it's no more complex than the players not being good enough to do what's being asked of them.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:50 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:43 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:33 pm
It's very well laid out Ghost, but for me, the second goal is simply concentration from the centre back - Yes we were wide open in the middle of the pitch, but Baptiste has a striker 1 ft away from him, but is still ball watching. He lets the striker goal side instead of checking/blocking him and for some reason Declan John looks like he's trying to get in the queue for a feckin' half time hotdog in the north stand

The goals were down to individual errors
You can blame Lee and Santos too. And Isgrove. It’s individual errors but collectively we keep making them. To be the back four don’t look well organised. Wigans second goal is a similar collective set of errors or just all round poor defending.
And MJ.
Well maybe. But there were enough players back to cover for MJ being caught upfield. And they didn’t do their jobs. MJ probably should be told not to stray from the back four but again that’s down to IE.

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Re: The case for the defence - how Tuchel would fix Evattball

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:46 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:49 pm
I think I agree that it's no more complex than the players not being good enough to do what's being asked of them.
The fact that the summer signings haven't had an impact yet is a real issue. The only thing lifting us is the improvement in Dapo's end product and that's just balancing out a drop from Doyle.

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