Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:43 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:30 pm
I'm not sure anyone has said play more defensive football. Vast majority of posts I've seen have said things like "sort the defence/defending out". They're not the same thing.

I've not noticed Tuchel and Guardiola teams leaking 2 per game, as a generalisation. If you're saying it's binary and I can have one or other, I'll take conceded none and might nick one, over shit I've got to score 2 for a point and 3 to win.
People have said repeatedly we should go "back to basics" and "play on the counter with bodies behind the ball." At matches there has been talk about setting the team up for a clean sheet and "going more direct", as there always is with certain sections of our support.

I did a thread on how Tuchel's defensive philosophy could be applied to our current issues and as I said, Guardiola did precisely what we did against Crewe when his own side were two up recently.

Today's lack of tempo was not like other games this season. It wasn't fear, or a lack of ideas...it was game management. If people have been asking for Evatt to sort out the defence in an Evatt style system, then they absolutely got what they asked for today....many of them booed it.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:51 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:02 pm

Yes, but the point is that we've been slow to progress upfield when we aren't playing with a defensive mindset.

The domination of possession might in theory reduce the risk of us conceding (although we've conceded an alarming number of goals so far this season) but I can't help but feel it's unduly stifling our attacking play. My own personal theory is that it's because our forward players, bar Dapo, lack the ability to break through the above average teams in this league on a consistent enough basis. That is the primary reason, for me, why we lack tempo.
I wrote a more fulsome reply, but it was mostly waffle you'll have heard from me before.

To sum it up - today we had two fullbacks who are good going forward, some physicality up front and two fully fit and at it wide players. In midfield we had Sheehan running the show in a way that meant I got a text from a Crewe mate of mine that said "Bloody hell, he's a player.....the nice person" after he put the pen in. Finally we got a psychological foothold in the match by grinding them down over the course of the first half, which meant we could come out in the second and play without fear.

So, yeah. Fully fit players, not having kids as wing backs, an organiser in the middle of the park and physicality up front. All together it meant that when we wanted to go up a gear we could and they couldn't live with it. When we wanted to play slowly, they couldn't press us effectively enough, often enough, to frighten us....though I'd not mind Dixon being a little more worried sometimes.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:01 pm

If you watched Evatt first half he was throwing his arms up in the air in exasperation as we played sideways and backwards too often. We came out second half and played with tempo. Crewe were always there for the taking.

I always think football is a balance. The best sides can adapt and find ways to play when situations dictate. And for me what we miss right now is the ability to sit in a little wait for transitions and then strike. We’ve got the players and at 2-0 it was perfect for that yet we went back into our sideways and backwards shell.

What was noticeable start of the second half was we started throwing the ball into the box and guess what, we you do that stuff happens. When we work positions we need to deliver. Especially with Baka up there.

You can’t score going back to the keeper. But you can throwing it in there. Against a better side that balance is different. You need more control. But last night called for a bombardment to sink a poor Crewe team. We got there in the end.

But I think booing is counter productive but football fans want excitement and the first half performance was the opposite of that. The fact we dominated the ball makes it worse for some. Frustrating to watch.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:04 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:51 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:02 pm

Yes, but the point is that we've been slow to progress upfield when we aren't playing with a defensive mindset.

The domination of possession might in theory reduce the risk of us conceding (although we've conceded an alarming number of goals so far this season) but I can't help but feel it's unduly stifling our attacking play. My own personal theory is that it's because our forward players, bar Dapo, lack the ability to break through the above average teams in this league on a consistent enough basis. That is the primary reason, for me, why we lack tempo.
I wrote a more fulsome reply, but it was mostly waffle you'll have heard from me before.

To sum it up - today we had two fullbacks who are good going forward, some physicality up front and two fully fit and at it wide players. In midfield we had Sheehan running the show in a way that meant I got a text from a Crewe mate of mine that said "Bloody hell, he's a player.....the nice person" after he put the pen in. Finally we got a psychological foothold in the match by grinding them down over the course of the first half, which meant we could come out in the second and play without fear.

So, yeah. Fully fit players, not having kids as wing backs, an organiser in the middle of the park and physicality up front. All together it meant that when we wanted to go up a gear we could and they couldn't live with it. When we wanted to play slowly, they couldn't press us effectively enough, often enough, to frighten us....though I'd not mind Dixon being a little more worried sometimes.

Oh mate, I know. But the point I'm making is that when the opposition have been stronger, when we haven't had capable wing-backs, when we haven't had physicality up front, our approach has barely shifted.

Evatt doesn't have to abandon his footballing principles to adapt our strategy against more capable teams.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:24 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:04 pm
Oh mate, I know. But the point I'm making is that when the opposition have been stronger, when we haven't had capable wing-backs, when we haven't had physicality up front, our approach has barely shifted.

Evatt doesn't have to abandon his footballing principles to adapt our strategy against more capable teams.
I think our approach has been massively different, to be honest. Yesterday's low tempo stuff was nothing like previous offerings. Last night we had constant passing options and were hardly ever successfully pressed. In other games players have hidden from the ball (looking at you, Sarce) or lacked the mobility to get out of the cover shadow. Today we actually saw Williams sprint to form a back three so he could be a passing option. The Crewe game looked like a conscious decision to play patiently, but also like the players struggled to pick it up when Evatt demanded it after 15 minutes. At half time he clearly asked Sheehan to set that tempo up the park.

Previously we have gone backwards and sideways, then finally aimlessly hoofed it at a midget and been in transition again. There were what, 4 genuine transitional threats today? Two of which had me properly worried. That's not ideal, but it's way better. When we went long today it was through choice to try and create something, not to get rid of the ball.

Gordon and Sarce don't want the ball in tight areas. Doyle struggles physically to make himself an option. Kachunga has been half fit. Today, everyone wanted the ball. Ping it 60 yards to them or knock it 10 yards when they're marked, whatever..."Give me the ball."

Evatt said a few days ago about bravery with the football and we showed that today.

I'm hoping this is the game where the summer recruits stood up and took us forward. Aimson, Sheehan, Kachunga and Baka all did well. No false dawns, please.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:39 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:43 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:30 pm
I'm not sure anyone has said play more defensive football. Vast majority of posts I've seen have said things like "sort the defence/defending out". They're not the same thing.

I've not noticed Tuchel and Guardiola teams leaking 2 per game, as a generalisation. If you're saying it's binary and I can have one or other, I'll take conceded none and might nick one, over shit I've got to score 2 for a point and 3 to win.
People have said repeatedly we should go "back to basics" and "play on the counter with bodies behind the ball." At matches there has been talk about setting the team up for a clean sheet and "going more direct", as there always is with certain sections of our support.

I did a thread on how Tuchel's defensive philosophy could be applied to our current issues and as I said, Guardiola did precisely what we did against Crewe when his own side were two up recently.

Today's lack of tempo was not like other games this season. It wasn't fear, or a lack of ideas...it was game management. If people have been asking for Evatt to sort out the defence in an Evatt style system, then they absolutely got what they asked for today....many of them booed it.
If you genuinely believe that all they wanted was nil, so they should be happy, I think you're going to be disappointed a lot. :-)

The lack of tempo first half, you criticised yourself, are you now saying that was game management? I didn't hear much booing at full time despite our game management after our two second half goals. The booing occurred at half time, when as you said, we were lacking tempo.

Nor did "they" get the other things you mention. Counter attacking or direct football.

Personally, I think we did alright first half. With little to get very excited about at either end. Certainly nothing to boo. I dont buy "chances" as a primary performance measure, because a great chance smacked into row z is worth jack shit. Chances where we get a decent smack on target or score, I buy. We had 1 on target first half and I'd say that was reasonably tame.

I don't see too many comparisons between us, City and Chelsea. I think that's a bit ahead of ourselves. Course had we won the Prem a few times, Evatt probably doesn't get booed to the bottom team in League 1, for being 0-0 at half time.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:24 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:04 pm
Oh mate, I know. But the point I'm making is that when the opposition have been stronger, when we haven't had capable wing-backs, when we haven't had physicality up front, our approach has barely shifted.

Evatt doesn't have to abandon his footballing principles to adapt our strategy against more capable teams.
I think our approach has been massively different, to be honest. Yesterday's low tempo stuff was nothing like previous offerings. Last night we had constant passing options and were hardly ever successfully pressed. In other games players have hidden from the ball (looking at you, Sarce) or lacked the mobility to get out of the cover shadow. Today we actually saw Williams sprint to form a back three so he could be a passing option. The Crewe game looked like a conscious decision to play patiently, but also like the players struggled to pick it up when Evatt demanded it after 15 minutes. At half time he clearly asked Sheehan to set that tempo up the park.

Previously we have gone backwards and sideways, then finally aimlessly hoofed it at a midget and been in transition again. There were what, 4 genuine transitional threats today? Two of which had me properly worried. That's not ideal, but it's way better. When we went long today it was through choice to try and create something, not to get rid of the ball.

Gordon and Sarce don't want the ball in tight areas. Doyle struggles physically to make himself an option. Kachunga has been half fit. Today, everyone wanted the ball. Ping it 60 yards to them or knock it 10 yards when they're marked, whatever..."Give me the ball."

Evatt said a few days ago about bravery with the football and we showed that today.

I'm hoping this is the game where the summer recruits stood up and took us forward. Aimson, Sheehan, Kachunga and Baka all did well. No false dawns, please.

Yesterday's might've been, although currently I'm more minded to think it was because the poor standard of the opposition allowed us more freedom to play how we wanted to. I have a suspicion that throughout this month, as we hit an, on paper, easier run of fixtures and confidence hopefully grows, our performances might begin to resemble those of "the run" last season - not spectacular, free-flowing football necessarily, but strongly dominant in possession and winning by a goal or two at best (with a major caveat that if Ameachi is as good as his footballing pedigree might suggest, he could be a gamechanger).

The thing is, though, in the posts you've replied to I'm referring to prior to yesterday, when the change of approach was needed.

If it is genuinely the case that Evatt changed his strategy last night and gave his critics what they've been asking for, can I point out that it resulted in our first win in six? :wink:

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:53 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:39 pm
The lack of tempo first half, you criticised yourself, are you now saying that was game management?
I'm saying we were sent out to manage the game initially, with the intention we could then switch it up if we needed to. That's why we played the double pivot. We should have switched the midfield 3 for 10-15 minutes in the first half, but my assumption is Evatt was happy with the number of chances we were creating from a safe position. I think that was an error and could have cost us, Evatt would probably say the result shows he got it right.

Second half we moved Sheehan forward, scored two, then dropped him back again.

You are right there was no booing at the end; but what changed was the score line, not the fundamental performance.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:55 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:41 pm
Yesterday's might've been, although currently I'm more minded to think it was because the poor standard of the opposition allowed us more freedom to play how we wanted to.
100% a factor and I hope you're right about getting some wins on the board and confidence flowing from it.

I think I said in an earlier post that Wigan would have put at least one or two past us today. It's a work in progress, but it was definitely better than the couple of drubbings we took - regardless of the opposition.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:53 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:39 pm
The lack of tempo first half, you criticised yourself, are you now saying that was game management?
I'm saying we were sent out to manage the game initially, with the intention we could then switch it up if we needed to. That's why we played the double pivot. We should have switched the midfield 3 for 10-15 minutes in the first half, but my assumption is Evatt was happy with the number of chances we were creating from a safe position. I think that was an error and could have cost us, Evatt would probably say the result shows he got it right.

Second half we moved Sheehan forward, scored two, then dropped him back again.

You are right there was no booing at the end; but what changed was the score line, not the fundamental performance.
I think my only comment at half time was around establishments we couldn't score in. As someone who's suggested our defenders need to learn to defend, I was happy with that side of things and stick by it 100%, but thought we should've done better with the chances we made, Baka probably being the biggest culprit.

Creating chances isn't the aim - it's part of the detail. Scoring goals and winning games is. We did neither in the first half. I doubt many would have been convinced had the same thing happened second half and even more doubtful that pointing them to 18 missed chances would've helped much.

The scoreline wasn't the only thing that changed. The intensity did too during which time, we scored two. 5 great performance 2-0 losses on the bounce isn't going to appease many and as Bolton fans often have, all the stats in the world isn't going to help if they don't think it's happening. Be their view correct or incorrect.

I could envisage the scenario where Evatt doesn't see a performance the same way as the "ignorant" fan base and mentions it....

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Prufrock » Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:24 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:57 pm
How widespread were the boos?
Loud enough that they came through clear enough in the telly that you'd say they were "booed" off, though obvs a non-boo is going to struggle to drown out a boo.

Crewe were baaad tbf. But on the flip side given our run confidence was clearly shot. One of those that you take the 3 points however they come and build.

The main thing we lack for me in an attacking sense is pace going the other way. Dapo is quick but doesn't really run in behind, none of the others are quick. Teams are cautious against us, but they quite often aren't pinned right in so we dominate the ball on the front foot (rather than by semi ponderously knocking it around the back. That threat would buy an extra ten yards in midfield and the room for Lee, Dapo, Sheehan.

I thought Isgrove has his best game at RB for us, really positive, a real that. But Kieran MoTM for me. What a footballer he is. 8/10 at everything.
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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:24 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:57 pm
How widespread were the boos?
Loud enough that they came through clear enough in the telly that you'd say they were "booed" off, though obvs a non-boo is going to struggle to drown out a boo.

Crewe were baaad tbf. But on the flip side given our run confidence was clearly shot. One of those that you take the 3 points however they come and build.

The main thing we lack for me in an attacking sense is pace going the other way. Dapo is quick but doesn't really run in behind, none of the others are quick. Teams are cautious against us, but they quite often aren't pinned right in so we dominate the ball on the front foot (rather than by semi ponderously knocking it around the back. That threat would buy an extra ten yards in midfield and the room for Lee, Dapo, Sheehan.

I thought Isgrove has his best game at RB for us, really positive, a real that. But Kieran MoTM for me. What a footballer he is. 8/10 at everything.
We do lack pace but do you think at home against a struggling side who sit deeper that would make a difference?

For me the issue is you need to get players in the box and put the ball in early as many times as possible. That gives you the highest chance to break a team like Crewe down.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:35 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm
For me the issue is you need to get players in the box and put the ball in early as many times as possible. That gives you the highest chance to break a team like Crewe down.
Also makes it more likely we get hit on the counter. We didn't need to take that risk on Friday.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:04 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:35 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:37 pm
For me the issue is you need to get players in the box and put the ball in early as many times as possible. That gives you the highest chance to break a team like Crewe down.
Also makes it more likely we get hit on the counter. We didn't need to take that risk on Friday.
Crewe weren’t going to counter anything - they are awful. And we did take that risk and scored two in short time.

Football hasn’t changed. Play the POMO areas more than your opponents and you are more likely to win.

There are games where obviously surendering possession is less advantageous. But against struggling teams at home that period in the second half showed the blueprint get it in the danger areas and you maximise your chance of breaking them down. That’s what we did and we won. Too much overthinking for me. Allardyce our lost successful manager ever knew a thing or two and many still apply no matter how many nonsense modern phrases people throw around.

Bottom line is we went up last season on a run of 1-0 wins that often meant digging in and defending for extended periods. Football hasn’t changed that much. Breaking down a deep lying team involves either individual brilliance or a battering ram approach. Sideways and backwards won’t do.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:36 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:04 am
Football hasn’t changed. Play the POMO
We do.

XG-driven systems are POMO, they're just POMO with proper data analysis. XG is precisely a measure POMO exploitation, if POMO is to have any real value as a term.

"Just stick the ball in the box with quality" sounds good, but it's not actually data-driven and when you test it it yields poor results compared to other systems of play.

You also can't separate POMO (as measured by XG) from XGA, because football isn't a play-by-play game.

Every modern system is designed to produce the best XG to XGA ratio, which is exactly the "play the odds" style of play you seem to be calling for....you're just wrong about what playing the odds looks like.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:40 pm

I should add, the top clubs/coaches have their own analysts and their metrics for XG and XGA analysis will usually vary, often also using different terms. Some coaches hate the whole idea of "XG", but you then talk to them and what they talk about is exactly that - they just don't like the jargon.


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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:33 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:26 pm
https://www.crewealex.net/news/2021/nov ... ree-games/

Anyone have a clue?
He felled Dapo off the ball. Think it was Dapo anyhow.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:48 pm

He studded Kachunga off the ball.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:00 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:48 pm
He studded Kachunga off the ball.
Ahh was Kachunga...

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