Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:53 am

I don't think we were short on chances in the first half. There was that lovely ball in that Baka headed over, the through ball to Baka that he couldn't control, the through ball to Lee where his touch took him too wide, the cross that evaded Baka and Kachunga drew a save, that corner routine that saw Baka have a tame shot, a near post cross to Kachunga that he couldn't stretch enough to put in, the lovely ball from Dixon in to Dapo and that back heel from Izzy to Lee that absolutely should have seen us score.

So that's 7 openings off the top if my head. Dunno if I missed any.

I also don't think it was a great performance, but anyone booing that first half display needed to give their head a wobble. It was obvious after that that all we had to do was step up on them and we'd win it.

I don't think it's a viewpoint issue about game management. We went 6 and two 8s after the half and got the two goals, then went two 6s and 10 again to play for possession. It worked well and we won 2-0.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:54 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:49 am
Our tempo last night was the biggest worry for me. Too often we miss the chance to break quickly because players seem to look sideways or backwards as their first option. It's where Sarc is a big miss for me because his hassling and forward runs seemed to drive the rest of the team on.
Agreed - hopefully it was more nerves and a sub conscience that was about not conceding first. I said before a 0-0 would have been a good step in the right direction. Clean sheet was massive. It was noticeable when Sheehan got in the box with a late run we looked more dangerous - Lee was more conservative last night. We got to half time without conceding and they got told to step it up I think.

We did well to escape without bookings to Dapo and MJ from mr self important I think.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:13 am

I find it really weird that people have literally been calling for Evatt to send the side out to keep a clean sheet and look after the defensive side of things and when he does we get complaints about lack of tempo.

We sat two mids, controlled the ball and picked our openings well. We gave them nothing in that first half and that meant we could go out second half with swagger and confidence.

That was exactly what people have been calling for. Then he does it and gets booed off at the half, having dominated the game and created good chances.

Again, far from perfect - but exactly the approach the people now complaining asked for.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:14 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:53 am
I don't think we were short on chances in the first half. There was that lovely ball in that Baka headed over, the through ball to Baka that he couldn't control, the through ball to Lee where his touch took him too wide, the cross that evaded Baka and Kachunga drew a save, that corner routine that saw Baka have a tame shot, a near post cross to Kachunga that he couldn't stretch enough to put in, the lovely ball from Dixon in to Dapo and that back heel from Izzy to Lee that absolutely should have seen us score.

So that's 7 openings off the top if my head. Dunno if I missed any.

I also don't think it was a great performance, but anyone booing that first half display needed to give their head a wobble. It was obvious after that that all we had to do was step up on them and we'd win it.

I don't think it's a viewpoint issue about game management. We went 6 and two 8s after the half and got the two goals, then went two 6s and 10 again to play for possession. It worked well and we won 2-0.
I prefer watching test cricket to T20. I can admire the skill displayed by Atherton to fend off hour after hour without scoring a lot of runs. Technically he's doing everything correct. But it's not for everyone. :-)

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:16 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:14 am
I prefer watching test cricket to T20. I can admire the skill displayed by Atherton to fend off hour after hour without scoring a lot of runs. Technically he's doing everything correct. But it's not for everyone. :-)
Test cricket all the way. T20 is baseball for people with ADHD.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:34 am

Delighted with the win and the points. Crewe were pretty good defensively and, till the penalty we weren't over dangerous. We needed the boost a goal always gives but, as we've found many times, that works both ways. On the few occasions they got in our box, that old familiar chill blast of fear still blows across the back of my neck. It was particularly icy when they hit the bar because Crew were really pressing and one goal can change the whole mood in seconds. In this league,one goal is never a safety net and, as has been said, "occasionally" as fortune demands, a meaty size tens beats a twinkle-toes display hands down. The cheers would soon become jeers had we not won. I'd have had M.J and Isgrove as joint M.O.T.M. with Santos as not far off.

Must confess I was baffled with some of the ref's decisions but Evatt should lead by example and not make an enemy of officials or tarnish our club image by his antics. Crewe didn't play like a total bargain basement team especially defensively,, but not all our opponents will be doing us any favours and it's the losses, not wins, that define success in any league. "Not how, but how many" has always been the case in sport. All said, injuries in account, a good display, better result and happy fans (mainly) :oyea:
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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:39 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
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DJBlu wrote:
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PM for details.
We owe you a great deal of thanks for all you do on this site, D.J.B. Here's mine.. :pray:
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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:52 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:13 am
I find it really weird that people have literally been calling for Evatt to send the side out to keep a clean sheet and look after the defensive side of things and when he does we get complaints about lack of tempo.

We sat two mids, controlled the ball and picked our openings well. We gave them nothing in that first half and that meant we could go out second half with swagger and confidence.

That was exactly what people have been calling for. Then he does it and gets booed off at the half, having dominated the game and created good chances.

Again, far from perfect - but exactly the approach the people now complaining asked for.
You said we lacked tempo, yourself. Is it only a complaint when others say the same thing? :-)

People didn't ask for lack of tempo, lack of clear cut chances. They asked for us to stop leaking silly goals, which we did, although second half, we tried harder to give them a go. I'm sure they're not binary.

Evatt, I think said far from perfect or suchlike in his presser and I think that's where people are, at the same time as being generally happy with the three points.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:02 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:13 am
I find it really weird that people have literally been calling for Evatt to send the side out to keep a clean sheet and look after the defensive side of things and when he does we get complaints about lack of tempo.

We sat two mids, controlled the ball and picked our openings well. We gave them nothing in that first half and that meant we could go out second half with swagger and confidence.

That was exactly what people have been calling for. Then he does it and gets booed off at the half, having dominated the game and created good chances.

Again, far from perfect - but exactly the approach the people now complaining asked for.
A few things on this.

Some folk don't actually know what they want. Some want difference, so when that happens they want difference again. Some want defensive football but, if they get it, will moan about passiveness. Some just want to moan.

It's also possible that the people booing at HT weren't the ones calling for defensive rigidity, but 4-0 wins all the way.

Boos (and foaming forum posts, their digital equivalent) will always be more noticeable than quiet contentment, or for that matter mixed feelings of hope and concern.

And there's also issues of trust and belief, which take time to build. When you've had a bad month, then been held at home by a non-league team, 0-0 at HT vs 23rd-placers ain't time for party hats. But, also, not IMO time for boos. But that's only my opinion, and like arseholes everyone has them, and some folk like to wave theirs in your face :D

But while we're waving:

We were told we needed a win, of any kind; we got it.
We were told we needed defensive organisation; we got it.
We were told we needed a clean sheet; we got it.
We were told the summer signings need to step up; we got it.

This is a side in transition, as it will be for a while. Only two of last night's starting XI were at the club this time last year, and one of those was playing in a different position which I for one would have deemed laughably unsuitable for him 12 months ago, except we weren't even playing a system that included that position. Five of last night's starters arrived in summer.

A little over 12 months ago, in Evatt's second game, I watched his new side look genuinely outclassed by a Crewe side who contained us, toyed with us and destroyed us, beating us 3-2. Couple of months later we played them again and we looked better but they still beat us 3-2 and still deserved it. We then made four changes to the next XI and won five on the bounce. A year on, Crewe have got weaker, we've got stronger. It happens, over time. So do attitudinal changes.

It's a ride. I intend to take the joy from it wherever I can. What I don't understand when looking at my fellow fans is not difference of opinion, to which we're all entitled, but sometimes the deliberate manufacture of misery, the absolute determination to extract the maximum amount of complaint mileage for any given situation. I can only imagine such types watching Baby's First Steps and grunting "Yeah, he still fell down at the end though. And his sh!t stinks." Each to their own, and that. :D

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:25 am

Funny old world innit? I don't think booing helps, albeit own up to being drawn in for Megson's last two weeks. It's easy to forget he was getting booed, his first game in charge. I don't think first half was particularly boo-worthy, but irrespective of all the stats in the world, quite a few did. Suspect they'd have been more forgiving had we not been on our current run, and we weren't being billed as "the best team in the league" and playing the basement team.

I think some on the "doom mongers" side of the fence from what we used to call "Rose Tinters" fail, entirely, to grasp where, the easily pleased, Sammy Lee type "positives" are actually coming from, at the same time being assured that in internet binary they're both right. Nowt unique there, but if people think the crowd will just sit passively awaiting the "project" (ugh) unfolding, I'd say that's probably unrealistic too.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by DJBlu » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:44 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:13 am
I find it really weird that people have literally been calling for Evatt to send the side out to keep a clean sheet and look after the defensive side of things and when he does we get complaints about lack of tempo.
Nice little catch 22 for those that love to moan.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:08 pm

Well, I I think it's an unfair characterisation. People, myself included, have been hoping Evatt might recognise the need to adapt his strategy against stronger opposition. That's a reasonable opinion to hold, irrespective of whether the people booing at half time were of the same opinion or not.

The lack of tempo has been a theme for a long time, not just last night. Greater urgency is necessary for the system Evatt is trying to implement because without it we fail to get in behind often enough and the opposition don't fatigue. I see no issue with people being concerned about how laboured we can be when moving forward. It doesn't suggest an absence of appreciation for the progress the club has made or merit claims those who have been critical "love to moan".

I think we will improve with time and the introduction of better players. I also think we have been naive in our attempt to play so expansively over the course of recent poor results.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:19 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:52 am
You said we lacked tempo, yourself. Is it only a complaint when others say the same thing? :-)

People didn't ask for lack of tempo, lack of clear cut chances. They asked for us to stop leaking silly goals, which we did, although second half, we tried harder to give them a go. I'm sure they're not binary.

Evatt, I think said far from perfect or suchlike in his presser and I think that's where people are, at the same time as being generally happy with the three points.
Absolutely, but there's a difference between saying "This is where we need to improve" and booing your side off after they just dominated a half of football.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:23 pm

One thing I do what to highlight is that during the course of the last two matches we've scored two excellent goals by getting up the pitch quickly, with one or two touch passing (the first on Sunday; the second last night). I'm yet to be convinced it isn't just a reflection of the lower standard of opposition but if we can keep it up we might be getting somewhere.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:30 pm

With Evatt's style of play, more defensive football will necessarily produce slower tempo play - because tempo increases risk and Evattball's defensive strategy is based on possession.

When you are as expansive as we are, you will have huge gaps when the other team wins the ball as you attack. If you want to avoid being caught in transition you have to be more conservative in your play and just avoid transitions.

Evatt can't both play for a clean sheet and play at high speed for 90 minutes.

Look at City at 2-0 vs Utd. It could have been 5-0, but Pepe realised that if Utd got one back in a derby game they might actually have a chance, so he sent City out to kill the game. City became more conservative and slower in order to avoid transitions.

What was good about that game was that we were about to change the midfield shape and play higher tempo stuff to get the goals, then shift back down again. What I would have liked to have seen was us do that for 10 minutes in the first half, because I think we'd have avoided that flurry at the end of that period if we'd scored.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:31 pm

Also worth pointing out that we have a lot of games in this period and the transitions are the most fatiguing part of this style of play, so we won and stayed relatively fresh.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:47 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:30 pm
What was good about that game was that we were about to change the midfield shape and play higher tempo stuff to get the goals, then shift back down again. What I would have liked to have seen was us do that for 10 minutes in the first half, because I think we'd have avoided that flurry at the end of that period if we'd scored.
Evatt said he/they changed system at half-time. Part of me (and, I think, part of Evatt) would like the players to have the in-game nous to do that without waiting for the nod from the gaffer – but then, had they decided to go more attacking and thus more expansive and then conceded before half-time, giving Crewe something to defend, we might have been in a familiar sort of trouble (and, possibly, wondering if the players were in mutiny against the manager). Ifs and auntie's moustache, and all that.

But in essence you're not wrong: it wouldn't be presumptuous to expect a 10-minute push at home to the division's second-worst team. Maybe that sort of decision-making will come with confidence. The more they learn to play in different modes and shapes, the easier it should be to trigger switches from the touchline without pointing at the whiteboard.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:57 pm

How widespread were the boos?
...

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:02 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:30 pm
With Evatt's style of play, more defensive football will necessarily produce slower tempo play - because tempo increases risk and Evattball's defensive strategy is based on possession.

When you are as expansive as we are, you will have huge gaps when the other team wins the ball as you attack. If you want to avoid being caught in transition you have to be more conservative in your play and just avoid transitions.

Evatt can't both play for a clean sheet and play at high speed for 90 minutes.

Look at City at 2-0 vs Utd. It could have been 5-0, but Pepe realised that if Utd got one back in a derby game they might actually have a chance, so he sent City out to kill the game. City became more conservative and slower in order to avoid transitions.

What was good about that game was that we were about to change the midfield shape and play higher tempo stuff to get the goals, then shift back down again. What I would have liked to have seen was us do that for 10 minutes in the first half, because I think we'd have avoided that flurry at the end of that period if we'd scored.

Yes, but the point is that we've been slow to progress upfield when we aren't playing with a defensive mindset.

The domination of possession might in theory reduce the risk of us conceding (although we've conceded an alarming number of goals so far this season) but I can't help but feel it's unduly stifling our attacking play. My own personal theory is that it's because our forward players, bar Dapo, lack the ability to break through the above average teams in this league on a consistent enough basis. That is the primary reason, for me, why we lack tempo.

Now, that isn't a criticism of the club as such, it's just a reflection of where we are in our recovery. I'm still of the belief, however, that it might temporarily be better for our forward players if they don't have to expend so much energy trying create space themsleves and instead attempt to take advantage of the space given to us when trying to hit on the counter. Our most notable victories this season have had more even shares of possession, sometimes with us having a minority share. Food for thought.

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Re: Will This Sinking Ship Go Down With The Crewe? Crewe Alexandra (H) 12.11.21 8pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:30 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:30 pm
With Evatt's style of play, more defensive football will necessarily produce slower tempo play - because tempo increases risk and Evattball's defensive strategy is based on possession.

When you are as expansive as we are, you will have huge gaps when the other team wins the ball as you attack. If you want to avoid being caught in transition you have to be more conservative in your play and just avoid transitions.

Evatt can't both play for a clean sheet and play at high speed for 90 minutes.

Look at City at 2-0 vs Utd. It could have been 5-0, but Pepe realised that if Utd got one back in a derby game they might actually have a chance, so he sent City out to kill the game. City became more conservative and slower in order to avoid transitions.

What was good about that game was that we were about to change the midfield shape and play higher tempo stuff to get the goals, then shift back down again. What I would have liked to have seen was us do that for 10 minutes in the first half, because I think we'd have avoided that flurry at the end of that period if we'd scored.
I'm not sure anyone has said play more defensive football. Vast majority of posts I've seen have said things like "sort the defence/defending out". They're not the same thing.

I've not noticed Tuchel and Guardiola teams leaking 2 per game, as a generalisation. If you're saying it's binary and I can have one or other, I'll take conceded none and might nick one, over shit I've got to score 2 for a point and 3 to win.

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