Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:09 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:54 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:30 pm
And Evatt is being judged on results. And is currently failing. Miserably. So pointing out why his approach has failed is fair game.
Yup, though his approach hasn't failed. He's on a bad run, but the suggestion during a bad run last season was the same stuff and he stuck to his guns and took us up.

His approach has failed when he's sacked.

We are all at liberty to have a go at him. I take issue with a lot of what he does and says. It's one of the reasons we are on forums.

What you don't want is a feedback loop, where you write stuff, read back what you wrote and the replies that agree with you and take it in again as gospel. People who said all this last season were wrong then and are back saying it now; without having learnt anything from last time.

Evatt has succeeded playing his football and he has done so at two clubs - after bad runs, during which fans claimed he had to abandon his principles. This time we have a major injury crisis to deal with, which makes it more likely he will actually fail; but you're premature just now.

I have no doubt that if he turns this around and has a strong finish to the season we will be back here next bad run with people saying the same "abandon your principles" stuff again.

The fact you and others seem to have a "told you so" attitude when they were so wrong previously is odd, but not exactly unexpected. The confidence is to be admired, I suppose.
We went up last season off a string of 1-0’s. We dug in. Many games we surrendered the ball and had players throwing their bodies in front of it to keep it out.

So I don’t buy that last season he kept to how we started the season. He changed system added MJ to a previously lightweight midfield and we started winning games 1-0.

We need to do the same but also acknowledge this is a physical league and currently we are being seriously outmuscled by strong teams and if one can do that AND press us we may as well take the loss before we kick off.

Nobody is asking him to play a long ball game. But what we are doing right now isn’t working. And whatever the reason when it’s not working you change it. Just like last season.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:52 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:09 pm
We went up last season off a string of 1-0’s. We dug in. Many games we surrendered the ball and had players throwing their bodies in front of it to keep it out.

So I don’t buy that last season he kept to how we started the season. He changed system added MJ to a previously lightweight midfield and we started winning games 1-0.

We need to do the same but also acknowledge this is a physical league and currently we are being seriously outmuscled by strong teams and if one can do that AND press us we may as well take the loss before we kick off.

Nobody is asking him to play a long ball game. But what we are doing right now isn’t working. And whatever the reason when it’s not working you change it. Just like last season.
Evatt's "brand" of football doesn't mean his teams can't dig in a fight. Anyone who thinks that (I assume some do from the twitter stuff) didn't watch Barrow, or us, very much.

I agree he needs to figure out how to tweak it, but last season it very much was tweaks and better attitude (and quality) - rather than an overhaul of anything but shape. It was still play first. Marc over at the BN sometimes talks about Evatt as though he's Kevin Keegan, so I suppose that feeds in to things.

Our record this season would be a lot better if we could get set pieces right. If we want an area where Evatt is being a dick, that's one. I can see what he wants to achieve with the short routines, but it's amateur hour - right down to obviously forgetting to practice the routine as though there's a ref on the pitch. We're a smallish team, so they're looking to create angles as the defence pushes up - it's not working. If we want to make a signing before January a set pieces coach would be a good one. Otherwise teach Rico to be less of a 50p head and hit him with it.

Evatt has tried to change it with the double pivot and 4-4-2 block vs Crewe. He got booed, but he won that one and kept them out. Crewe are crap, but still. We shifted things again against Wycombe and were arguably unlucky - in the sense that we were crap in front of goal (not sure that's bad luck). Can't say I was happy, but if we'd won 2-1 it wouldn't have been a daft result. We finished that game with our "no midfield" on full show and we managed to stay competitive. Again, not a good side.

The two home games now will tell us a lot. Like I say, I expect us to win the next one. If the performance is good I will be slightly more confident, but I think we are most likely to snatch a win being "meh" and go into the next one still nervous. I think we'll need to be really, desperately poor to lose it. If we are he's in trouble.

Dapo is crap right now. As in really, really poor. If he can find form that might be enough to get us some points on the board. There's nobody fit you'd hang your hat on to score even a sitter.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:25 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:18 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:14 pm
Oh right, okay. Here's me thinking it's just a difference of opinion. :roll:
We can all have different opinions about what we would do if we were in Evatt's position. That's all well and good.

The questions here have been "what must Evatt do" and it isn't going to play out. If people are really hoping for it they will be disappointed.

Evatt will do what he says. Stick to his principals, back his players etc. He talks a lot of guff sometimes, but ultimately he's always done that much.

I'm always happy to talk theoretically about football. "If Parky had this side what would be do?", "What would Rioch do with this lot?" etc....any "we need to do this before Jan" stuff has to be realistic about the fact that we have Evatt as manager and nobody else.

Whether it's "what I would do" or "what Evatt must do" it amounts to the same thing - the expression of a personal opinion on how we can get the best out of the players we have available.

I doubt anyone on here expects Evatt will change things drastically. I don't see why they can't detail how they'd like him to, though.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:38 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:54 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:30 pm
And Evatt is being judged on results. And is currently failing. Miserably. So pointing out why his approach has failed is fair game.
Yup, though his approach hasn't failed. He's on a bad run, but the suggestion during a bad run last season was the same stuff and he stuck to his guns and took us up.

His approach has failed when he's sacked.

We are all at liberty to have a go at him. I take issue with a lot of what he does and says. It's one of the reasons we are on forums.

What you don't want is a feedback loop, where you write stuff, read back what you wrote and the replies that agree with you and take it in again as gospel. People who said all this last season were wrong then and are back saying it now; without having learnt anything from last time.

Evatt has succeeded playing his football and he has done so at two clubs - after bad runs, during which fans claimed he had to abandon his principles. This time we have a major injury crisis to deal with, which makes it more likely he will actually fail; but you're premature just now.

I have no doubt that if he turns this around and has a strong finish to the season we will be back here next bad run with people saying the same "abandon your principles" stuff again.

The fact you and others seem to have a "told you so" attitude when they were so wrong previously is odd, but not exactly unexpected. The confidence is to be admired, I suppose.

The sceptics were right about plenty of things last season - overlapping centre-backs, the back three, the lack of a physical presence in midfield, the need for width high up the pitch, the lack of experience within the squad, Billy Crellin, etc.

There were few people calling for a reversion to Parky's tactics, just that Evatt needed to reign in his idealism. I'd argue they were for the most part vindicated. The team that ended the season played quite differently to the one that started it.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:42 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:25 am
Whether it's "what I would do" or "what Evatt must do" it amounts to the same thing - the expression of a personal opinion on how we can get the best out of the players we have available.

I doubt anyone on here expects Evatt will change things drastically. I don't see why they can't detail how they'd like him to, though.
They can. I do it myself. We are all of us just waffling on a forum and that's fine. It gets the annoyance out and can be fun.

It is different to say "there is no reasonable response except 'x' for Evatt"...."We have got to do this now, or the world will burn!"

Those aren't just standard "I think" posts and there's no point making pronouncements about things a manager simply won't do.

The inference is that Evatt cannot turn this around, because there's only one thing to do now and it's not something he'll ever do.

The same stuff was being said last year. It was nonsense then and it's nonsense now.

It may be that he doesn't turn it around. He may even get sacked. There's not only one possible response to the situation, though.

If he gets sacked it will be "I told you so all along!" and if he turns it around it'll be radio silence, "He got lucky" or "He signed players too good for this division" and it'll all start again next time we're on a bad 'un - just like last time.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:52 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:38 am
The sceptics were right about plenty of things last season - overlapping centre-backs, the back three, the lack of a physical presence in midfield, the need for width high up the pitch, the lack of experience within the squad, Billy Crellin, etc.

There were few people calling for a reversion to Parky's tactics, just that Evatt needed to reign in his idealism. I'd argue they were for the most part vindicated. The team that ended the season played quite differently to the one that started it.
Not really on the tactics.

We went to a four, but MJ sits in and forms a three when needed. Our shape in possession is very, very similar to the 3-at-the-back. Against Wycombe, for example, when Wycombe went at us Williams fell into the defence and we were a five. The centre backs still overlapped on our promotion run, they do less of that this season.

Crellin and some of the players, yes. That was the key difference. They came in and threw a side together. Most of us agreed at the time that they'd do well to get half a dozen long term players out of that window, but we hoped for the best.

We have seen Evatt do more tweaking recently. We played differently against Wycombe than we did against Crewe and in both cases I think he got the calls right with what he had available.

It's still a recognisably Evatt style of football. The critics were almost entirely wrong about that side of things.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by jimbo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:48 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:54 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:30 pm
And Evatt is being judged on results. And is currently failing. Miserably. So pointing out why his approach has failed is fair game.
Yup, though his approach hasn't failed. He's on a bad run, but the suggestion during a bad run last season was the same stuff and he stuck to his guns and took us up.

His approach has failed when he's sacked.

We are all at liberty to have a go at him. I take issue with a lot of what he does and says. It's one of the reasons we are on forums.

What you don't want is a feedback loop, where you write stuff, read back what you wrote and the replies that agree with you and take it in again as gospel. People who said all this last season were wrong then and are back saying it now; without having learnt anything from last time.

Evatt has succeeded playing his football and he has done so at two clubs - after bad runs, during which fans claimed he had to abandon his principles. This time we have a major injury crisis to deal with, which makes it more likely he will actually fail; but you're premature just now.

I have no doubt that if he turns this around and has a strong finish to the season we will be back here next bad run with people saying the same "abandon your principles" stuff again.

The fact you and others seem to have a "told you so" attitude when they were so wrong previously is odd, but not exactly unexpected. The confidence is to be admired, I suppose.
What you also don’t want is the same entrenched arguments every day going back and forth with no one learning from the other.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:56 am

jimbo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:48 am
What you also don’t want is the same entrenched arguments every day going back and forth with no one learning from the other.
True enough and I take the criticism.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:56 am

If anyone wants to know why Evatt gets under peoples skins it’s this.

https://t.co/jq1S45BNvc

https://the72.co.uk/253010/were-the-bes ... ssion/amp/

So bad run of form we should just be grateful the club is still here remember where we were last season. Don’t criticise us.

Yet just over a month ago…’we are the best side in the league we should be number one’.

As a manager HE sets the tone. And he set the completely wrong tone after an encouraging start and let everyone including players get carried away. You can’t play the sleazy politician game of pretending a week later you didn’t say what is on record. But it was clear even at the time we weren’t close to being the best team in this league. And I suspect on balance our squad is bottom 6.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:02 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:52 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:38 am
The sceptics were right about plenty of things last season - overlapping centre-backs, the back three, the lack of a physical presence in midfield, the need for width high up the pitch, the lack of experience within the squad, Billy Crellin, etc.

There were few people calling for a reversion to Parky's tactics, just that Evatt needed to reign in his idealism. I'd argue they were for the most part vindicated. The team that ended the season played quite differently to the one that started it.
Not really on the tactics.

We went to a four, but MJ sits in and forms a three when needed. Our shape in possession is very, very similar to the 3-at-the-back. Against Wycombe, for example, when Wycombe went at us Williams fell into the defence and we were a five. The centre backs still overlapped on our promotion run, they do less of that this season.

Crellin and some of the players, yes. That was the key difference. They came in and threw a side together. Most of us agreed at the time that they'd do well to get half a dozen long term players out of that window, but we hoped for the best.

We have seen Evatt do more tweaking recently. We played differently against Wycombe than we did against Crewe and in both cases I think he got the calls right with what he had available.

It's still a recognisably Evatt style of football. The critics were almost entirely wrong about that side of things.

With respect, I don't need that explained to me. I'm well aware of it. It just isn't the same thing as playing three bona fide centre-backs. I think my argument that we abandoned the idea of overlapping centre-backs remains valid as well. It didn't happen anywhere near as often in the second half of the season. To the extent it did, it appeared to me to be result of the natural inclination of the individual player rather than a concious tactical instruction.

But that was then and this is now. We currently have a severe injury crisis which is likely to greatly hamper our ability to dominate posession. It's perfectly reasonable to think the situation is now desperate enough that a temporary parking of Evatt's footballing principles is in order. To be honest, I think even before the injury crisis' impact was felt as fully as it is today it's been fair to believe we might need to adopt an alternative tactical approach until such a time as we have enough players with the ability to execute our current one. It certainly doesn't merit being dismissed as nonsense anyway.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:16 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:02 am
With respect, I don't need that explained to me.

It certainly doesn't merit being dismissed as nonsense anyway.
Fair enough on the first, but the comparison was "we changed it then and can now" initially. We haven't radically shifted what an Evatt side does and never did. What is being suggested now is, as you say, a parking of his principles entirely. Conflation of the two is an error and doesn't support the argument being made.

It's nonsense as it relates to the manager we have. He clearly doesn't believe it'll help and I tend to agree. I think the response some on here have called for would make us massively worse and not better. We won't get a chance to find out who is right, though, as Evatt won't do it. Not least because he is talking up how he side has performed this season.

The grass is always greener, so people suggesting we do things that will never happen will always be able to feel right about it.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:29 am

As an aside. I realise reading these back that I could be coming across as a dick. I'm not trying to say that people can't say "This is ridiculous, we are doing the same thing expecting different results." I'm also not suggesting that I know more than any of you lot about football.

I don't think people are right when they that there's only one way for Evatt to respond to what is going on right now.

I apologise if I've caused any offence. It wasn't intended.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:53 am

We make the same mistakes & keep conceding the same type of soft goals week after week. We keep putting ourselves under pressure by the keeper and back four playing this tippy tappy sideways & backwards football which slows everything down in regards to tempo & intensity, and a lot of the times they then lose the ball. Our set pieces as many have said for months are absolutely abysmal.

I don't think Evatt will change the way he plays, and its much preferable to Parkinson's hoof ball - however, surely he can tweak things a bit, tell the keeper & defence to stop fcuking about as much, coach the players to deliver better corners & free kicks.

If Evatt wants to continue playing this style of football then surely he has to try to improve the way we currently play it and play it better and more effective, and if we can't afford better players ? (the Jan window will tell us whether we can or can't), then we need to bring in better coaches.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:38 am

If MJ hadn't got injured, yesterday would've been alright you know.

Not good obviously. But after Wednesday they came out and showed character. You could tell both sides were low on confidence, but that had potential real horror-show running through it. Wycombe get it wide and get it in the box a lot, and they go front to back a lot. Exactly the sort of thing we have crumbled against. And no Doyle or Baka meant it could've kept coming back permanently. Plus Wycombe have got players I've heard of!

And broadly, they stood up to it. Both sides had chances but if we'd come out 1-0 it wouldn't have been a travesty and I think a point on balance would've been fair.

But God when it rains it pours. The next few weeks are going to be grim. Thomason just is not up to it at this level. He looked all right yesterday but that was because they tend to bypass midfield. I will say I don't think the penalty was his fault. He could probably have done better but that was a suicide ball from Aimson. It wasn't on and the risk reward was daft. Even if he got there his only option was to shovel it out to John under pressure. I'm glad we try to play out but the balance of risk reward is all wrong, especially with the midfield we have. I find the criticism that Sheehan hides baffling. He's not flawless but he always always shows in those scenarios. Without him (even with him), sometimes you have to go long. That was one. And we got lucky that they took a truly dreadful penalty.

Aimson is a weird one. He was shocking on the ball again, and that's a bigger weakness then it might be in this team. But he defended well against Vokes, won two or three really important headers at the back post and did the ugly stuff well. After the all the chat pre-season about how big or not our centre backs are, he's defo over six foot and defo the best of the rest aerially. I think he has to get a run with Santos.

But we had big chances ourselves. Dapo 1v1 had to score. Thomason from Kachunga had to score. Live I thought he was unlucky and stretching but on the replay on the big screen he just didn't move his feet quick enough. Kachunga himself had a few down the side where he dithered.

He's a weird one. I thought he played really really well for 75% of the pitch, but fell apart in the box. Battled, won headers against giant centre backs. Linked well, held it up. And then...puff. Nothing.

And then the knock out. Far far far too lax down our left. Throw in, set, all the time in the world and then a really good header. Live Dixon looked at fault but that might be harsh.

But before the KO, came the sucker punch. A spokesman from NASA said that tHiS wAs ThE oNe ThInG tHaT wE dIDn'T wAnT tO hApPeN. MJ down and out. feck. Looks grim from here to Jan. Obviously this is part hindsight, but also I and others said in the summer the lack of depth in CM and FB was alarming. The Sarc thing I can go to benefit of the doubt. We don't know what went on and it could be his position was just untenable. But Tutte was never going to be good enough even if fit. Thomason a kid and an unknown. So 4 CMs we could be confident would be good enough. The only one still standing and fit until Jan is 34. Eek. Even not registering Comley when there was a spot. It's going to be a real test because there is no good combination of what's left.

I'd go Johnstone and Lee sitting. Dapo at 10, and then assuming Doyle is fit again soon Izzy and Kachunga wide and Doyle through the middle. If not Amaechi in and Kachunga through the middle and told to shoot first think later. His instinct, which I like, is to be unselfish but at the moment he's the wrong side of dithering.

Baps did well tbf, another where he's the best of a bad bunch and while it often didn't come off his aerial ability does give us an out. He's leapt ahead of the Isgrove experiment for me. No secret I'm not Izzy's biggest fan (I love him, but I don't think he's really up to it at this level) but he was good too and looks far more confident there. He's still almost zero goal threat but given we're trying to assemble something from half the pieces he gives us balance and thrust.

He's going to have to compromise the approach a bit. We're not going to turn into a Parky side (and IMO not should we) but we have to protect the centre of midfield and i think that means a leash putting on sexy Kieran (for his own good as much as anything). You and George (pick one) aren't moving. Dapo and the front three can have freedom. We just need to keep ticking over points wise until the reinforcements come.

Have to say that unless there's a mutiny behind the scenes, there's no way he's getting sacked this side of March. They kept with him when there was a non-zero chance we were going out of the league. We're currently mid table a division up (which everyone would've snapped your hand off for the summer before last) in the middle of an injury crisis. He'll, rightly, get chance to fix it in Jan.

Also Declan John is getting on my tits. Very strong Marcos Alonso vibes about that boy. All the energy in the world to get forward, not so much to get back.
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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:47 am

At least we got a final blast of Ole's at the wheel at half time.
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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:22 am

Agree with pru - if MJ hadn’t of been injured yesterday is fine. Not shaking the thoughts that Evatt has fecked it here though - we’ll be lucky to scrape a couple of draws out of the next ten games and the knives will be out, particularly given the level of opposition - mostly ‘winnable’ games that we’ll now lose. His saving grace is Sharon - noted Toby Brittany was engaging on Twitter last night promising signings.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:44 am

officer_dibble wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:22 am
noted Toby Brittany was engaging on Twitter last night promising signings.
I saw he was saying "keep the faith" or some such. Where did he promise signings?

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by Prufrock » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:48 am

That's in reply to something deleted so maybe that?

I like the Brittans, but there's definitely a "beveragino" vibe to them.
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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:51 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:44 am
officer_dibble wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:22 am
noted Toby Brittany was engaging on Twitter last night promising signings.
I saw he was saying "keep the faith" or some such. Where did he promise signings?
I've just had a look and he said 'remember where we were this time last year. keep the faith' but I can't see anything about promising signings.

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Re: Not the only Wanderers..v Wycombe away 20-Nov 3-O clock.

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:04 pm

Yep there’s a couple of replies gone. I’d only had a couple of pints so I’m not making it up.

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