Who do you believe?

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Mar » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:08 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:40 pm
Think I'll step back from this one, mainly because I've nothing useful to contribute, but name-calling and raking over old ashes never did much good anyway. Merry Christmas..
Name calling aside I think it is nice to contextualise history. There's a lot that's gone on in the past that isn't overly obvious and bringing visibility to it certainly helps paint a clearer picture. I'm sure ED, PG and BS all have their pros and cons and the time they spent working together was a sight to behold. Whatever the criticism for BWFC's downfall, I don't particularly think that anyone particularly went out of their way to make BWFC worse (with perhaps the exception of KA).

I think for the most part we can look back on the period and think of it as a period of missed opportunities and blatant ineptitude but not necessarily of something we should be pointing fingers at and saying it is solely one persons fault.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:49 pm

Mar wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:08 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:40 pm
Think I'll step back from this one, mainly because I've nothing useful to contribute, but name-calling and raking over old ashes never did much good anyway. Merry Christmas..
Name calling aside I think it is nice to contextualise history. There's a lot that's gone on in the past that isn't overly obvious and bringing visibility to it certainly helps paint a clearer picture. I'm sure ED, PG and BS all have their pros and cons and the time they spent working together was a sight to behold. Whatever the criticism for BWFC's downfall, I don't particularly think that anyone particularly went out of their way to make BWFC worse (with perhaps the exception of KA).

I think for the most part we can look back on the period and think of it as a period of missed opportunities and blatant ineptitude but not necessarily of something we should be pointing fingers at and saying it is solely one persons fault.
Henry Ford said,
"History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present, and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history that we make today." (Chicago Tribune, 1916).

So lets have no more talk of David Jack, Nat Lofthouse, Frank Worthington or J J Okocha. We've got Amadou Bakayoko now.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:44 am

Who do I believe?
I believe Sharon on this. Not I hasten to add because I've fallen in love with her but because I believe she is a credible witness.
I don't believe Sam Allardyce because I don't believe he is a credible witness and there are few, if any, facts to support his conclusion.

The final word I'll leave with Ian King:

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-wo ... s-11503661

Except that he wasn't born to a working class family in Little Lever. He was born in Salford and given up for adoption as an infant to a couple in Little Lever who named him Edwin Davies, the same name as his adoptive father.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Dujon » Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:20 pm

Thanks, Gudnib, for the link.

I hadn't known of Mr Davies' philanthropic leanings other than his financial involvement with BWFC. Mr King's article has removed a few scales from my eyes. :)

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:02 pm

So, let me ask you this, Gudnib. As one who, from what you've written on here, appears to have known Eddie Davies better than most; what were his actual expectations, if any, vis-à-vis ROI?
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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:18 pm

Dujon wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:20 pm
Thanks, Gudnib, for the link.

I hadn't known of Mr Davies' philanthropic leanings other than his financial involvement with BWFC. Mr King's article has removed a few scales from my eyes. :)
Try this one. This is one of three eulogies delivered at Eddie's Memorial Service. Its in its original unedited form as written by John Brodie. John worked for Eddie at Strix. He later worked as a hugely valued employee for a neighbour of mine. That's how I got hold of the script. I never met Eddie but I really wanted to hear the script again.

"It is an honour to be given the opportunity to say a few words about Eddie and his time at Strix.
Eddie was a man of many facets .
He was a man who meant different things to the many people he met throughout his 22 years at Strix.
I have heard Eddie described in many ways by employees , colleagues , customers and suppliers as well as the government and industry leaders who met and worked with Eddie over those years.


Just some of them are .....

Energetic ,determined ,decisive , intelligent , enigmatic ,relentless ,analytical , amusing ,vigorous ,imaginative , innovative , entertaining ,....and sexy ......or ,at least , that’s what he told me!!

Certainly a man with integrity.

Perhaps his over-riding mantra was;

Imagination + Determination = Success

Eddie would challenge yet encourage everyone to stretch their imagination about what was possible and necessary to deliver success.

A summary of some of his favourite phrases many help to give you an insight into his character ;

...Avoid lazy thinking
....You never retire from Strix ....you just spend less time at work
...Teamwork is a high- contact sport
....Strix is like a freight train - we carry no passengers

...If I agree with you we will both be wrong
... When negotiating ....listen twice as much as you speak
...Focus on the things you can influence and less on the things you cannot control
...Is it too late to rule by fear
...There are only 2 choices .....change the plan OR change the team

...Everyone makes some contribution, but once there is a net deficit , it is time for a change
....You may be right. ,BUT ... we cannot afford for you to be wrong
....Do the right thing......Not the easy thing , and Not the popular thing
.... This is not a court of law......there comes a time when you have sufficient information and a decision needs to be taken......you should not wait for proof positive

...No problem is totally new....immerse yourself in it and options and solutions will emerge.
....You will only know if you have made the right decision with the benefit of hindsight

And lastly...
.... There are only 3 types of people ....those who can make things happen ,those that watch things happen , and those who don’t now what has happened!!

Eddie was a thinking man .......a man who thrived on detail ,searched out market intelligence from all corners of the globe and from all possible sources ,taking time to digest and synthesise this information and look for alternatives before deploying an agreed plan with determination and a deep desire to win.

He was a man with formidable intelligence , skills , talent and knowledge who used these attributes to the fullest extent to achieve considerable success and recognition over more than 20 years.
Strix is undoubtedly the global leader in its market and the name of Eddie Davies is synonymous with that of the company in many parts of the world.

Eddie steered Strix , ‘that little company in the Isle of Man ‘ from humble beginnings based in the old Cosy Cinema in Castletown (where his office was in the Projection Room)...................To a company with a truly global reach which today has a market capitalisation of £300million .

In closing, Eddie was an outstanding businessman , a man of character ......a true leader , tough and demanding but always more demanding of himself than others.

To many of us, Eddie became a friend as well as a colleague..........we will all miss those dinners , texts and jokes.

He would often say,’some people leave bigger holes than others’...
Well Eddie, you have left a huge hole in all our lives!!

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:06 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:02 pm
So, let me ask you this, Gudnib. As one who, from what you've written on here, appears to have known Eddie Davies better than most; what were his actual expectations, if any, vis-à-vis ROI?
I never met Eddie but I believe I understood many of his motivations. Eddie was a man with long-term objectives and a desire to achieve things in his life. Never a braggart he went about his business with great determination but quietly and privately.

Whilst his roots and affections remained with Bolton he was an internationalist in his outlook. I remember once flying into Philadelphia International Airport only to be taken completely by surprise by a huge mural of J J Okocha in Bolton Wanderers kit in the arrrivals hall. How on earth did that get there, I wondered? I never did find out but always suspected that Eddie was behind it.

Eddie knew that investments didn't always pay off and I doubt that he ever had ROI thoughts in his head when he decided to 'invest' in BWFC. There was a whole lot of hogwash written by David Conn in the Guardian when Eddie paid off all the bank debt in 2009. Conn was suggesting that Eddie was profiting by it. It was total bullshit but I'm afraid that far too many Bolton supporters fell for it.

P.S. If it helps, I can tell you that Strix shares have increased in value by 115% in the last three years. I do hope that Sue Davies was able to hold on to a few.

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... are-charts

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:32 am

I see that views of the Shazza interview exceeded 4K yesterday. Not massive as YouTube goes but a biggy for Cowgill promos.

I doubt whether it would have happened that quickly if Marc Iles hadn't been prompted into action by someone clocking it on TW or Nuts and still wonder how many viewers were more impressed by the gloss than the substance.

And Bruce, did I answer your question about ROI satisfactorily?

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:07 am

Gudnib wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:32 am

And Bruce, did I answer your question about ROI satisfactorily?
Absolutely you did, and many thanks. I honestly just haven't had a chance to type out my reply, which I will, but it's basically about Gartside's blasé attitude (outwardly, at least) to the amount of debt we were running up on Eddie's tab.
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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:03 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:07 am
Gudnib wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:32 am

And Bruce, did I answer your question about ROI satisfactorily?
Absolutely you did, and many thanks. I honestly just haven't had a chance to type out my reply, which I will, but it's basically about Gartside's blasé attitude (outwardly, at least) to the amount of debt we were running up on Eddie's tab.
I could write a chapter or three on that, Bruce, but I’m not sure it would improve much on one short sentence from Judge Judy. "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

Garty often said that he was ‘humbled’ by the generosity of Eddie Davies. Actually I suspect he was mortified at the number of times he had to keep going back to Eddie for more expecting that it would be the last time that Eddie would come up with the money.

Garty knew that it was extremely unlikely that the loans would ever be called in and that they were more akin to equity finance than loan finance. He tried to explain it time without number but there were few willing to listen. Big as it was, the real problem for the club was not the ED debt. The real problem was the ongoing deficits.

By no means are the problems of owner funding confined to BWFC as Sharon explained in her interview. Similar clubs have had bigger deficits but have survived by finding folk wealthier than Eddie ever was to make up the difference. But new owners tend to bail out much quicker than Eddie did almost always with a lot more wool on their backs.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:27 am

Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:03 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:07 am
Gudnib wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:32 am

And Bruce, did I answer your question about ROI satisfactorily?
Absolutely you did, and many thanks. I honestly just haven't had a chance to type out my reply, which I will, but it's basically about Gartside's blasé attitude (outwardly, at least) to the amount of debt we were running up on Eddie's tab.
I could write a chapter or three on that, Bruce, but I’m not sure it would improve much on one short sentence from Judge Judy. "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

Garty often said that he was ‘humbled’ by the generosity of Eddie Davies. Actually I suspect he was mortified at the number of times he had to keep going back to Eddie for more expecting that it would be the last time that Eddie would come up with the money.

Garty knew that it was extremely unlikely that the loans would ever be called in and that they were more akin to equity finance than loan finance. He tried to explain it time without number but there were few willing to listen. Big as it was, the real problem for the club was not the ED debt. The real problem was the ongoing deficits.

By no means are the problems of owner funding confined to BWFC as Sharon explained in her interview. Similar clubs have had bigger deficits but have survived by finding folk wealthier than Eddie ever was to make up the difference. But new owners tend to bail out much quicker than Eddie did almost always with a lot more wool on their backs.
Yes. The point I think that’s often forgotten is the club was far less reliant on EDs loans on the footbal side until the second season in the premiership. And then the injection ramped up to allow us to sign the Okocha’s etc. We stayed up but that demanded more to stay up again. I don’t think it was disastrous judgement in that had we gone down once we were reliant on handouts that would only make us worse off. So it was a ‘spend X to save spending Y’ situation. But nobody had an exit plan because one did not exist.

Gartside put together a consortium to buy the club once ED stopped funding but then the sudden decision to cease any support and PG’s own Ill health intervened.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm

Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Prufrock » Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:33 pm

I'd be wary of adopting that as my catchphrase, if I were you.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:00 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?
There was a gradual drop off in financial support. But a sudden ‘no more’ that Gartside didn’t expect.

There is a difference in making clear that you want to reduce the financial liability and turning round and saying ‘none at all no matter’.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:47 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:00 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?
There was a gradual drop off in financial support. But a sudden ‘no more’ that Gartside didn’t expect.

There is a difference in making clear that you want to reduce the financial liability and turning round and saying ‘none at all no matter’.
You haven't answered my question, Sir, and you don't seem to have your thinking head on. You are trying to tell me that Mr Gartside was surprised that Mr Davies should tell him that enough was enough after Mr Davies had handed over the best part of £200m.

That doesn't make sense and, if it doesn't make sense, its not true. Your case is dismissed.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:23 am

"I wonder if the bitter and twisted numbskulls that have been hounding Phil Gartside will be feeling any more content today or will they only be happy when the biggest benefactor the club has ever known also departs the scene", I wrote in November 2015.

I happened to discover it again this morning.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:54 am

Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:00 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?
There was a gradual drop off in financial support. But a sudden ‘no more’ that Gartside didn’t expect.

There is a difference in making clear that you want to reduce the financial liability and turning round and saying ‘none at all no matter’.
You haven't answered my question, Sir, and you don't seem to have your thinking head on. You are trying to tell me that Mr Gartside was surprised that Mr Davies should tell him that enough was enough after Mr Davies had handed over the best part of £200m.

That doesn't make sense and, if it doesn't make sense, its not true. Your case is dismissed.
Look I don’t need you to be condescending. PG didn’t believe ED would hard stop and believed there would be a trickle to keep things going whilst a proper alternative plan was being developed.

That is the situation. I don’t really care what you believe or don’t. He knew ED was pulling back but the hard stop point came sooner than expected. PG had plans to buy the club with backing but that fell apart through his own personal situation.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:27 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:54 am
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:00 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?
There was a gradual drop off in financial support. But a sudden ‘no more’ that Gartside didn’t expect.

There is a difference in making clear that you want to reduce the financial liability and turning round and saying ‘none at all no matter’.
You haven't answered my question, Sir, and you don't seem to have your thinking head on. You are trying to tell me that Mr Gartside was surprised that Mr Davies should tell him that enough was enough after Mr Davies had handed over the best part of £200m.

That doesn't make sense and, if it doesn't make sense, its not true. Your case is dismissed.
Look I don’t need you to be condescending. PG didn’t believe ED would hard stop and believed there would be a trickle to keep things going whilst a proper alternative plan was being developed.

That is the situation. I don’t really care what you believe or don’t. He knew ED was pulling back but the hard stop point came sooner than expected. PG had plans to buy the club with backing but that fell apart through his own personal situation.
He 'expected' there would be 'a trickle', did he? Did Eddie Davies say there would be 'a trickle'. If it wasn't Eddie Davies, who said it and when?

How much is 'a trickle', £10m, £20m, £30m and where did PG think the money was going to 'trickle' from? When exactly did he 'expect' that ED was still good for another few million after ED had already spent the best part of £200m, twice the amount he was estimated to be worth when he still had his Strix shares?

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:35 am

Gudnib wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:27 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:54 am
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:00 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?
There was a gradual drop off in financial support. But a sudden ‘no more’ that Gartside didn’t expect.

There is a difference in making clear that you want to reduce the financial liability and turning round and saying ‘none at all no matter’.
You haven't answered my question, Sir, and you don't seem to have your thinking head on. You are trying to tell me that Mr Gartside was surprised that Mr Davies should tell him that enough was enough after Mr Davies had handed over the best part of £200m.

That doesn't make sense and, if it doesn't make sense, its not true. Your case is dismissed.
Look I don’t need you to be condescending. PG didn’t believe ED would hard stop and believed there would be a trickle to keep things going whilst a proper alternative plan was being developed.

That is the situation. I don’t really care what you believe or don’t. He knew ED was pulling back but the hard stop point came sooner than expected. PG had plans to buy the club with backing but that fell apart through his own personal situation.
He 'expected' there would be 'a trickle', did he? Did Eddie Davies say there would be 'a trickle'. If it wasn't Eddie Davies, who said it and when?

How much is 'a trickle', £10m, £20m, £30m and where did PG think the money was going to 'trickle' from? When exactly did he 'expect' that ED was still good for another few million after ED had already spent the best part of £200m?
Look - again if you don’t like what you are told then fine. That was Gartsides POV. EDs funding had been conditional on stronger and stronger business cases for a while. And whether ED said ‘no more’ at any point is neither here nor there IF PG believed he wouldn’t actually carry that through.

PG was a Bolton fan. He did everything he absolutely could for the club, including bringing ED on board. But there is an assumption that the two were working together constantly and in dialogue all the time. They weren’t. PG obviously knew EDs support was running out but I imagine he felt that if he had a solid plan to buy it he could persuade ED to keep the lights on a few more months.

The situation unravelled as we all saw. I have no idea what happened with ED but clearly he expected a better group of people ready and able to take it off his hands than were actually there.

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Re: Who do you believe?

Post by Gudnib » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:26 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:35 am
Gudnib wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:27 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:54 am
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:00 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Why do you say that the decision to 'cease any support' was 'sudden'? That makes no sense to me and as Judge Judy might say, "If it doesn’t make sense, its not true”

When do you say that decision was made and what evidence do you have to support the claim?
There was a gradual drop off in financial support. But a sudden ‘no more’ that Gartside didn’t expect.

There is a difference in making clear that you want to reduce the financial liability and turning round and saying ‘none at all no matter’.
You haven't answered my question, Sir, and you don't seem to have your thinking head on. You are trying to tell me that Mr Gartside was surprised that Mr Davies should tell him that enough was enough after Mr Davies had handed over the best part of £200m.

That doesn't make sense and, if it doesn't make sense, its not true. Your case is dismissed.
Look I don’t need you to be condescending. PG didn’t believe ED would hard stop and believed there would be a trickle to keep things going whilst a proper alternative plan was being developed.

That is the situation. I don’t really care what you believe or don’t. He knew ED was pulling back but the hard stop point came sooner than expected. PG had plans to buy the club with backing but that fell apart through his own personal situation.
He 'expected' there would be 'a trickle', did he? Did Eddie Davies say there would be 'a trickle'. If it wasn't Eddie Davies, who said it and when?

How much is 'a trickle', £10m, £20m, £30m and where did PG think the money was going to 'trickle' from? When exactly did he 'expect' that ED was still good for another few million after ED had already spent the best part of £200m?
Look - again if you don’t like what you are told then fine. That was Gartsides POV. EDs funding had been conditional on stronger and stronger business cases for a while. And whether ED said ‘no more’ at any point is neither here nor there IF PG believed he wouldn’t actually carry that through.

PG was a Bolton fan. He did everything he absolutely could for the club, including bringing ED on board. But there is an assumption that the two were working together constantly and in dialogue all the time. They weren’t. PG obviously knew EDs support was running out but I imagine he felt that if he had a solid plan to buy it he could persuade ED to keep the lights on a few more months.

The situation unravelled as we all saw. I have no idea what happened with ED but clearly he expected a better group of people ready and able to take it off his hands than were actually there.
You've still not got your thinking head on, I see. I know how ED came on board. PG told me himself but after ED stepped down from being a director, who was paying to 'keep the lights on' and who was the owner talking to at the club, Professor Plum, Mrs Peacock, Colonel Mustard?

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