Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:56 pm

I don't think he's wrong. You're right that shots on target are no use not that's nothing to do with control. We made enough chances first half to win comfortably. Even in the second half shambles I don't remember them creating anything.
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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Mar » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:40 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:42 pm
Mar wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:24 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:17 pm
I'm with you in terms of the Competition's importance, Bertie, but Evatt clearly put as strong a team out as he could.

Having 64% (or whatever it ended up as) unimportant possession wins nowt.

They did more with their 30. Worked our keeper more than we worked theirs. No merit in Dapo beating three and hitting the corner flag.
Evatt's putting out teams with the intention of winning and seeing the same problem happen time and time again.

Can't account for mistakes like Dixon's made and won't hold that against Evatt, but the fact that we're not creating enough goalscoring opportunities off set pieces and in general play is ridiculous.

The live website's stats have us as 18 shots with 9 blocked and 4 on target. It's clear to see we're letting the opposition settle and then struggling to break them down. We are lacking impetus. We had 10 crosses today and I don't recall a single one being threatening, i'll make a point of noting that it wasn't hit against the first man but it was consistently wasted. 10 crosses should be seeing a well trained outfit score a goal.

Fossey possibly the only positive to take away from that match and even then that was gone in the 2nd half.

officer_dibble wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:19 pm
What’s the target for Evatt now? He clearly wanted to win this, and we’ve fecked it up. I’ll confirm I would be happy to finish anywhere higher than 20th now but that doesn’t mean it should be a target.
I suspect survival and midtable mediocrity. We've got excuses lined up.
By the same count, mate, they had more shots on target than us. Despite only having 1 corner and 35% possession.

Off target shots count for feck all...
Blocked targets are still shots on target, they're just blocked. I'm counting 13 shots on target with us letting them get settled well enough to make sure they've got people in the way. The opposition (and not just Hartlepool for that matter) don't seem to have that problem as they progress the ball up the pitch a lot faster than we do.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:45 am

Surely they're shots that don't actually reach the target! :-)

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Mar » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:46 am

Ah yes but I'm reading it as goal prevention. They've had to prevent a lot more than we've had to prevent. Our prevention came with ball retention.

We could do with some bouncebackability

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:02 am

I'm just watching through now and thought I'd break it down as separate halves, given that everyone is telling me the second is an omnishambles.

First half was fine. Thommo had an awful time and we were poor with the final ball/finish/touch etc, but there was none of this "aimless tippy tappy shit" that people were talking about. Every time a player got on the ball they looked forward. The movement in the midfield (as expected with what we put out) was nowhere close to good enough and often Santos had to hold his pass and shift the ball to a better angle, but it was never just "let's go sideways"....there was a lot of "direct" stuff in behind and around the corner.

It's the Hartlepool commentary on the playback and they've been pretty clear they thought they were lucky to get in at 0-0. They're right. We had 4 very good chances and another couple of decent ones.

Flossy did well (for clarity, generally - you can see he's not up to the tempo of full footy). Charles, you can see what he might offer.

What that first half should tell everyone is the low-tempo, sideways stuff is not tactical on Evatt's behalf. It's the result of the system not functioning. A proper midfield in that first half and Hartlepool are nowhere in the game. What we do about our inability to sort out that end product is another issue.

On to the second half for the "absolute shit-show"...this won't be fun.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:09 am

Second half was worse. First half Delf was too static, but he was deep enough to be a consistent passing option and he moved the ball reasonably well. Second half he decided he was a forward and totally removed himself from the game. We were still dominant until the last 20 minutes when they couldn't run anymore, but the midfield totally broke down and our quality in the final third got worse.

I'm pretty sure most people commenting on Twitter are not actually watching the match. One or two people make comments and then suddenly that's what happened.

I can understand why Evatt is angry/frustrated. We should have gone in at 2-0, at which point that game is dead. Players then stopped doing the good bits of the first half and kept doing the bad bits. He's right that we beat ourselves. We didn't make them look good, but just wasted a lot of good positions and then handed them a goal.

People slating Santos off the back of that game can jog on, he played well. Fossey was caught out by the pace of the game a few times, but has ability. Johnston was mostly fine. John's end product was diabolical.

Midfield. Yikes.

Dapo is struggling with the fact teams have realised they just show him onto his left and bring a guy over to prevent him cutting inside. That's 90% of his game gone. He was still talented enough to cause them issues, but he needs more support - preferably from a proper 10 with some energy and a real box-to-box player. Kachunga occupied players and was offering good pressing until his injury. Thought Charles was patchy, but has attributes we need.

Awful result, which contained all the usual problems; but still a game we should have won. If it were an isolated result we'd just move on. It's not. We have a run of games now where all the teams are above us (not hard) and some are very good sides.

Most of that side we put out can win you football matches in League One, but at the minute they look deflated, tired etc and you'd also not be shocked if they took a hiding to good sides. If you replace Dixon, Delf and Thommo with three proper League players it's a decent 11.

Evatt's excuses will start to run out very quickly after this window, as by then he should have plenty of talent to work with. Hopefully he gets it right.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:16 am

Where I'll agree with BWFCi is that it wasn't all that interesting a game. We were much better than them as individuals and we wanted to play a particular way, but it felt like a display game at times. Passionless stuff.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:45 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:09 am
I'm pretty sure most people commenting on Twitter are not actually watching the match. One or two people make comments and then suddenly that's what happened.
It’s an absolute sewer pit - I cannot stress enough how much I believe anyone with half a brain should avoid the “bwfc” hashtag during and after the game. It’s like a young persons versions of the BN comments. Your right - they don’t watch the game. They just fire off hyperbole in 140 characters. I would never let any of my players near it if I were in charge.

Thought your summary was pretty spot on. Delf was deffo the big difference - he played well first half then I think he had been told to impose himself further up the pitch second, and he disappeared as a result. Thomason…he doesn’t hide but he was well schooled last night…by some pretty poor opposition. So yeah, needed more further forwards from MJ, which isn’t his game. Need them midfielders desperately.

3 home games out of the next 4 - but all tough ones. Could turn for Evatt this month I think.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Bertie Wooster » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:48 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:16 am
Where I'll agree with BWFCi is that it wasn't all that interesting a game. We were much better than them as individuals and we wanted to play a particular way, but it felt like a display game at times. Passionless stuff.
That's one of the main issues though, generally the players / team lack spirit, passion, intensity etc. compared to most teams they pay, Iles in his post match comments notes that he was speaking to an ex h/pool player in the bar after the game and the guy said that we 'lacked heart'.

Hence most if not all fans saying that we need to sign a couple of leaders in this transfer window, players who hate losing who work hard for 90 plus minutes, players who have that fight, spirit & intensity. The question is does Evatt agree or does he think that we just need better quality tippy tappy 'sideways & backwards everywhere we go' type players ?

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:05 am

Well it’s up to him innit, he either evolves or he ends up out of a job. He made some pretty big evolutionary changes last January. It’s just a harder league this time.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:38 am

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:48 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:16 am
Where I'll agree with BWFCi is that it wasn't all that interesting a game. We were much better than them as individuals and we wanted to play a particular way, but it felt like a display game at times. Passionless stuff.
That's one of the main issues though, generally the players / team lack spirit, passion, intensity etc. compared to most teams they pay, Iles in his post match comments notes that he was speaking to an ex h/pool player in the bar after the game and the guy said that we 'lacked heart'.

Hence most if not all fans saying that we need to sign a couple of leaders in this transfer window, players who hate losing who work hard for 90 plus minutes, players who have that fight, spirit & intensity. The question is does Evatt agree or does he think that we just need better quality tippy tappy 'sideways & backwards everywhere we go' type players ?
For me it’s tempo. I’m not sure that adding in fight necessarily fixes that but we do lack fight and spirit.

I am of the belief that 90% of a football match you should either be doing things to try and score a goal or things that prevent the opposition scoring. There are obviously small exceptions such as running down the clock on a 1-0 or game management when needed to hold on to leads.

But I say we spend far too much time doing stuff that doesn’t do anything. Aimless passing. And the thing is we aren’t moving a team around waiting for an opening and we don’t have a gear shift. So we pass it and the other team are happy to see it passed in front of them as it’s of very little concern to them. Once we do that our only real outlet is the full backs and its fast become very stale and old to watch.

Evatt compared us to Liverpool yet we might have tried to set up like Liverpool do but did none of the things Liverpool are good at. Namely very quick transition. Quality balls into the box early and with overloads. High high press. Our press last night was again utterly inept. And very fast counter attacks.

I’d like us to play like Liverpool. At the (relative to our skill level) sort of pace and intensity they do. I’d like us to even be a bad approximation. Because what we are trying to do is absolutely nothing like it. If you keep your front three high then you have to hit them early. Not pass sideways for ten minutes and drag them back on top of your midfield.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:48 am

Did you feel like you saw a lot of "aimless passing" in the first half?

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Bertie Wooster » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:51 am

BWFCI - so its the question a few on here have discussed previously, is it that our current squad of players are just not good enough to play this so called Evatt 'Barrowcelona' brand of high tempo, high pressing, ultra fit possession based football (that Barrow could play although at National League level) OR should Evatt be trying out a different style of play, different tactics to best use the players at his disposal ?

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:16 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:48 am
Did you feel like you saw a lot of "aimless passing" in the first half?
Loads. If I have time later I will timestamp for you. How we spend far too much time doing nothing.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:22 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:51 am
BWFCI - so its the question a few on here have discussed previously, is it that our current squad of players are just not good enough to play this so called Evatt 'Barrowcelona' brand of high tempo, high pressing, ultra fit possession based football (that Barrow could play although at National League level) OR should Evatt be trying out a different style of play, different tactics to best use the players at his disposal ?
I think it’s a fair question. Liverpool are incredibly good at what they do. I think we have more chance of replicating them than Man City another Evatt mentioned last year. City have gears they go through to cut teams open and that requires quality players in attacking midfield areas.

But I think we could come closer to Liverpools high press high full backs game. But there are things we don’t do that they do such as overload the box with numbers and put early crosses in from full backs. And without that we often are too one dminensional. Liverpool also keep their front three higher and hit them early. I think we should do that.

Whether we are genuinely good enough to do that I don’t know. But Evatt isn’t going to play a long ball game and we aren’t set for that.

Also set pieces - if we were effective from them then the passing game would work better as we’d have more threat on goal and teams sitting in would have more to think about.

Evatt is strangling us with an obsession with keeping the ball. Liverpool don’t have that obsession.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:29 pm

Glad we're agreed that the team with our sub optimal MF should have been good enough to go in HT a couple of goals to the good.

To Bertie's point. I have some doubts about how achievable it is playing this way in L1 on a restricted budget. I genuinely worry that we can attract sufficient players of sufficient quality that when one or two injuries come along, we don't just roll out the "reserves aren't good enough" excuse.

We talk about the system being the best and I don't doubt that for the top teams, but as with many top end systems, they work really well because the components are nearing 100% efficiency. That doesn't make them necessarily as good as a different system when both are running at 60% efficiency...

I'm not sure Evatt could do shitloads at this stage in terms of different systems, because that's not what he's trying to do. As said by others, we're not getting a Wheater, the best it gets is an upgrade to a Johnston...

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:35 pm

I’d also ask those who know what system did Charles play in at Accrington? Was he through the middle on his own like we play?

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:19 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:35 pm
I’d also ask those who know what system did Charles play in at Accrington? Was he through the middle on his own like we play?
In a front two.

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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:19 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:35 pm
I’d also ask those who know what system did Charles play in at Accrington? Was he through the middle on his own like we play?
They're a very direct side aren't they?
Charles may be a pound shop Holdsworth. Running into channels and looking for a long ball over the top like at his old team and yet being asked to come deep, lay it off, play a bit etc

I hope not!
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Re: Couldn’t give a monkeys - Hartlepool away 4th Jan at 7pm on the dot

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:24 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:19 pm
They're a very direct side aren't they?
Charles may be a pound shop Holdsworth. Running into channels and looking for a long ball over the top like at his old team and yet being asked to come deep, lay it off, play a bit etc

I hope not!
Didn't look it vs Hartlepool. From what I've seen of him in the past "Pound shop Suarez" comes to mind, but it's been a while and players change.

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