The state of the squad

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The state of the squad

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:24 am

We've had a few back and forths over the season on here about players. We're half way through now, so it's probably a good time to ask people what they think. Three categories, you don't have to justify your picks, though you can if you want.

Who isn't good enough for this division?
Who is good enough to keep us in the division?
Who is good enough to get us promoted from this division?

You can further break it down into squad and starting players if you fancy.

Where do you think Evatt's "best team in League One" really stands now you've had a couple of dozen league games to judge?

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:21 am

With a fully fit squad to choose from, I'd be surprised to see Delf, George, Harry or Senior get any game time.

The rest, for me, are all capable of making up a L1 side.

For a promoted side I think we'd need a better keeper, centre half, centre mid and striker than we already have.

MJ, Kieron, Dapo, Jones and John. Too early to say on Kachunga and Charles. Those lot could make up the bones of a side on their way to promotion imo. That's at least 3/4 more transfer windows away yet.
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Re: The state of the squad

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:06 am

Top 6 players -
Gethin Jones
The Declan John from last season
Sheehan with the right support
MJ
Dapo

League 1 players
Santos
Johnston (with right partner, possibly not Santos)
Isgrove
Lee (starting to decline now)
Charles (hopefully!)
Xav (though a bit early to call him either way)
Bakayoko (when fit)
Kachunga

Bottom 6 League one/two
Aimson
Dixon
Thomason
Tutte
Baptiste
Darcy

League two/non league
Gordon
Gilks
Brocky
Edwards
Delf

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:13 am

These things all end up in very black or white internet territory. As above I think we’ve got some players good enough for league one but NOT good enough for the roles we are asking them to play or the combinations we need.

It’s easier to think who could be playing in a top 6 side in this division.

For me…

MJ
Dapo
Jones

I don’t think the rest are that level, though for example it’s hard to judge Sheehan when he’s obviously needing some protection in midfield yet hasn’t had any. John I’d say is capable but hasn’t hit form this season.

I’m sure Xav is too but of course we’ve not seen it.

I think we do have a number of players who simply aren’t league one standard or to be fair aren’t in the side we have. And that worries me. I don’t think we should be near the bottom three though as we’ve more than enough going forwards to mean if we were close to solid we could steer ourselves to safety. Evatt’s naivety is why we are down here but there is chance to correct that. If he doesn’t then it’s Owen Coyle levels of ineptitude and poor management. But I don’t think we will go down and I think next summer the test is there for Evatt to show he’s learned from the last two which were both poor.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:25 am

One day at a time, and bridges as we come to them. Right now beating some bottom of the league clubs is a priority, at least in my view.
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Re: The state of the squad

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:28 am

Not good enough:

Gilks, Brocky, Gordon, Baptiste, Edwards, Greenidge, Delf

Good enough:

Dixon, Jones, Santos, Aimson, Johnston, Sheehan, Lee, Tutte, Isgrove, Kachunga, Baka

Good enough to win promotion:

Williams, Dapo

Jury still out/Haven't watched them play for us:

Fossey, Senior, Thomasson, Darcy, Ameachi, Charles

The above is an assessment on the players as individuals based on their performances this season (and so obviously could be subject to change). Some of the "good enough" group would be capable of playing in a team that qualifies for the play-offs or wins promotion from this league but wouldn't themselves (in my opinion) be the players who tip the balance.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:17 am

Tricky, innit....I think it depends on much wider than individuals....Santos and Johnston (for example) look better with MJ/Lee in front of them and Jones/John outside of them, than with Izzy, Gordon, Aimson and Thommo in MF. But we know we can't field the same team every week (there'll be injuries, suspensions etc. even if there isn't a huge injury list + COVID....and I'm not sure where exactly they become incapable of filling the gaps well enough...the old adage of "would they get into <Insert Team Name>'s team" apparently doesn't fit either because they can only play one way...

Then there's good enough now v good enough in two years time...I might have Johnston on the "not good enough now" list, but two years time I might not...

I think my strongest XI at the minute is

Dixon
Jones
Santos
Johnston
John
MJ
Lee
<real struggle>
Kacha
Charles
Dapo

But not seen enough of Charles - so that's hope rather than owt else...

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:27 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:17 am
Tricky, innit....I think it depends on much wider than individuals....Santos and Johnston (for example) look better with MJ/Lee in front of them and Jones/John outside of them, than with Izzy, Gordon, Aimson and Thommo in MF. But we know we can't field the same team every week (there'll be injuries, suspensions etc. even if there isn't a huge injury list + COVID....and I'm not sure where exactly they become incapable of filling the gaps well enough...the old adage of "would they get into <Insert Team Name>'s team" apparently doesn't fit either because they can only play one way...

Then there's good enough now v good enough in two years time...I might have Johnston on the "not good enough now" list, but two years time I might not...

I think my strongest XI at the minute is

Dixon
Jones
Santos
Johnston
John
MJ
Lee
<real struggle>
Kacha
Charles
Dapo

But not seen enough of Charles - so that's hope rather than owt else...
With that line up I’d ask where the goals come from. Presumably Charles and Dapo. But my issue is when dissecting individuals is that we are building teams that seem unable to keep goals out and rely on one or two only to score. Which seems problematic to me.

Looking at the top scorers list now Doyle has gone we have Dapo top with 7. Nobody has hit double figures yet and per game only Dapo will hit double figures this season if the rate stays the same. Whereas Wigan, Rotherham and Sunderland all have players in double figures and 2 or three behind them who also hit double figures even with a decline in their rate.

It’s a lot to put on Charles to score all our goals especially when we consider Dapos goals have of late dried up. Football results are almost entirely based on how good you are at two ends of the pitch. And I fear we are focussing a lot at being good between the two boxes but I question where our ability to score and or keep goals out is improving. Charles seems to be the gamble, I hope it pays off.
Last edited by BWFC_Insane on Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:30 am

Well - which of our high scoring squad would you have me substitute in? Don't disagree it's a problem mate - we can have a squad full of people with "great movement" and "passing ability" but you still need someone to stick it in the bin...

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:42 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:30 am
Well - which of our high scoring squad would you have me substitute in? Don't disagree it's a problem mate - we can have a squad full of people with "great movement" and "passing ability" but you still need someone to stick it in the bin...
Yeah I wasn’t arguing with your choice. I was more reflecting on it that you can write a list of players down on paper that sounds reasonable. But we’ve got the evidence that mostly that will struggle for the goals.

Xav and Charles I guess might both address that.

And I think modern football, you need usually more than someone, you need goals in the side generally. Right from centre half to centre forward. I think it’s unlikely we will have a 25 goals a season man so probably need to rebalance other areas to add more goals.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by The_Gun » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:46 am

Yes, I think Worthy is right in that it's not that black and white for most players. For instance, we all agree that MJ Williams is one of our best players, but consensus amongst Rochdale and Blackpool fans seems to be that they think he's rubbish. That said, there's no place for nuance on football forums, so my categorisations would be:

Not Good Enough
Liam Gordon
Nathan Delfouneso
Harry Brockbank
Alex Baptiste
Adam Senior
Matt Gilks (although who knows)
Andrew Tutte
George Thomason

Good Enough for League One
Gethin Jones
Declan John (could be moved to the next category on old form)
MJ Williams (on the borderline of this and the next category)
George Johnston
Josh Sheehan
Joel Dixon (just about)
Will Aimson
Kieran Lee
Lloyd Isgrove
Elias Kachunga

Good Enough for the Championship
Dapo Afolayan
Ricardo Santos

Undecided
Dion Charles
Amadou Bakayoko
Marlon Fossey
Xavier Amaechi
Ronan Darcy

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Prufrock » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:59 am

Best XI with everyone fully fit for me is:

Dixon, Jones, Santos, Aimson, John, MJ, Lee, Sheehan, Kach, Charles, Dapo

Have excluded Amaechi and Fossey as the question is aimed at where we are re: going up and that isn't happening this year and no guarantees they'll be here next.

Not good enough for the division: Dixon (though fine #2), Brocky, Gordon, Baptiste, Tutte, Thomason, Delf. Assume Senior at least for now though not had enough to judge.

Good enough to keep us up (i.e. IMO league one players): Aimson, Johnstone, John, Isgrove, Baka.

Good enough to go up: Jones, Santos, MJ, Lee, Sheehan, Dapo, Charles, Kacha.

Some big question marks over a few of the last group but that's my best bet from what I've seen (other than Charles which is purely an assumption they think he must be given we've paid for him). Santos needs a partner. Father time is after Lee. Sheehan looked good personally but we didn't get the balance right and obviously questions after such a big injury. Kacha started slow but has been our best player for the last two months and is the one with the intelligence to knit the front three together.

Also I think there's a v good player in Johnstone, but think it's as a left back or in a 3 without serious improvements, and don't think that's going to happen for us.
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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Prufrock » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:01 am

The_Gun wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:46 am
Yes, I think Worthy is right in that it's not that black and white for most players. For instance, we all agree that MJ Williams is one of our best players, but consensus amongst Rochdale and Blackpool fans seems to be that they think he's rubbish. That said, there's no place for nuance on football forums, so my categorisations would be:

Not Good Enough
Liam Gordon
Nathan Delfouneso
Harry Brockbank
Alex Baptiste
Adam Senior
Matt Gilks (although who knows)
Andrew Tutte
George Thomason

Good Enough for League One
Gethin Jones
Declan John (could be moved to the next category on old form)
MJ Williams (on the borderline of this and the next category)
George Johnston
Josh Sheehan
Joel Dixon (just about)
Will Aimson
Kieran Lee
Lloyd Isgrove
Elias Kachunga

Good Enough for the Championship
Dapo Afolayan
Ricardo Santos

Undecided
Dion Charles
Amadou Bakayoko
Marlon Fossey
Xavier Amaechi
Ronan Darcy
I pretty much agree with that analysis (though I might bump Gethin up one). I'd taken good enough to go up as meaning good enough to be the regulars you rely on in a side getting promoted rather than good enough for the Champ.
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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:09 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:42 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:30 am
Well - which of our high scoring squad would you have me substitute in? Don't disagree it's a problem mate - we can have a squad full of people with "great movement" and "passing ability" but you still need someone to stick it in the bin...
Yeah I wasn’t arguing with your choice. I was more reflecting on it that you can write a list of players down on paper that sounds reasonable. But we’ve got the evidence that mostly that will struggle for the goals.

Xav and Charles I guess might both address that.

And I think modern football, you need usually more than someone, you need goals in the side generally. Right from centre half to centre forward. I think it’s unlikely we will have a 25 goals a season man so probably need to rebalance other areas to add more goals.
I agree. I'm not convinced by Xav yet (not unconvinced either - just haven't seen enough of him)...

Without the 20-25 goals a season man, you have to have people like the CD's weighing in with a few here and there...

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:14 am

Santos has looked good for half a season last time. Then an absolute donkey for the first half or last season and this season. Given how poor the defence is now either the others are absolute rot or Santos is being ridiculously overrated by some.

For me it’s clear that Baptistes experience held it together last year. We now have to find someone similar for the level up because I’ve seen enough of our centre half options to know it’s a huge issue.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by The_Gun » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:31 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:14 am
Santos has looked good for half a season last time. Then an absolute donkey for the first half or last season and this season. Given how poor the defence is now either the others are absolute rot or Santos is being ridiculously overrated by some.

For me it’s clear that Baptistes experience held it together last year. We now have to find someone similar for the level up because I’ve seen enough of our centre half options to know it’s a huge issue.
Santos has not been 'an absolute donkey' this season. He's generally been good, with a few wobbles here and there whilst having to play in weakened defenses behind makeshift midfields.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:35 am

The_Gun wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:31 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:14 am
Santos has looked good for half a season last time. Then an absolute donkey for the first half or last season and this season. Given how poor the defence is now either the others are absolute rot or Santos is being ridiculously overrated by some.

For me it’s clear that Baptistes experience held it together last year. We now have to find someone similar for the level up because I’ve seen enough of our centre half options to know it’s a huge issue.
Santos has not been 'an absolute donkey' this season. He's generally been good, with a few wobbles here and there whilst having to play in weakened defenses behind makeshift midfields.
You can make that excuse about anyone in the side. He’s been a donkey for me with only a the odd game being an exception. So many of our goals against come back to Santos switching off in the box. Been exposed by the level and I think not having someone to tell him what to do.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:45 am

Maybe it’s not black and white and that Rico has had fluctuations of form, even within games.

I would say our defence generally has suffered from the absence of two wise old organisational heads in Gilks and Baptiste. Trouble is, they may be wise but they’re also past it. No amount of organising others makes up for being unable to move your body.

That’s another reason why I’d like a Taggart/Hendry type. Not just (and not primarily) a raw-meat-eating beast; crucially, an organiser, a barker, a b*ll*cker, a demander. Trouble is they’re hard to find - especially with enough pace for our high line - and we have other holes to plug.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:56 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:45 am
Maybe it’s not black and white and that Rico has had fluctuations of form, even within games.

I would say our defence generally has suffered from the absence of two wise old organisational heads in Gilks and Baptiste. Trouble is, they may be wise but they’re also past it. No amount of organising others makes up for being unable to move your body.

That’s another reason why I’d like a Taggart/Hendry type. Not just (and not primarily) a raw-meat-eating beast; crucially, an organiser, a barker, a b*ll*cker, a demander. Trouble is they’re hard to find - especially with enough pace for our high line - and we have other holes to plug.
I’d put Baptiste in the Bergson style reader of the game. Someone alongside Santos with that experience and ability would for me be better than a Taggart. As really that is Santos’ role. If we stick with Santos then I think he needs a Baptiste for this level to go with him.

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Re: The state of the squad

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:13 pm

Oh I'd happily take a Bergsson, all day. Where Santos is different to a Taggart/Hendry is that he's not a vocal organiser. Evatt has spoken about that and made him captain in order to bring him out of himself, but there's only so far you can change people's character types.

I don't sign up to the Braveheart b0ll0cks (although I guess plenty of players do) but I think we need a bit of that, and after every defeat there's a virtual stampede to criticise our lack of leadership. Back in his Bolton days Allardyce said there's two types of captain, and citing the leading players of the time we can categorise them as John Terrys (Bravehearts) and David Beckhams (quieter leaders by example), and the impression I get round here at 5pm every Saturday is that folks wants Terrys. I would cite Bergsson and indeed Baptiste as more Beckham than Terry.

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