State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:44 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:08 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:32 pm
Couple of million will get Santos. He’s got aspects of his game to work on if he is going to be a good championship player in my opinion. Becoming a threat in the opposition box is one.
There are plenty of very good Champo defenders who don't trouble the scorers.

For instance, last season Norwich (with a largely Prem-experienced squad) won the Champo and scored 75 goals. Per Soccerbase, players with a (D)-for-defender description got a total of 5 goals, and 2 each came from full-backs Max Aarons and Xavi Quintilla. The other came from Grant Hanley, who always makes me suspect a village somewhere has lost its idiot but appears to have carved out a 350-game career in the top two tiers without ever scoring more than two league goals a season. Alongside him, Ben Gibson didn't score; he's played 230-odd top-two-tier games and scored five.

Not just Norwich, either. Watford went up automatically; of their centre-backs, Craig Cathcart scored 1 in 25 league appearances, Christian Kabasele 1 in 20, Francisco Sierralta 1 in 26, William Troost-Ekong 1 in 32, Ben Wilmot 1 in 25.

I'm not missing anybody out to suit my point, either: I can't see any other goals scored for either team – successful, promoted teams – by defenders who aren't full-backs. Sure, for his height and presence Santos should do better up there, but I do think we were truly spoiled in that respect by the Morais-Wheavers production line. Their goal returns were anomalous. Per footballcritic.com only two Champo centre-backs have scored more than three this season (Aden Flint 5, Curtis Davies 4). Nobody in that division got more than 5 last season, either. Even in the clunkier League One, no centre-back's scored more than five this season, last season or the season before. As I say, we were spoiled.

Santos does have holes in his game, though. Concentration (and risk/reward) is one, but also what you might call emotional management. It's been noted that if he gets rattled early on – even by a non-leaguer like Scott Quigley - he can soon lose the grace under pressure that we all love him for. Doesn't happen often - but it might happen a lot more in the Champo.
The higher you go up the less recovery is relevant and the more reading the game and positioning is important.

Santos recovers superbly but at higher levels you don’t get the chance.his big weakness is defending the box and positioning. He is obviously good in the air defensively but when teams get balls in he’s sometimes been found wanting.

I don’t think he’s as good as people make out. Though I re phrase that. He’s obviously got the physical attributes and speed that makes him outstanding in some aspects at this level. But defensively, as in being a good defender I think he’s short. He makes up for it down here with those attributes that saves his lack of defensive ability. But you tend to be more exposed further up.

You can look at Dapo and it’s almost the opposite. I think it’s pace that holds him back from the higher levels. Santos it’s more a football brain.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by nicholaldo » Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:26 pm

I think that's probably about where I'm at too.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by officer_dibble » Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:38 pm

Put it another way - is he worth a risk for the manager of a championship team? He’s got all the physical attributes. He’s developed well under Wvatt. Could he get better? I don’t see why not. Hopefully it’s with us but I wouldn’t blame him for taking a championship gig next year with the wages that come with it.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:19 am

I think we always tend to assume signings are destined for starting eleven immediately. Fairly sure to some of the Champo teams, they could "invest" to have him as back-up if needed, for the sort of money we might get. So, yeah he probably is :-)

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:50 am

A related question. Fair to say at least two-thirds the clubs in the Champo are desperately trying to get into the Premier; in fact, judging by their wages-to-turnover, they're mortgaging their future on the possibility. Given that, do people think he would be signed by a wannabe-Prem club? If not, is he really better off (financially and aspirationally) going to a more sensible/realistic club, like a Rotherham or Wycombe or Luton Millwall or Peterborough (the latter of whom he's already be bombed out of)?

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am

The_Gun wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm
Twitter rumours this morning that Sheff U and Forest are interested in Santos.
Has any good ever come of any player who's left our place to join either of these two clubs? I can't think of any (though there's probably a blindingly obvious one somewhere :D ) .
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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:28 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am
The_Gun wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm
Twitter rumours this morning that Sheff U and Forest are interested in Santos.
Has any good ever come of any player who's left our place to join either of these two clubs? I can't think of any (though there's probably a blindingly obvious one somewhere :D ) .
Although not direct from us to Sheff U. Basham's prolly done on out of ending up there.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:36 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:28 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am
The_Gun wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm
Twitter rumours this morning that Sheff U and Forest are interested in Santos.
Has any good ever come of any player who's left our place to join either of these two clubs? I can't think of any (though there's probably a blindingly obvious one somewhere :D ) .
Although not direct from us to Sheff U. Basham's prolly done on out of ending up there.
I'd already factored him in as one not having gone directly. David Brooks went to Sheff U after we had him on trial and told him, in true Alan Ball style, that he was too short to be a footballer. They went on to sell him to Bournemouth for £11.5 million :roll:
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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:57 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:36 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:28 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am
The_Gun wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm
Twitter rumours this morning that Sheff U and Forest are interested in Santos.
Has any good ever come of any player who's left our place to join either of these two clubs? I can't think of any (though there's probably a blindingly obvious one somewhere :D ) .
Although not direct from us to Sheff U. Basham's prolly done on out of ending up there.
I'd already factored him in as one not having gone directly. David Brooks went to Sheff U after we had him on trial and told him, in true Alan Ball style, that he was too short to be a footballer. They went on to sell him to Bournemouth for £11.5 million :roll:
Can you just type a full list of "players that don't count" next time? :D

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by brommers95 » Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:51 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am
The_Gun wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm
Twitter rumours this morning that Sheff U and Forest are interested in Santos.
Has any good ever come of any player who's left our place to join either of these two clubs? I can't think of any (though there's probably a blindingly obvious one somewhere :D ) .
Sammy Ameobi did alright for Forest after leaving us. 81 appearances in all comps over 2 seasons - 8 goals, 11 assists.

Now at Middlesbrough where he’s failed to make a single appearance due to a long-term knee injury.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Mar » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:09 pm

brommers95 wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:51 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am
The_Gun wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:14 pm
Twitter rumours this morning that Sheff U and Forest are interested in Santos.
Has any good ever come of any player who's left our place to join either of these two clubs? I can't think of any (though there's probably a blindingly obvious one somewhere :D ) .
Sammy Ameobi did alright for Forest after leaving us. 81 appearances in all comps over 2 seasons - 8 goals, 11 assists.

Now at Middlesbrough where he’s failed to make a single appearance due to a long-term knee injury.
I'd suspect Chris Basham would be a good shout, although he did go there by way of Blackpool first.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:52 pm

Evatt on Sheehan: “ It’s very exciting. He can play deeper, he can play as an eight or a number 10. He gives us great options. That midfield group when they’re all fit and healthy, it’s a strong group.

“What we have to remember also is that we’ve got another transfer window before the start of next season. We’re ahead of the game doing lots of work on who we need to target and where we need to improve.”

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... h-sheehan/

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Mar » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:31 pm

Just out of interest, are we expecting Sheehan to get back into the side as a mainstay or as a player on the periphery of the squad. We weren't in great form at the start of the season and a few of that was attributed to our inability to dominate the midfield. We all know Sheehan has quality but whether there is enough to solidify a starting berth is likely to be in question.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:24 am

I think Sheehan fits in pretty well with what we have as options.

He is the only other player in the squad who gets close to Morley's passing and vision. He's the only player in the squad who can press as well as Lee from midfield. I'd hazard that a lot of fans will appreciate him more when they get to see him playmaking with proper movement in front of him - which we were not getting from Doyle and Sarce. Same goes for his defensive abilities with 3 CBs behind him.

What he doesn't do is come anywhere close to fixing the issues we have in midfield when it comes to power, pace and that lack of a "hard man" tackling mid. If people think that's a vital fix then they'll want at least one more in and you then have to look at who would step out.

I think his return improves the squad a lot. I don't think it necessarily improves the 11. It certainly doesn't give us a radically new dimension like the additions of Charles and Fossey did.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:52 am

Sounds like you are describing a quicker MJ.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:08 am

officer_dibble wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:52 am
Sounds like you are describing a quicker MJ.
Thing is, that's not what I thought I saw. It's not like he never played for us.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by Prufrock » Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:23 pm

I think that's the "what Sheehan doesn't solve bit"

For what it's worth I don't think he was particular good off the ball (he wasn't bad but he's not a hard runner or particular good in the tackle so pressing isn't a huge strength).

Dempsey is that player for me. He's one of the few we've signed I knew and he's always impressed me playing deeper. I know he had one good goalscoring season at Gillingham but he's not a 10 for me.

I'd like to see Morley/MJ/Demspey competing for the two deeper roles, and Sheehan/Lee for the 10. If we play one sitter and 2 8s that only really leaves MJ who's a natural there, though all of the rest could probably do a "job" depending on what you were after.
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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:05 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:52 am
Sounds like you are describing a quicker MJ.
I think I'm describing a player a level above just being a quicker MJ. If we make additions in midfield or attack I'd image it will be to bring in players we think are a decent Championship-level, or can be made so over time.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:58 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:23 pm
I think that's the "what Sheehan doesn't solve bit"

For what it's worth I don't think he was particular good off the ball (he wasn't bad but he's not a hard runner or particular good in the tackle so pressing isn't a huge strength).

Dempsey is that player for me. He's one of the few we've signed I knew and he's always impressed me playing deeper. I know he had one good goalscoring season at Gillingham but he's not a 10 for me.

I'd like to see Morley/MJ/Demspey competing for the two deeper roles, and Sheehan/Lee for the 10. If we play one sitter and 2 8s that only really leaves MJ who's a natural there, though all of the rest could probably do a "job" depending on what you were after.
You’ve got Sadlier too for number 10. Sheehan isn’t the powerful number 10 I’d like. He’s a bit too technical and I think we’ve looked better with more pace and power and less fiddling about.

Morley is a different player. Dempsey adds energy. I still don’t see a balanced midfield out of the options we have. But will depend on the system played.

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Re: State of the Squad 2 - This Time it's Personnel

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:50 pm

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