Where will we finish?

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What position will Bolton finish in 2021/22?

Poll ended at Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:55 pm

1 (C)
0
No votes
2 (P)
1
4%
3 (PO)
0
No votes
4 (PO)
0
No votes
5 (PO)
2
8%
6 (PO)
5
21%
7
4
17%
8
9
38%
9
2
8%
10
1
4%
11
0
No votes
12
0
No votes
13
0
No votes
14
0
No votes
15
0
No votes
16
0
No votes
17
0
No votes
18
0
No votes
19-21
0
No votes
22-24 (R)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 24

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GhostoftheBok
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 6:09 am

TonyDomingos wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 10:20 pm
Yes, but what does your daughter think?
:Jedi:
She likes bees, so she'd probably want Brentford to sign him.

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Worthy4England
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 09, 2022 8:28 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:36 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 11:42 pm
You don't think the second tightest defence, mighta helped them some, too? :-)
Absolutely. They're a very good side, but the player who made them a fantastic side for so long was Twine. You look at Ipswich or Plymouth with similar defensive records and put Twine in their sides and (although they're not as good generally as MK Dons) they make the play offs and Dons don't.
Twine is good, we'd be happy with him. But they won 15 games by the odd goal. It would have only taken 4/5 to be draws (so an additional 5 goals conceded) and they would've been 7th. Still with a similar GA tally as Plymouth...

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GhostoftheBok
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 8:45 am

A dozen of those games they won by the odd goal it was Twine who scored or assisted to get them over the line.

He absolutely was the difference for them this season. If you flat took Twine's goals and assists out of their season they are 32 points worse off. Now obviously they'd have had another player who'd have done a bit of that lifting, but 32 points....

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 8:54 am

For comparison, if you take Dapo's goals and assists out we'd drop 10 points.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 09, 2022 9:02 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 8:54 am
For comparison, if you take Dapo's goals and assists out we'd drop 10 points.
Not necessarily if our defence only let 44 in....

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 9:36 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:02 am
Not necessarily if our defence only let 44 in....
But they didn't and Scott Twine did score 20 and assist 13. And his goal involvements did produce a 32 point swing for MK Dons.

If what you want is for it to be impossible to say that there's such a thing as a vitally important individual in a team then fair enough. I disagree with you. If such a thing can exist, Scott Twine has clearly been one this season.

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Worthy4England
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 09, 2022 9:49 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:36 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:02 am
Not necessarily if our defence only let 44 in....
But they didn't and Scott Twine did score 20 and assist 13. And his goal involvements did produce a 32 point swing for MK Dons.

If what you want is for it to be impossible to say that there's such a thing as a vitally important individual in a team then fair enough. I disagree with you. If such a thing can exist, Scott Twine has clearly been one this season.
I think you are putting team success down to one person and I don't think that's true. I'm fairly sure some of his goals will have come from what other players did for the tap in or how the team broke from back to front etc. etc.. Alfie May had 27 goal involvements for Cheltenham, they leaked 80? goals and finished 15th. I don't think you can put team success or lack of, down to one player, even though there are obvious differentials in quality between individual players. Twine's contribution with 80 goals in the against column, and they're not finishing 3rd.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 9:54 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:49 am
I think you are putting team success down to one person and I don't think that's true. I'm fairly sure some of his goals will have come from what other players did for the tap in or how the team broke from back to front etc. etc.. Alfie May had 27 goal involvements for Cheltenham, they leaked 80? goals and finished 15th. I don't think you can put team success or lack of, down to one player, even though there are obvious differentials in quality between individual players. Twine's contribution with 80 goals in the against column, and they're not finishing 3rd.
What part of me saying "They're a very good side, but the player who made them a fantastic side for so long was Twine." is me putting team success down to one person?

The first thing you disagreed with started with me saying they're a good side.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 09, 2022 10:02 am

You're suggesting he was a 32 point difference. Which if I subtract from their tally would leave them 15th (and not a very good side)

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 10:09 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:02 am
You're suggesting he was a 32 point difference. Which if I subtract from their tally would leave them 15th (and not a very good side)
No, I'm saying his direct goal involvements made a 32 point difference (because you specifically mentioned fine margins). I also specifically said that another player in the Mk side would have done some of that work; however the chances of them doing enough of it for MK to make the play-offs is pretty remote.

I don't think that's at remotely controversial thing to say.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Prufrock » Mon May 09, 2022 10:59 am

Aye, the late 2000s Barca team arguably the greatest side of all time. Take Messi out and they'd still be fantastic. Leave Messi in and weaken the rest and they'd be worse. But he was what made them special.

So I guess what I'm saying is that Scott Twine is league one Messi.
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 09, 2022 11:09 am

Prufrock wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:59 am
Aye, the late 2000s Barca team arguably the greatest side of all time. Take Messi out and they'd still be fantastic. Leave Messi in and weaken the rest and they'd be worse. But he was what made them special.

So I guess what I'm saying is that Scott Twine is league one Messi.
Well. I'm honoured to have seen it! I shall carry that with me. :-)

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by sonicthewhite » Mon May 09, 2022 9:42 pm

Ooof! That's gotta hurt for Sheffield Weds :shock:
Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill!

And the key to a result is a good :kettle:

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 09, 2022 9:48 pm

sonicthewhite wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:42 pm
Ooof! That's gotta hurt for Sheffield Weds :shock:
They were shocking Wednesday. Sunderland much better over the two legs.

Jack Clarke really caught the eye. Looks a player. Nice if we could find one like that.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by officer_dibble » Mon May 09, 2022 10:02 pm

Clarke’s on loan from spurs- he signed the week before they played us and I thought bloody hell that’s a good signing, was glad he was on the bench. 6 goals later and…we’d done Sunderland a favour as it got them Alex Neil!

Hope they go up tbh, we get another crack at anti football merchants Wycombe then.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon May 09, 2022 10:07 pm

sonicthewhite wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:42 pm
Ooof! That's gotta hurt for Sheffield Weds :shock:
Caught highlights of the first leg over the weekend. Sat wondering how it could possibly have become a 3rd division game?!
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 09, 2022 11:00 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:02 pm
Clarke’s on loan from spurs
Coming into the last year of his deal at Spurs too, I think. I wonder what Levy will do there. They spent about £10m on him.

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon May 09, 2022 11:13 pm

I wish I had a Pound for every time I've said I'm not a betting man, but I'd love to know what odds are available right now for us to go up, top two, next season?
Got to be worth a tenner 😉
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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon May 09, 2022 11:17 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:07 pm
Sat wondering how it could possibly have become a 3rd division game?!
Complicated set of reasons but in short, because they've both been shit for ages. :mrgreen:

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Re: Where will we finish?

Post by boltonboris » Tue May 10, 2022 1:27 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:13 pm
I wish I had a Pound for every time I've said I'm not a betting man, but I'd love to know what odds are available right now for us to go up, top two, next season?
Got to be worth a tenner 😉
I saw us at 14/1 to go up as Champs next season, so probably about 8-9/1 for Top 2 placement

Ipswich, Derby, Sunderland & Wednesday are the only teams with shorter odds
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