Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by brommers95 » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:39 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:25 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:19 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:39 pm
MJ has his limitations and they were ruthlessly exposed when he was the only one minding the shop in the autumn 4-3-3. He's still well worth having around, and in the right system he could help us win some promotion six-pointers next season.
I think in this auction market league, the form book being so unpredictable, the same might be said for quite a few players. If proven top class they move on/up and there's no guarantee we'll even have the same squad when next season starts. Also, the loanees might get the reveille bugle to head home. Unpredictable doesn't do it.
Well quite. If they were perfect they wouldn't be here for long, if at all. Even on loan - if you recall, some of us were hopeful we could borrow the rags' Anthony Elanga; he's played in their most recent 11 Premier League games.
Was just thinking this the other day, what might have been :lol:

Good signs that we're looking at supplementing the squad with sparkling of Prem youngster gold dust, I wonder who we'll be looking at this summer...

We now seem to have built a good relationship with City and have the West Ham connection with Nolan (as well as the Sharon Brittan - Mark Noble link). Think I might have to do a bit of digging over the next few months into potential loan signings from each.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by Prufrock » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:46 pm

Christ, I agreed with Insano on Baka yesterday and I think I agree with him now on MJ (though I'd perhaps word it differently).

When playing with a back 4, whether as a two with a 10 and two wingers ahead, or as one sitter with two 8s and two wingers, MJs job was to mind the shop. He was the insurance while others pressed ahead of him. He's really intelligent and calm and reads the game well so excelled.

Since we changed shape, we've lost a body up the pitch, and the insurance is the third centre back. It means MJ has to get a lot more involved pressing high up the pitch and in wide areas. His lack of athleticism and pace means he struggles a lot more. He's still had some decent games but not at the consistently high level as before.

I think he's less of a nailed on starter in this shape, but there's still a lack of completely natural cover for him if we go back (though with Morley and Demspey I don't think it's as big of an issue as it was.
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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:36 pm

brommers95 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:39 pm
Good signs that we're looking at supplementing the squad with sparkling of Prem youngster gold dust, I wonder who we'll be looking at this summer...

We now seem to have built a good relationship with City and have the West Ham connection with Nolan (as well as the Sharon Brittan - Mark Noble link). Think I might have to do a bit of digging over the next few months into potential loan signings from each.
Whoever City had playing in the cup game in January - lad playing with number 70 odd on the back I think, he’ll do! I’m hoping Trafford brings a plus one next season.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:35 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:46 pm
Christ, I agreed with Insano on Baka yesterday and I think I agree with him now on MJ (though I'd perhaps word it differently).

When playing with a back 4, whether as a two with a 10 and two wingers ahead, or as one sitter with two 8s and two wingers, MJs job was to mind the shop. He was the insurance while others pressed ahead of him. He's really intelligent and calm and reads the game well so excelled.

Since we changed shape, we've lost a body up the pitch, and the insurance is the third centre back. It means MJ has to get a lot more involved pressing high up the pitch and in wide areas. His lack of athleticism and pace means he struggles a lot more. He's still had some decent games but not at the consistently high level as before.

I think he's less of a nailed on starter in this shape, but there's still a lack of completely natural cover for him if we go back (though with Morley and Demspey I don't think it's as big of an issue as it was.
Yeah this is exactly what I meant.

What I think we lack is a Gary Speed or a Muamba or whatever, someone who can cover ground and impose themselves on and off the ball. With an engine. And physicality. The way we play and setup if we can create more turnovers I think we will absolutely be very hard to beat as that will give us more scoring chances. But I don’t think we’ve quite the midfield balance yet to do that. MJ in THIS system struggles to get up the pitch where we can really effect the turnover and hurt teams higher up the pitch. But in a 4123 or 4231 he’s immense covering the centre halves and being the anchor. As good as we will get for that. He just doesn’t suit a back three where the insurance is already there and the midfield job is to effect the game higher up the pitch.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:41 pm

Agree with these views on MJ. It's been fairly apparent.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:57 am

I agree it'd be advantageous to have big, athletic lad in the middle of the park; but I'm fine with Dempsey and Morley as the main two.

My question is who steps out. The current roster for next season in those positions is: Dempsey, Morley, Thomason, Williams and Sheehan. Without getting into what we'd do if we were in charge, what do people think Evatt will do with that situation? Dempsey, Morley and Williams aren't going anywhere. I don't think Sheehan will either. Thomason could go on loan, but Evatt keeps saying he will be important for us and it's hard to see who of the other four would become a 5th choice willingly.

Does Sheehan become another option at #10?

I'm not sure midfield will be top of the list of places to invest our resources. Although, like I say, I am always happy to see the squad improved.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:42 am

I'm guessing Dempsey and Morley is part of the cunning plan for the two, but we've actually only seen that combo start once (the other occasions Dempsey started MJ also played)...On that basis, if that's the intention, pick them in against Pies and see how they measure up.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:27 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:57 am
I agree it'd be advantageous to have big, athletic lad in the middle of the park; but I'm fine with Dempsey and Morley as the main two.

My question is who steps out. The current roster for next season in those positions is: Dempsey, Morley, Thomason, Williams and Sheehan. Without getting into what we'd do if we were in charge, what do people think Evatt will do with that situation? Dempsey, Morley and Williams aren't going anywhere. I don't think Sheehan will either. Thomason could go on loan, but Evatt keeps saying he will be important for us and it's hard to see who of the other four would become a 5th choice willingly.

Does Sheehan become another option at #10?

I'm not sure midfield will be top of the list of places to invest our resources. Although, like I say, I am always happy to see the squad improved.
It’s about the balance of the side. You can have good players but to be a great team that wins this league next year, and that should be the aim, we need the right players. And for me a big thing we lack is that ball winner. Someone all over the pitch who wins it back higher and let’s us spring teams on transition. It would in my view be quite transformative, especially in certain games against teams who sit in. Lee is closest we have but I do think it’s a missing piece. Not so much a nice to have as an essential for how Evatt likes to play. Win the ball higher up the pitch is so crucial and when Lee isn’t playing I don’t think we are too effective at doing that.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:57 am

Surely by definition teams who sit in let you have the ball, thus lessening the need for a ball-winner. Against teams who sit in what you need is players who can pull them around and pull them apart.

Could just be me not understanding terms in the same way as you, which is fine. Personally I see a ball-winner as a Makelele or Kante; you've cited Muamba and Speed (although Speedo, while an excellent ball-winner, had a lot more in his locker too). All those players have traditionally played deeper in midfield - the pivot of the old Allardyce 4-3-3 (or the first 1 in the 4-1-4-1).

But these days they can operate further forward. What you might mean (judging by "win it back higher") is players good at the high press. I think in Charles and Dapo, for two, we have very busy ball-chasers. I suspect others will be told to follow, because the high press has to be unified and orchestrated or even relatively poor teams can pass their way around it these days (and have then quite possibly bypassed half your team).

It's possible the switch from last spring's 4231 to this autumn's 433 was fuelled by signing Sheehan but was also partly to get more players forward for the high press; however, it had the effect of making us very susceptible on defensive transitions (ie getting back in shape when we lose the ball) – not least as we were frequently asking MJ to lope across the width of the pitch as the overworked security guard (given we'd often have our full-backs bombing on and thus easily bypassed). The jump in average opponent ability from D4 to D3, combined with our exploitability on defensive transitions, caused us a lot of problems.

If you're asking would I want a Muamba at No.10, then no. (I'm reminded once more of Bruce Rioja's peerless response to someone mentioning "Muamba's shooting boots", which our boy Bruce compared to Anne Frank's drumkit.) I think Evatt may have hoped Dempsey could bring that energetic harrying to the role, but the manager seems to have quickly re-evaluated Dempsey as a deeper midfielder – and from what I've seen, that's the right call. But it could still be that in the harder games, Dempsey becomes the new Lee at 10, with MJ alongside Morley behind him (whether that's in a 3-4-1-2 or a 4-2-3-1).

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:37 pm

You don't want a Muamba anywhere near a forward role in this system.

You're arguably looking at more of a Nolan or a Wijnaldum, but there are lots of ways to play. As DSB says its about pressing rather than a classic Roy Keane sort. Lee is just that, an intelligent presser.

An ideal "type" would be Bernardo Silva. What a League One Bernardo Silva looks like others can debate.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:27 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:37 pm
You don't want a Muamba anywhere near a forward role in this system.

You're arguably looking at more of a Nolan or a Wijnaldum, but there are lots of ways to play. As DSB says its about pressing rather than a classic Roy Keane sort. Lee is just that, an intelligent presser.

An ideal "type" would be Bernardo Silva. What a League One Bernardo Silva looks like others can debate.
Hopefully a L1 Bernado is identical to the Prem version! :-)

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:59 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:57 am
Surely by definition teams who sit in let you have the ball, thus lessening the need for a ball-winner. Against teams who sit in what you need is players who can pull them around and pull them apart.

Could just be me not understanding terms in the same way as you, which is fine. Personally I see a ball-winner as a Makelele or Kante; you've cited Muamba and Speed (although Speedo, while an excellent ball-winner, had a lot more in his locker too). All those players have traditionally played deeper in midfield - the pivot of the old Allardyce 4-3-3 (or the first 1 in the 4-1-4-1).

But these days they can operate further forward. What you might mean (judging by "win it back higher") is players good at the high press. I think in Charles and Dapo, for two, we have very busy ball-chasers. I suspect others will be told to follow, because the high press has to be unified and orchestrated or even relatively poor teams can pass their way around it these days (and have then quite possibly bypassed half your team).

It's possible the switch from last spring's 4231 to this autumn's 433 was fuelled by signing Sheehan but was also partly to get more players forward for the high press; however, it had the effect of making us very susceptible on defensive transitions (ie getting back in shape when we lose the ball) – not least as we were frequently asking MJ to lope across the width of the pitch as the overworked security guard (given we'd often have our full-backs bombing on and thus easily bypassed). The jump in average opponent ability from D4 to D3, combined with our exploitability on defensive transitions, caused us a lot of problems.

If you're asking would I want a Muamba at No.10, then no. (I'm reminded once more of Bruce Rioja's peerless response to someone mentioning "Muamba's shooting boots", which our boy Bruce compared to Anne Frank's drumkit.) I think Evatt may have hoped Dempsey could bring that energetic harrying to the role, but the manager seems to have quickly re-evaluated Dempsey as a deeper midfielder – and from what I've seen, that's the right call. But it could still be that in the harder games, Dempsey becomes the new Lee at 10, with MJ alongside Morley behind him (whether that's in a 3-4-1-2 or a 4-2-3-1).
I don’t mean playing them as a number 10 necessarily. But I do mean someone who can win the ball higher up the pitch. These days winning the ball means that ability to intercept mainly. So ability to get round the pitch and do the sort of job Kante might for modern day Chelsea. Or Muamba did for us. Not a sitter, at least in the system we are playing, but someone with that engine and intelligence to effect turnovers higher up the pitch. Speed is a good example of a player who could do this well.

And yes against deeper lying teams obviously there are fewer opportunities to do this but creating more transitions when they have the ball and are looking to escape is often the way to break those teams down.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:57 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:27 pm
Hopefully a L1 Bernado is identical to the Prem version! :-)
I'd take Bernardo Bronze at this level.

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Re: Back on track or up the Junction.? V Crewe away, Sat19th Mar. 3-0'clock.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:57 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:27 pm
Hopefully a L1 Bernado is identical to the Prem version! :-)
I'd take Bernardo Bronze at this level.
Can he dance the mambo? :D
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