Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:24 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:19 am
It is my sad duty to announce that we will not be signing Mark Beevers. He has gone to Perth Glory down in Oz.
Anyone else's first reaction to that, he's gone to a titty bar?

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:33 am

Evatt says in today's papers that Bradley was our number one January priority and first choice over signing Fossey.

Funny game, football.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:38 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:33 am
Evatt says in today's papers that Bradley was our number one January priority and first choice over signing Fossey.

Funny game, football.
The thing is and I don’t mind it managers have to do it to some extent, but in January Evatt claimed we had signed every first choice target.

I think as managers do most things he says are pretty much whatever he has to. He said we want all our business done for start of pre season. No he says no we just have to be patient. Evatt is just doing his job of saying what needs to be said. But I think it’s obvious he will play the PR game like most do. Like Allardyce did at least initially.

I don’t blame him or mind it. But I think we should assume that everything he says, rather like a politician, can be taken with at least a very large pinch of salt.

Like the start of last season he had the ideal squad apparently. His own judgement is covered up for and also the situation the club is in. It’s part of his job.

And I will add if Evatt wants us to take him at his word then we can very quickly assess his judgement. If Bradley was and is first choice over Fossey we can compare their suitability quite quickly. To see who can make the biggest impact.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:11 am

TBF allegedly we signed a RB, when we signed Fossey. He didn't look great at RB.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:50 am

Evatt talks bollocks, but giving him the benefit of the doubt Fossey arrived in the first few days of the window - so the chances are we knew Bradley wasn't an option before we drew up our recruitment strategy for that window. He might have been one we'd really wanted, but may never have made it to the short lists.

You can make snap judgements after a few games if you want and I'm sure we'll all enjoy you and various other posters going at it over the course of the season, but for me this deal is about the impact Bradley has over the length of the deal.

Fossey was great for us, but also missed 1/3 of the games after he arrived. He was then crap in maybe 3-4 of the ones he did play, so he had a hit rate of about 50% over the loan. If Bradley is good in 50% of our games next season does that mean you'll be a happy camper?

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:24 am

I'm sure there will be people, on here and elsewhere, who will make our every defeat and shortcoming that much more fun by green-grassing about alternate universes, which will remain forever unimprovable because they're forever unprovable.

However, if a manager doesn't want to encourage it, he probably shouldn't indulge in idly comparing an 18-year-old to a 23-year-old. By essentially saying Bradley is a better player than Fossey, he's doing a few things. One is flicking Vs at Fossey. Another is denying Bradley is this summer's sloppy seconds. A third is building Bradley up, arguably to boost the boy's confidence, although it's a dangerous game. And another thing he's doing is the football equivalent of a 14-year-old walking his new girlfriend past the front window of the lass that's just rejected him.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:27 am

Aye - Fossey still hasn’t signed anywhere!

The other thing that struck me was Fossey was loaned with a view to signing, Bradley is here on a purely developmental basis.

Frankly if he’s good and helps us get promoted it’s job done, but we’ll need a better option next year.

All we can do is back the ones that do sign, and not worry too much about the ones that don’t.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:40 am

One other thing. Fossey felt like a loan with a view to purchase; indeed, that seems to have been what Evatt was hinting at in early February – deal's done, etc. For starters that seems to clash with the idea that we wanted Bradley at some point, but more importantly: what, right now, are the odds of us signing Bradley permanently? I would say the better he plays, the more Liverpool are likely to keep him, understandably so. If he succeeds, they might loan him to the Champo next year, and that could be us again. And perhaps somewhere along the line, they'll decree his ceiling is below their needs, and we'll be in a position to buy him. But it's a long way and a lot of variables away, compared to a Fossey or a Dapo.

Now, this is not to say that I'm against borrowing the best players possible from the best clubs possible. Trafford is an example. But it does, I think, raise questions about the business model. We will need to find as many Dapos as Traffords, as well as what you might call "solid pro" players for whatever level we're at - from Aimsons and Isgroves to Dempseys and SexyKierans. I suspect Jack Tucker would have been more of a Morley - small-fee gamble on future profit. Feels like we need to collect at least one per window of either those or Dapo-style high-ceiling freebies.

EDIT While I waffled, Dibs has made essentially the same point but much more pithily...

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:57 am

Soft-hearted me; I'd still be chuffed if there way way back for Fossey. He seemed happy here before his injury and I'd like to think it was his agent and maybe Fulham rather than him who stalled the deal. Then again, I've been known to believe in faries.. :mrgreen:
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:24 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:57 am
Soft-hearted me; I'd still be chuffed if there way way back for Fossey. He seemed happy here before his injury and I'd like to think it was his agent and maybe Fulham rather than him who stalled the deal. Then again, I've been known to believe in faries.. :mrgreen:
Yeah I'd have him back too mate, but not for a major chunk of our Transfer WarChest.

To be fair to Fulham, they have trained him since the age of 11 - more than half his life - and they are entitled to maximise their return on that investment. Had his contract ended this summer rather than next, it perhaps might have been different, if it's the fee rather than the rivals that's the problem. I still think we're a better bet for him than most, but again he's entitled to his own ambition, and maybe after such a stop-start career he doesn't fancy risking another year as low as the third tier. Que sera sera.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:26 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:24 am
I'm sure there will be people, on here and elsewhere, who will make our every defeat and shortcoming that much more fun by green-grassing about alternate universes, which will remain forever unimprovable because they're forever unprovable.

However, if a manager doesn't want to encourage it, he probably shouldn't indulge in idly comparing an 18-year-old to a 23-year-old. By essentially saying Bradley is a better player than Fossey, he's doing a few things. One is flicking Vs at Fossey. Another is denying Bradley is this summer's sloppy seconds. A third is building Bradley up, arguably to boost the boy's confidence, although it's a dangerous game. And another thing he's doing is the football equivalent of a 14-year-old walking his new girlfriend past the front window of the lass that's just rejected him.
Well that’s sort of my point. He goes to lengths to say how great everything is. Which I understand. But he could equally have answered this with ‘Fossey was a player we obviously wanted but the price went above where we could go. Bradley is one we’ve looked at for a long time and is a excellent player in his own right’.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:40 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:26 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:24 am
I'm sure there will be people, on here and elsewhere, who will make our every defeat and shortcoming that much more fun by green-grassing about alternate universes, which will remain forever unimprovable because they're forever unprovable.

However, if a manager doesn't want to encourage it, he probably shouldn't indulge in idly comparing an 18-year-old to a 23-year-old. By essentially saying Bradley is a better player than Fossey, he's doing a few things. One is flicking Vs at Fossey. Another is denying Bradley is this summer's sloppy seconds. A third is building Bradley up, arguably to boost the boy's confidence, although it's a dangerous game. And another thing he's doing is the football equivalent of a 14-year-old walking his new girlfriend past the front window of the lass that's just rejected him.
Well that’s sort of my point. He goes to lengths to say how great everything is. Which I understand. But he could equally have answered this with ‘Fossey was a player we obviously wanted but the price went above where we could go. Bradley is one we’ve looked at for a long time and is a excellent player in his own right’.
Agreed.

Promise you won't pine for the Yankee dollar-chaser if the kid has a bad game.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:50 am

We've moved on, whichever way you want to cut it, so it's all if my Aunt had balls...we were a pace setter in second half of season and whilst we're bemoaning, not every team will get all their first picks.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:10 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:50 am
We've moved on, whichever way you want to cut it, so it's all if my Aunt had balls...we were a pace setter in second half of season and whilst we're bemoaning, not every team will get all their first picks.
...and some will be losing their key players from last season, like MK losing Twine and Darling. Wycombe's veterans are a year older (and the keeper's gone to Wednesday); Oxford have lost goalscoring midfielder Mark Sykes to Bristol City.

Wednesday seem to be doing OK though – don't seem to have lost anyone and Vaulks is a good freebie at this level – and Ipswich have picked up Freddie Ladapo and Dom Ball without losing anyone. Plymouth, too, haven't lost anyone and have added Pat Butcher, but in their case let's see whether Schumacher can maintain Lowe's work in his first full season.

I still think loanees will have a big bearing on who finishes in the top six, again. MK borrowed a Spurs striker who hit double figures. Wednesday had a Burnley goalie playing 47 times. Sunderland had a City centre-back, a Spurs winger and a 13-goal Everton striker. Rotherham got 38 games from a Huddersfield centre-back, Wigan 27 from a Newcastle centre-back. I ain't above seeking similar benefits.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:39 pm

Aye, agreed DSB.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:40 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:40 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:26 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:24 am
I'm sure there will be people, on here and elsewhere, who will make our every defeat and shortcoming that much more fun by green-grassing about alternate universes, which will remain forever unimprovable because they're forever unprovable.

However, if a manager doesn't want to encourage it, he probably shouldn't indulge in idly comparing an 18-year-old to a 23-year-old. By essentially saying Bradley is a better player than Fossey, he's doing a few things. One is flicking Vs at Fossey. Another is denying Bradley is this summer's sloppy seconds. A third is building Bradley up, arguably to boost the boy's confidence, although it's a dangerous game. And another thing he's doing is the football equivalent of a 14-year-old walking his new girlfriend past the front window of the lass that's just rejected him.
Well that’s sort of my point. He goes to lengths to say how great everything is. Which I understand. But he could equally have answered this with ‘Fossey was a player we obviously wanted but the price went above where we could go. Bradley is one we’ve looked at for a long time and is a excellent player in his own right’.
Agreed.

Promise you won't pine for the Yankee dollar-chaser if the kid has a bad game.
It’s not a case of pining. It’s a case of seeing if Evatt recognised why Fossey made that system work and whether he’s managed to adequately recruit to it in his place. We will all see that.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:52 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:40 pm
It’s not a case of pining. It’s a case of seeing if Evatt recognised why Fossey made that system work and whether he’s managed to adequately recruit to it in his place. We will all see that.
I half-agree.

Bradley's success or failure will go a long way to deciding whether Evatt has recruited successfully – especially for the right-wingback position, which we all acknowledged needed strengthening, but also to some extent the whole summer. It's not a supermarket sweep, we don't have many glaring weaknesses, so a key signing like this will be a key part of assessing the window's effectiveness.

What it can't tell us is Evatt's intentions. If Bradley is underwhelming, or erratic, it doesn't tell us that Evatt ignored or failed to recognise Fossey's strengths. That is supposition. Bradley ≠ Fossey; you get types, but you rarely get clones. Maybe there is nobody quite of Fossey's type - fast, athletic, not brilliant at defending - that's available at the moment, or deemed good enough. Maybe Bradley offers some tactical tweak we don't yet know. (Perhaps, for instance, he's as good at right-back as he is at right-wing. Our defence still needs work.)

We can't know that. We can only speculate. But there is definitely false equivalence in claiming that if Bradley fails, Evatt didn't recognise Fossey's strengths. The dude didn't want to come here, so we move on.

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:15 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:40 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:40 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:26 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:24 am
I'm sure there will be people, on here and elsewhere, who will make our every defeat and shortcoming that much more fun by green-grassing about alternate universes, which will remain forever unimprovable because they're forever unprovable.

However, if a manager doesn't want to encourage it, he probably shouldn't indulge in idly comparing an 18-year-old to a 23-year-old. By essentially saying Bradley is a better player than Fossey, he's doing a few things. One is flicking Vs at Fossey. Another is denying Bradley is this summer's sloppy seconds. A third is building Bradley up, arguably to boost the boy's confidence, although it's a dangerous game. And another thing he's doing is the football equivalent of a 14-year-old walking his new girlfriend past the front window of the lass that's just rejected him.
Well that’s sort of my point. He goes to lengths to say how great everything is. Which I understand. But he could equally have answered this with ‘Fossey was a player we obviously wanted but the price went above where we could go. Bradley is one we’ve looked at for a long time and is a excellent player in his own right’.
Agreed.

Promise you won't pine for the Yankee dollar-chaser if the kid has a bad game.
It’s not a case of pining. It’s a case of seeing if Evatt recognised why Fossey made that system work and whether he’s managed to adequately recruit to it in his place. We will all see that.
But given the heights to which you've boosted Fossey there's probably only TAA we could try and sign, who might get somewhere near satisfying your definition of "adequate" so I'll take a gamble and tell you now, they're going to be a disappointment and we need to play 442 with some hulking midfielders..

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:18 pm

Asked by a punter if we're still chasing a centre-back and defensive midfielder, Nixon replies "Centre back after missing Tucker … forward with pace (Barkhuizen) … maybe others"

Which is vague but it's interesting to hear pace specified

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Re: Deal or no deal? - Summer 2022 Transfer gossip!

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:03 pm

Saying "Fossey made the system work" is anachronistic. The system made Fossey work, it was the player who arrived first. We saw what we had and Evatt adapted to produce the best football with the tools he had. To twist that to suggest Evatt didn't understand why his system worked is genuinely weird.

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