We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:57 pm

Genuinely hard to know on Amaechi. From the outside you could assume he's had an awful time here, but there's another way to look at it. He's had a horrendous season for injuries and the club and manager here have stuck by him. All parties agreed to extend his loan in January and we've supported him through rehab, giving him time and bringing him back into the team once fit.

For a young player, that kind of support might actually be a huge positive. There are a lot of players who go on loan, get hurt and end up frozen out. There's been none of that here. The injuries were (hopefully) out of our control, but it looks like we have treated the player exceptionally well.

The player may well have ended up hating the injuries and loving the club.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by Mar » Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:20 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:57 pm
Genuinely hard to know on Amaechi. From the outside you could assume he's had an awful time here, but there's another way to look at it. He's had a horrendous season for injuries and the club and manager here have stuck by him. All parties agreed to extend his loan in January and we've supported him through rehab, giving him time and bringing him back into the team once fit.

For a young player, that kind of support might actually be a huge positive. There are a lot of players who go on loan, get hurt and end up frozen out. There's been none of that here. The injuries were (hopefully) out of our control, but it looks like we have treated the player exceptionally well.

The player may well have ended up hating the injuries and loving the club.
Hopefully. He seems like a natural challenger for Dapo's role and given a good run of form could probably do the role justice. Evatt has given indicators he's working hard to impress so one would think that he's not just being idle and sitting out the contract like the Comley situation.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:32 pm

Honestly I will be very surprised if Ameachi is here next season. He’s got tonnes of ability but little clue as to how it can be applied.

Whilst I think there is a gem in there potentially, he wouldn’t be cheap and you can’t guarantee you can harness his quality ever. He’s not one for me if we genuinely are serious about being top two.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:13 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:32 pm
Honestly I will be very surprised if Ameachi is here next season. He’s got tonnes of ability but little clue as to how it can be applied.

Whilst I think there is a gem in there potentially, he wouldn’t be cheap and you can’t guarantee you can harness his quality ever. He’s not one for me if we genuinely are serious about being top two.
Seems a somewhat contradictory post? A gem with tons of ability but clueless how to use it. Surely that's for a manager to sort out?
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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by Prufrock » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:20 pm

If we could get him for six figures or so I'd defo take him, but I'd defo be playing a front three. There's a player in there but might take some time to come out. If we're the ultimate beneficiaries, great. But if we're using a loan I'd be looking for better in the here and now.
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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:46 pm

The bottom line is we'd not have taken him for a second loan period if we didn't rate him.

There are lots of reasons you could give for us not keeping him, but issues around ability don't seem to make that list - at least for the staff.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:48 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:13 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:32 pm
Honestly I will be very surprised if Ameachi is here next season. He’s got tonnes of ability but little clue as to how it can be applied.

Whilst I think there is a gem in there potentially, he wouldn’t be cheap and you can’t guarantee you can harness his quality ever. He’s not one for me if we genuinely are serious about being top two.
Seems a somewhat contradictory post? A gem with tons of ability but clueless how to use it. Surely that's for a manager to sort out?
If we are intent on building the squad with the qualities to win the league next season then he is far from the finished article ready to step in and deliver week in week out. It’s a longer game in terms of his development. There is a potentially longer term pay off but it would tie up a lot of resources in a player who doesn’t guarantee improving the team next season.

If this question was asked in the context of taking a player to build up over time he looks a good bet to me. But he’s on a big contract at a relatively big European club and we need to hit the ground running next season. I’m not convinced the club will be taking project players on when it will cost them considerable money which he would.

Just how I’d see it.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by sonicthewhite » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:52 pm

Then again, if we could get him for a cut price fee then he'd be a candidate for the B team surely?
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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:53 pm

Those last six days he stayed in the womb might end up making the difference in his career. They make him underage – not just for us, but any potential EFL suitor – and thus a free pass in terms of squad size. True, his wages still cost, and in the end I think that might be a determinant factor; remember, there was much talk of him taking a pay cut to come here, and it's not exactly as if his parent club have had a brilliant return on their slice of his wages – assuming they're still paying him, and the cut wasn't "you borrow him, you pay him what %age you can and agree with him – we're paying nowt".

I've no idea what our wage structure is like and whether we would use a non-negligible slice of it on a young player who might come (very) good but has yet to prove it consistently in front of paying customers. But if we don't, maybe someone else will. That's not me being a hopeless gambler saying "someone's got to win the lottery" - I'm just saying he's likely to get a loan somewhere, and it would be intriguing to see whether it was a notional step up or down from here. He enters the last season of his Hamburg contract, and you imagine that during its course, his bargaining position has weakened rather than strengthened. That's why he needs a loan somewhere, and that's why those six days - meaning he's still underage - might just help his career.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:55 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:48 pm
If we are intent on building the squad with the qualities to win the league next season then he is far from the finished article ready to step in and deliver week in week out. It’s a longer game in terms of his development. There is a potentially longer term pay off but it would tie up a lot of resources in a player who doesn’t guarantee improving the team next season.

If this question was asked in the context of taking a player to build up over time he looks a good bet to me. But he’s on a big contract at a relatively big European club and we need to hit the ground running next season. I’m not convinced the club will be taking project players on when it will cost them considerable money which he would.

Just how I’d see it.
How do we know how good he can be when we've not seen him fully fit and he's never had a run of games for us?

Despite that, he took his defender to the cleaners 3-4 times last game. He was wasteful, but then you expect that when a player isn't fully fit and is probably lacking confidence. He did put in two excellent balls that someone probably should have been on the end of. I thought he did alright, considering.

That's not to say you're right or wrong in terms of corresponding to reality, I'm just not sure how we can justify saying "He will be like this next season" when we've seen nothing of him.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:56 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:48 pm
If we are intent on building the squad with the qualities to win the league next season then he is far from the finished article ready to step in and deliver week in week out. It’s a longer game in terms of his development. There is a potentially longer term pay off but it would tie up a lot of resources in a player who doesn’t guarantee improving the team next season.

If this question was asked in the context of taking a player to build up over time he looks a good bet to me. But he’s on a big contract at a relatively big European club and we need to hit the ground running next season. I’m not convinced the club will be taking project players on when it will cost them considerable money which he would.

Just how I’d see it.
It's a fair objection. I wonder if there's one spending pot or two sub-pots: one for now, one for the long-term business plan of finding/developing/selling players. The latter concept evidently exists or we wouldn't be collecting an 18-man B team this summer. Whether Amaechi could count as part of that "speculative" pot is an interesting thought.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:01 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:53 pm
there was much talk of him taking a pay cut to come here, and it's not exactly as if his parent club have had a brilliant return on their slice of his wages – assuming they're still paying him, and the cut wasn't "you borrow him, you pay him what %age you can and agree with him – we're paying nowt".

He enters the last season of his Hamburg contract, and you imagine that during its course, his bargaining position has weakened rather than strengthened.
It depends whether Hamburg are cutting their losses or see him as a potential player for them.

The former looks more likely and if that's the case then they need to shift him this summer on a permanent deal. Given how this loan has gone, they are unlikely to get much of a fee for him and their return is going to be based on clauses in the hope they at least get back what they paid for him. They may loan him out again, but if they do they really have written off their investment.

A club (even if not us) would be in a good position to say, "We'll take him off you and give you 'x' amount of whatever we make from him when we sell." Hamburg save wages, maybe get a small fee and have the hope to recoup some money.

If the player took a wage cut to come here he'd likely do the same to move, making it doable for all parties.

It's all educated guesswork, but it makes a transfer to an ELF club viable.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:29 pm

They'll know better than me if there's a speculation pot...and how much is in it. I doubt our ability to throw the thick end of 6 figures at it as a B teamer...

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by irie Cee Bee » Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:54 pm

Ameachi reminds me of young player who gets the ball and then does what he wants with it without any understanding of the expected end product. Teammates stop moving when he gets it because they are not sure what he is going to do with it.. Do they make a run forward expecting to get the pass or do they stay stationary to ty and recover the ball if the ball is lost because of Ameachi trying to do too much... and by the way, based on the position he plays, you are expecting him to cover you if you are playing RB instead of having both the winger and full back coming at you when they are attacking. I have seen plenty of that the short times he has played.

That's having talent but not "ball sense". Evatt said he has to learn to make players "trust" him. He has talent, but can ball sense awareness be "coached" into him? He is young, so if next season him staying does not cost us a squad space, then it may worth it. If not go. I remember Sam bringing in the talented Jermaine Johnson who destroyed Arsenal in his first game but afterwards failed because he just was not able to "understand" the game situations.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:14 pm

Didn't Jermaine Johnson go on to play over 250 games for Shef Wed. Was generally regarded as a very good pro who just didn't have the raw talented to play in the Prem, wasn't he?

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by Mar » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:32 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:14 pm
Didn't Jermaine Johnson go on to play over 250 games for Shef Wed. Was generally regarded as a very good pro who just didn't have the raw talented to play in the Prem, wasn't he?
IIRC, Jermaine Johnson seemed to have the talent to play in the premiership but not the mentality or wherewithal. There were similar concerns to Jonathan Walters in terms of a criminal element at the time, and given more recent gangland shootings that may have been true. I remember him causing Arsenal loads of problems when he played against them and seemed a genuine handful but I suspect that he didn't quite fit into what Big Sam was looking for. Missed opportunity perhaps.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by irie Cee Bee » Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:42 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:14 pm
Didn't Jermaine Johnson go on to play over 250 games for Shef Wed. Was generally regarded as a very good pro who just didn't have the raw talented to play in the Prem, wasn't he?
Yes and over 70 caps for Jamaica. Bibi Gardner was not as skillful nor was Bibi better rated than Jermaine in Jamaica, but he(Bibi) was much better in terms of reading the game, discipline, and did well in the Premiership. The point I am making is that for all of Amaechi's talent (which by the way is not in Jermaine's territory at the moment) it will not get him much further up the divisions until he improves his overall understanding of what he needs to do in game situations to help make his team better. I hope he is able to and if he does it with us, even better. I would however take a pass in the summer on him as he hasn't shown even the talent that we believe he has, but Evatt sees him everyday and will make the right call.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:35 am

Most players who failed to make the grade at Bolton in the Prem and went on to do okay in the Championship are going to be more talented than the lads we currently have in the squad. That's the reality of League One.

It is absolutely on Evatt and Markham to make those calls. They've got almost all of them right, so I'm not going to second guess them.

I liked Xav as a youngster and I think he's got ability, but ultimately we will probably be looking to recruit at a higher level this summer than we did last.

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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by boltonboris » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:03 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:01 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:53 pm
there was much talk of him taking a pay cut to come here, and it's not exactly as if his parent club have had a brilliant return on their slice of his wages – assuming they're still paying him, and the cut wasn't "you borrow him, you pay him what %age you can and agree with him – we're paying nowt".

He enters the last season of his Hamburg contract, and you imagine that during its course, his bargaining position has weakened rather than strengthened.
It depends whether Hamburg are cutting their losses or see him as a potential player for them.

The former looks more likely and if that's the case then they need to shift him this summer on a permanent deal. Given how this loan has gone, they are unlikely to get much of a fee for him and their return is going to be based on clauses in the hope they at least get back what they paid for him. They may loan him out again, but if they do they really have written off their investment.

A club (even if not us) would be in a good position to say, "We'll take him off you and give you 'x' amount of whatever we make from him when we sell." Hamburg save wages, maybe get a small fee and have the hope to recoup some money.

If the player took a wage cut to come here he'd likely do the same to move, making it doable for all parties.

It's all educated guesswork, but it makes a transfer to an ELF club viable.
The lad's on £10k per week in Hamburg. I'm pretty sure with his injury record this season, they would be willing to let him go out on loan again and check-in with him every now & then. The question is, will he be willing to take a significant paycut for the 2nd year in a row?

If he's available on loan again within our budget, I'd like to see us give it a whirl and see what he can offer us, but wouldn't be bothered if not
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Re: We won't be bricking it against Accrington...At home Monday 18th April 3-0'clock

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:29 pm

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:54 pm
Ameachi reminds me of young player who gets the ball and then does what he wants with it
Aye, De Bruyne does similar. Works all right for him... :wink:
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