The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

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nicholaldo
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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:36 am

Mar wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:11 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:48 am
Mar wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:02 pm
TonyDomingos wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:26 pm
I see Derby have been saved.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... g-takeover
Good news for them and for football in general I suppose.

Surprised to see them not carrying a points deduction into this season. Can't help shake the feeling that we were harshly treated by the league (not as harsh as Bury however). Still I wouldn't wish our treatment on Derby and our league at the time became some what of a mockery as a result of it.
I'm perhaps sailing against the wind here but I think a decent case could be made for arguing the opposite.
Interesting. They could've penalised us further granted but it seemed that the penalties that were imposed upon us far exceeded those that had caused the problem in the first place.

Restrictions on playing youth players, transfer embargoes for new owners and points deductions that crippled us for a number of seasons. That entire season under Keith Hill was doomed from the start through no fault of the new ownership.

Might be ignorance on my part regarding Derby's situation but I don't see them having a season under new ownership being crippled.

We were permitted to start the season despite being in administration, having not paid players' salaries, and being unable to guarantee funding was in place for us to continue operating until the completion of the season's fixtures. Thankfully, it worked out well in the end but we were fortunate, in my opinion, to be allowed to compete in such a dire sate and could reasonably have had no complaints if they had refused that permission.

With regard to Derby County not having to start a season under new ownership with a points deduction, I presume it's because all outstanding debts have been paid (or perhaps there is an agreement in place for them to be paid) in full. If and when that's the case, no points deduction is imposed.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Mar » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:36 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:36 am
Mar wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:11 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:48 am
Mar wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:02 pm
TonyDomingos wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:26 pm
I see Derby have been saved.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... g-takeover
Good news for them and for football in general I suppose.

Surprised to see them not carrying a points deduction into this season. Can't help shake the feeling that we were harshly treated by the league (not as harsh as Bury however). Still I wouldn't wish our treatment on Derby and our league at the time became some what of a mockery as a result of it.
I'm perhaps sailing against the wind here but I think a decent case could be made for arguing the opposite.
Interesting. They could've penalised us further granted but it seemed that the penalties that were imposed upon us far exceeded those that had caused the problem in the first place.

Restrictions on playing youth players, transfer embargoes for new owners and points deductions that crippled us for a number of seasons. That entire season under Keith Hill was doomed from the start through no fault of the new ownership.

Might be ignorance on my part regarding Derby's situation but I don't see them having a season under new ownership being crippled.

We were permitted to start the season despite being in administration, having not paid players' salaries, and being unable to guarantee funding was in place for us to continue operating until the completion of the season's fixtures. Thankfully, it worked out well in the end but we were fortunate, in my opinion, to be allowed to compete in such a dire sate and could reasonably have had no complaints if they had refused that permission.
I think the complaint over the fit and proper persons test would've been justification enough for seeing this as a problem of their own making. We had an owner who liked the club and tried to leave us with a good legacy to look back on. Despite not bankrolling the club in the manner he had done previously he was still keen on the clubs interests. The EFL allowed KA to take ownership having deemed him fit and proper. That mistake led to the poor ownership of the club and the sh*tshow that followed.

When a wolf is tearing up the hen house you shouldn't penalise the chickens when you're the one that let it in.

Whatever the reason for allowing KA to take ownership, be it accidental or ineptitude is irrelevant. These long term punishments don't seem to help the clubs get sold to better owners.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:56 am

Mar wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:36 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:36 am
Mar wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:11 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:48 am
Mar wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:02 pm
TonyDomingos wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:26 pm
I see Derby have been saved.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... g-takeover
Good news for them and for football in general I suppose.

Surprised to see them not carrying a points deduction into this season. Can't help shake the feeling that we were harshly treated by the league (not as harsh as Bury however). Still I wouldn't wish our treatment on Derby and our league at the time became some what of a mockery as a result of it.
I'm perhaps sailing against the wind here but I think a decent case could be made for arguing the opposite.
Interesting. They could've penalised us further granted but it seemed that the penalties that were imposed upon us far exceeded those that had caused the problem in the first place.

Restrictions on playing youth players, transfer embargoes for new owners and points deductions that crippled us for a number of seasons. That entire season under Keith Hill was doomed from the start through no fault of the new ownership.

Might be ignorance on my part regarding Derby's situation but I don't see them having a season under new ownership being crippled.

We were permitted to start the season despite being in administration, having not paid players' salaries, and being unable to guarantee funding was in place for us to continue operating until the completion of the season's fixtures. Thankfully, it worked out well in the end but we were fortunate, in my opinion, to be allowed to compete in such a dire sate and could reasonably have had no complaints if they had refused that permission.
I think the complaint over the fit and proper persons test would've been justification enough for seeing this as a problem of their own making. We had an owner who liked the club and tried to leave us with a good legacy to look back on. Despite not bankrolling the club in the manner he had done previously he was still keen on the clubs interests. The EFL allowed KA to take ownership having deemed him fit and proper. That mistake led to the poor ownership of the club and the sh*tshow that followed.

When a wolf is tearing up the hen house you shouldn't penalise the chickens when you're the one that let it in.

Whatever the reason for allowing KA to take ownership, be it accidental or ineptitude is irrelevant. These long term punishments don't seem to help the clubs get sold to better owners.

The problem is there was no mistake. For a person to fail the owners' and directors' test they have to meet one of the disqualifying conditions and Anderson didn't. If they were to fail him in those circumstances they leave themselves open to being sued.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:37 am

Staggeringly, he would probably still pass that test now if he were to buy another club.
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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:38 am

Yes the poorly named fit and proper persons test is a checklist of requirements mainly around legality of funds and holding directorship positions. It is not and cannot be a test of ‘is this a good responsible owner’. That’s not the EFL’s role and nor should it be.

It also airbrushes history. The club was on the verge of administration till Ken rocked up. It was going to the wall. It’s not like Eddie was waiting round for the right owner. He was selling it to whoever wanted it.

If we are to take issue with the EFL it would be over Bassini and their appalling and disgraceful handling of that. Approval via text messages cos he’d wined and dined someone in the organisation was a low point. And led to a delay on our actual takeover.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:08 am

And still Bassini kicks tyres. Hanging around Birmingham now. I see they’ve sacked Bowyer halfway through preseason.

While we wonder whether we’ll finish top two, top six or (eek) only top ten, it’s not long since we wondered if we’d finish for good.

Wrong thread I know, but worth remembering and savouring that our problem now is only having five centre-backs.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:25 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:38 am
Yes the poorly named fit and proper persons test is a checklist of requirements mainly around legality of funds and holding directorship positions. It is not and cannot be a test of ‘is this a good responsible owner’. That’s not the EFL’s role and nor should it be.

It also airbrushes history. The club was on the verge of administration till Ken rocked up. It was going to the wall. It’s not like Eddie was waiting round for the right owner. He was selling it to whoever wanted it.

If we are to take issue with the EFL it would be over Bassini and their appalling and disgraceful handling of that. Approval via text messages cos he’d wined and dined someone in the organisation was a low point. And led to a delay on our actual takeover.
I agree it isn't what the test is but very much disagree that it shouldn't be.

Football clubs are far more than just businesses and that the authorities broadly take a free market approach to letting chancers take over and imperil their futures is an abdication of responsibility.

KA had been struck off for VAT fraud ffs!
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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:38 am

Agree it should be much more stringent. Financial crime should be automatic DQ, with an appeals process for rare cases.
Also, they should have a process that charges poor owners and stops them from doing it again. As far as I know they haven't. Hence the continued Bassini circus.
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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:22 am

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:25 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:38 am
Yes the poorly named fit and proper persons test is a checklist of requirements mainly around legality of funds and holding directorship positions. It is not and cannot be a test of ‘is this a good responsible owner’. That’s not the EFL’s role and nor should it be.

It also airbrushes history. The club was on the verge of administration till Ken rocked up. It was going to the wall. It’s not like Eddie was waiting round for the right owner. He was selling it to whoever wanted it.

If we are to take issue with the EFL it would be over Bassini and their appalling and disgraceful handling of that. Approval via text messages cos he’d wined and dined someone in the organisation was a low point. And led to a delay on our actual takeover.
I agree it isn't what the test is but very much disagree that it shouldn't be.

Football clubs are far more than just businesses and that the authorities broadly take a free market approach to letting chancers take over and imperil their futures is an abdication of responsibility.

KA had been struck off for VAT fraud ffs!
I agree. I guess this is a situation where online posting doesn’t really help. The EFL absolutely should have rules that would stop the likes of Ken and Laurence from owning their member clubs. Absolutely. And it’s hardly difficult in those cases.

But they still can only realistically be a legal screen. Tighter definitions absolutely. But you will have people who’ve never done anything wrong or got any history who will be bad owners. The EFL are and always will be limited.

The other problem they have is. In our case had they said ‘no’ club was potentially going to go pop. As bury did. Are they in an easy position if they took on say a more subjective role in assessment of suitability? No they are in a very rock and hard place position there.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:40 pm

I care more for Oldham than I do for Derby, to be honest. Talk of Joe Royle's son leading a T/O bid. I hope it's true.
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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:12 pm

Be nice to see some signs of a couple more decent players coming through the door. Still short for me if we really have promotion ambitions.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:41 pm

22 days to KO. Tick-tock.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:05 am

18 and counting. Altogether now "we've got the best B team, in the land, we've got the best B team, in the land...."

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by TonyDomingos » Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:17 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:05 am
18 and counting. Altogether now "we've got the best B team, in the land, we've got the best B team, in the land...."

:D

I can see the "Evatt Out" thread being restarted before the month is over.
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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:45 pm

The great news is, we certainly got all our business done early....

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:32 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 6:14 am
We've had a hugely positive end to the season. Great form, improved a bit at the back, scoring goals and looking like a team. It would be easy to get carried away and think promotion next season is a shoo-in; but when planning for a new season a healthy does of scepticism is useful.

We came into 21/22 as optimists - because we couldn't afford the squad depth and quality that pessimism would have demanded. Versatility would make do where depth was lacking and style of play would overcome lack of tools/ability in key areas. Other teams wouldn't be able to handle our patterns and invention, we believed, meaning we'd be better than the sum of our parts. The winter should have taught us not to go into 22/23 with the same sunny attitude.

The reality is that we are still (even after January) behind the promoted clubs and others above us when you go player-for-player through squads. They have more bodies of the required level and the top performing players this season play for our rivals, not for us. Most clubs above us will be able to out-spend us in the summer. This season the three relegated Championship clubs have all finished in the top 6 and we have to expect the clubs coming down from the division above to be very competitive. Barnsley and Peterborough are old hands at escaping this division, whilst Derby are a huge with a famous manager. That puts us a step behind several clubs as things stand.

Were we to stagnate over the summer we'd have to assume that we'd go into the season middle-of-the-road in terms of squad depth and quality. Good players, certainly, but not enough of them and not the very best the league has to offer. That is before we factor in whether we can rely on some of our most important players, who have had serious injury issues this season.

The Fleetwood game showed us that a lower team can go toe-to-toe with us and arguably be unlucky to score only two goals. The teams coming up from League Two are better than those going down (better coached and better financed) and we have to assume that there will be fewer whipping boys next season letting us get away with mistakes that should have cost us.

We can't afford to be as good as we've been since mid-January...we absolutely must be better if we want to go up automatically. Better at the back, better going forward - better on and off the ball. We are a good League One side, but if we want to achieve Evatt's aim of "Premier League in five years" then this summer needs to be another leap forward. It doesn't need a revolution of the squad. We have plenty of good League One players. What we now need are players too good for this division who can carry us out of it - and enough of them to cover for the inevitable injuries and loss of form that any season brings.

Feel free to stick your own pessimism in this thread....or to tell me where to stick mine.
With a week to go, we're relying largely on coaching having made us better at the back, better going forwards and better on and off the ball. I agree with the supercomputer. 8th.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:52 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:32 pm
With a week to go, we're relying largely on coaching having made us better at the back, better going forwards and better on and off the ball. I agree with the supercomputer. 8th.
Out of interest, as you were good at working this out, what was our position in the January-May league table, once we'd got over subsisting on a midfield trio of Johnston, Thomason and Delf?

Hmm - to fit in with the thread - we still can't keep a clean sheet

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:02 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:52 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:32 pm
With a week to go, we're relying largely on coaching having made us better at the back, better going forwards and better on and off the ball. I agree with the supercomputer. 8th.
Out of interest, as you were good at working this out, what was our position in the January-May league table, once we'd got over subsisting on a midfield trio of Johnston, Thomason and Delf?

Hmm - to fit in with the thread - we still can't keep a clean sheet
2nd :-) behind MKD.

But if I take some of the points that Ghosty put in front of us to open the thread - The teams coming down are all top 6, the teams coming up will all be better than the ones which went down, and the teams in the middle will all strengthen, then it does feel like we've not had a great window so far. I guess I'm still on the "it's work to do" page, because most years, we're going to lose a few - to the extent that I recall Evatt said "it's something we need to look at"....

We have a notion that Bradley is the new Fossey (but maybe not quite as good?) he get's injured and we're sorta back to "makeshift" in a three....

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:15 pm

What worries me most from last spring is that we still didn't beat many teams in the top eight. And whether we fought back to draw or not, that was usually about conceding off set-pieces. From memory, only MK Dons played through us: the others all profited from set-plays.

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Re: The Pessimist's Guide to 22/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:19 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:15 pm
What worries me most from last spring is that we still didn't beat many teams in the top eight. And whether we fought back to draw or not, that was usually about conceding off set-pieces. From memory, only MK Dons played through us: the others all profited from set-plays.
If we’ve just had a summer and not fixed our defensive and offensive obvious set piece issues then that for me would be a huge red flag over Evatt and his basic competency. He’s surely going to have dealt with that. I think he’s bright enough to have done.

My worry is more that I don’t think we are better than the team that ended the campaign who showed good form but certainly weren’t as dynamic as the one that crushed Sunderland a few months before. Some of that is Fossey. But not all. We lack some pace and dynamism throughout as others have noted.

I fear we might just be a bit one paced and predictable with the main change throwing the big boys up top.

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