Pre-season 2022/23

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:28 pm

B team is bollocks. I can’t get away from it. It’s going to be scrapped within 18 months because it’s a terrible idea.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:17 pm

Mar wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:23 pm
Bolton B team lose to Bamber Bridge 1-0 with a late goal conceded. Sounds like a copy of their last match, quite a few positives but not yet an end product.

If they're trying to replicate the first team's style and play which would make a lot of sense then I suspect they'll be in for a slow start and slowly working towards something effective.

Early days.
Sounds like there’s one or two starting to impress. The right wingback Sackey, signed from Reading. Conor Carty, the ex-Wolves right-footer coming off the left. Intrigued to see how it pans out.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by sonicthewhite » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:16 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:17 pm
Mar wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:23 pm
Bolton B team lose to Bamber Bridge 1-0 with a late goal conceded. Sounds like a copy of their last match, quite a few positives but not yet an end product.

If they're trying to replicate the first team's style and play which would make a lot of sense then I suspect they'll be in for a slow start and slowly working towards something effective.

Early days.
Sounds like there’s one or two starting to impress. The right wingback Sackey, signed from Reading. Conor Carty, the ex-Wolves right-footer coming off the left. Intrigued to see how it pans out.
Doesn't matter if they impress or not mate as it's all bollocks according to Insano 😉
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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by The_Gun » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:50 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:28 pm
B team is bollocks. I can’t get away from it. It’s going to be scrapped within 18 months because it’s a terrible idea.
No wait and see for you then, eh? For me if we can produce one player of first team quality per season then it's working and will probably pay for itself.

Difficult/impossible to judge the success so far based on having read match reports on their first two games, but it sounds as though maybe we've got a couple of good ones in there. Perhaps we'll get some glimpses of them in our pizza or energy drink cup games next month.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Gary the Enfield » Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:58 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:31 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:14 pm
Classic Evatt, he’s irked Jacqui Oatley I see. I have no doubt club doctor etc are involved any decision, like Boris said he says things we want to hear.
Clarkson and Keys are also tweeting about how the weather isn't that bad, in my day, this country, etc. Not the company I'd wish to keep. And not the sort of look that many big clubs would want. (Some Twitterers are already rehashing the "man up" thing.) But that's fine, as I don't want him to go to another club.

Was reminded yesterday while researching a weather piece that in the 2003 heatwave, 14,000 people died in France alone of heat-related conditions. Manual outdoor workers particularly at risk of extertional stress. As you say, the doctor will presumably step in. If Evatt wants to punish them, he can bring them inside and download more content.
I was in France that summer. Unbearably hot. Lots of old people were recorded as having died. Horrible. I haven't checked but I also seem to remember that summer being notable as the Summer Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman disappeared and the debut (for Manchester United) of a certain C. Ronaldo. Who tore the sh*t out of us.

*Wells and Chapman was 2002. We were in France then, too.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:42 am

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:50 am
Difficult/impossible to judge the success so far based on having read match reports on their first two games, but it sounds as though maybe we've got a couple of good ones in there. Perhaps we'll get some glimpses of them in our pizza or energy drink cup games next month.
Aye, that would be an obvious and sensible pathway for their promotion and development. But we do also have five subs per game now, so one or two could start to pop up on the bench in league games, for the matchday experience, and maybe get some minutes if the situation allows. None of them are old enough to require a squad registration.

Salford (H, League Cup) is the midweek between Wycombe (H) and Port Vale (A).
Should we get through that, the second round is between Sheff Wed (H) and Plymouth (A).
Crewe (H, first Pizza group game) is the following midweek - between Plymouth (A) and Charlton (H).
Tranmere (A, second Pizza group game) is between Posh (H) and Pompey (A).
Leeds U21 (H, final Pizza group game) is between Barnsley (H) and Accy (A).

So the cup games come between some potentially tricky league tasks, and Evatt might shuffle his deck with that in mind.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:53 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:42 am
The_Gun wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:50 am
Difficult/impossible to judge the success so far based on having read match reports on their first two games, but it sounds as though maybe we've got a couple of good ones in there. Perhaps we'll get some glimpses of them in our pizza or energy drink cup games next month.
Aye, that would be an obvious and sensible pathway for their promotion and development. But we do also have five subs per game now, so one or two could start to pop up on the bench in league games, for the matchday experience, and maybe get some minutes if the situation allows. None of them are old enough to require a squad registration.

Salford (H, League Cup) is the midweek between Wycombe (H) and Port Vale (A).
Should we get through that, the second round is between Sheff Wed (H) and Plymouth (A).
Crewe (H, first Pizza group game) is the following midweek - between Plymouth (A) and Charlton (H).
Tranmere (A, second Pizza group game) is between Posh (H) and Pompey (A).
Leeds U21 (H, final Pizza group game) is between Barnsley (H) and Accy (A).

So the cup games come between some potentially tricky league tasks, and Evatt might shuffle his deck with that in mind.
And nine spots, so easier to chuck a couple on there in case there's a chance to give them minutes.

Hopefully we'll always have a sub keeper now as well!
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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:16 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:50 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:28 pm
B team is bollocks. I can’t get away from it. It’s going to be scrapped within 18 months because it’s a terrible idea.
No wait and see for you then, eh? For me if we can produce one player of first team quality per season then it's working and will probably pay for itself.

Difficult/impossible to judge the success so far based on having read match reports on their first two games, but it sounds as though maybe we've got a couple of good ones in there. Perhaps we'll get some glimpses of them in our pizza or energy drink cup games next month.
My opposition to it is nobody has as yet articulated why a B team is the vehicle to produce players anymore than an U23’s where we’d have the same players a mix of our academy produce and signings out of other academies and youth teams.

The model has never made sense to me from day one. It’s also a question of resources. If your ‘B team’ is literally just a funnel then that’s one thing, but I think it’s being used more as a sieve. And in that case we will see how many of these players can genuinely step up in a reasonable time frame. I also maintain the opinion that Ronan Darcy was a better prospect than many of these we’ve signed, spent money on the bring here to play B team games. It’s one thing being Man City and having a philosophy through the club and bringing players through it’s quite another in league one. Darcy has signed for a league club for their first team and I question how many of the ones we’ve brought in could have done that….and that might be an opinion and I’m happy to concede Evatt doesn’t share it but I still think it makes the model look confused.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm

Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:05 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm
Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.
That’s fine but it sort of says the B team might not be the model if someone like Darcy doesn’t want to stick around.

My major objection to it is some of the ones we’ve picked up to fill it. The cost to benefit and thirdly the fact that it creates an odd division between players. U23 is about progress. B team feels the opposite to me.

I’d be interested to know average age of our team yesterday.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by The_Gun » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:08 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:05 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm
Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.
That’s fine but it sort of says the B team might not be the model if someone like Darcy doesn’t want to stick around.

My major objection to it is some of the ones we’ve picked up to fill it. The cost to benefit and thirdly the fact that it creates an odd division between players. U23 is about progress. B team feels the opposite to me.

I’d be interested to know average age of our team yesterday.
Bar Tutte and Baka they were all 20 or younger.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:58 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:05 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm
Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.
That’s fine but it sort of says the B team might not be the model if someone like Darcy doesn’t want to stick around.

My major objection to it is some of the ones we’ve picked up to fill it. The cost to benefit and thirdly the fact that it creates an odd division between players. U23 is about progress. B team feels the opposite to me.

I’d be interested to know average age of our team yesterday.
Or does it say Darcy wanted first-team, men's football? Do you think he would have been happy in our U23s?

As of this season Darcy is an overage player; whether he was playing for a B team or a U23 team he'd still be effectively in a remedial class. Maybe he'd still think he could be in our 1st team if we were still in the Fourth, but we're not, so (sadly in some ways) his time has gone. He's the last of the lost generation killed off by Ken, but his leaving this summer is really nothing to do with Bs v U23s.

The main criticism of U23s as the 'apex' of academy football is that the players who haven't been promoted into men's football by that age are cosseted, with a lack of real experience being kicked by hairy-arsed blokes. The idea of the Bs (besides avoiding written-in academy costs, as Pru notes) is to give them a variety of experiences - against reserves, U23s, non-leaguers - to make them more rounded players. I don't see much wrong with that. And while you're entitled to your opinion and prediction, it feels more than a little like contempt prior to investigation. Give it a chance, mate.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:22 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:05 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm
Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.
That’s fine but it sort of says the B team might not be the model if someone like Darcy doesn’t want to stick around.

My major objection to it is some of the ones we’ve picked up to fill it. The cost to benefit and thirdly the fact that it creates an odd division between players. U23 is about progress. B team feels the opposite to me.

I’d be interested to know average age of our team yesterday.
Or does it say Darcy wanted first-team, men's football? Do you think he would have been happy in our U23s?

As of this season Darcy is an overage player; whether he was playing for a B team or a U23 team he'd still be effectively in a remedial class. Maybe he'd still think he could be in our 1st team if we were still in the Fourth, but we're not, so (sadly in some ways) his time has gone. He's the last of the lost generation killed off by Ken, but his leaving this summer is really nothing to do with Bs v U23s.

The main criticism of U23s as the 'apex' of academy football is that the players who haven't been promoted into men's football by that age are cosseted, with a lack of real experience being kicked by hairy-arsed blokes. The idea of the Bs (besides avoiding written-in academy costs, as Pru notes) is to give them a variety of experiences - against reserves, U23s, non-leaguers - to make them more rounded players. I don't see much wrong with that. And while you're entitled to your opinion and prediction, it feels more than a little like contempt prior to investigation. Give it a chance, mate.
I will give it a chance. I still find it hard to fathom what this adds though. A b team wont offer better exposure to proper football, one might argue it is worse since you will need to field one so loaning out for real football (as per Darcy) becomes more problematic.

Real experience is surely better served with u23s moving into the loan system, or direct to the first team and worrying far less about having to fill out numbers…

But whatever. I’m just far from convinced. We will see.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:28 pm

Whether we go Bs or U23s there is a huge hole from half a decade's under-funding. If we had U23s playing in a league, we'd face the same understaffing problem.

So the "not enough players" problem - which I acknowledge is a problem - is not to do with the Bs. We haven't got many players above the U18s because we haven't had the money to give them a team to play in - whether it's called a B team, a U23 team or Fred Karno's All-Stars...

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:13 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:28 pm
Whether we go Bs or U23s there is a huge hole from half a decade's under-funding. If we had U23s playing in a league, we'd face the same understaffing problem.

So the "not enough players" problem - which I acknowledge is a problem - is not to do with the Bs. We haven't got many players above the U18s because we haven't had the money to give them a team to play in - whether it's called a B team, a U23 team or Fred Karno's All-Stars...

Blimey, D.S.B. , just exactly how old are you? I thought I was the dinosaur. :lol:
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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:34 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:22 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:05 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm
Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.
That’s fine but it sort of says the B team might not be the model if someone like Darcy doesn’t want to stick around.

My major objection to it is some of the ones we’ve picked up to fill it. The cost to benefit and thirdly the fact that it creates an odd division between players. U23 is about progress. B team feels the opposite to me.

I’d be interested to know average age of our team yesterday.
Or does it say Darcy wanted first-team, men's football? Do you think he would have been happy in our U23s?

As of this season Darcy is an overage player; whether he was playing for a B team or a U23 team he'd still be effectively in a remedial class. Maybe he'd still think he could be in our 1st team if we were still in the Fourth, but we're not, so (sadly in some ways) his time has gone. He's the last of the lost generation killed off by Ken, but his leaving this summer is really nothing to do with Bs v U23s.

The main criticism of U23s as the 'apex' of academy football is that the players who haven't been promoted into men's football by that age are cosseted, with a lack of real experience being kicked by hairy-arsed blokes. The idea of the Bs (besides avoiding written-in academy costs, as Pru notes) is to give them a variety of experiences - against reserves, U23s, non-leaguers - to make them more rounded players. I don't see much wrong with that. And while you're entitled to your opinion and prediction, it feels more than a little like contempt prior to investigation. Give it a chance, mate.
I will give it a chance. I still find it hard to fathom what this adds though. A b team wont offer better exposure to proper football, one might argue it is worse since you will need to field one so loaning out for real football (as per Darcy) becomes more problematic.

Real experience is surely better served with u23s moving into the loan system, or direct to the first team and worrying far less about having to fill out numbers…

But whatever. I’m just far from convinced. We will see.
I don't get this. U23s are in a league, you have to play the games. This is surely better for that?! You arrange as and when and can play the first team fringes too.
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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:36 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:13 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:28 pm
Whether we go Bs or U23s there is a huge hole from half a decade's under-funding. If we had U23s playing in a league, we'd face the same understaffing problem.

So the "not enough players" problem - which I acknowledge is a problem - is not to do with the Bs. We haven't got many players above the U18s because we haven't had the money to give them a team to play in - whether it's called a B team, a U23 team or Fred Karno's All-Stars...

Blimey, D.S.B. , just exactly how old are you? I thought I was the dinosaur. :lol:
I said that in my mum’s voice :mrgreen:

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:12 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:34 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:22 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:05 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:25 pm
Darcy, who wouldn't get in our first team, was offered the chance to stay in the Bs, but opted to join a fourth-tier club. It's a shame he's fallen through the cracks but I don't see how having a U23 team (now) would have helped in that situation.

Sometimes it doesn't work, whether you're operating a B or a U23 or whether you're Bolton, Bamber Bridge or Barcelona. The club reckon this is a better bet. I'm happy to give it a chance.
That’s fine but it sort of says the B team might not be the model if someone like Darcy doesn’t want to stick around.

My major objection to it is some of the ones we’ve picked up to fill it. The cost to benefit and thirdly the fact that it creates an odd division between players. U23 is about progress. B team feels the opposite to me.

I’d be interested to know average age of our team yesterday.
Or does it say Darcy wanted first-team, men's football? Do you think he would have been happy in our U23s?

As of this season Darcy is an overage player; whether he was playing for a B team or a U23 team he'd still be effectively in a remedial class. Maybe he'd still think he could be in our 1st team if we were still in the Fourth, but we're not, so (sadly in some ways) his time has gone. He's the last of the lost generation killed off by Ken, but his leaving this summer is really nothing to do with Bs v U23s.

The main criticism of U23s as the 'apex' of academy football is that the players who haven't been promoted into men's football by that age are cosseted, with a lack of real experience being kicked by hairy-arsed blokes. The idea of the Bs (besides avoiding written-in academy costs, as Pru notes) is to give them a variety of experiences - against reserves, U23s, non-leaguers - to make them more rounded players. I don't see much wrong with that. And while you're entitled to your opinion and prediction, it feels more than a little like contempt prior to investigation. Give it a chance, mate.
I will give it a chance. I still find it hard to fathom what this adds though. A b team wont offer better exposure to proper football, one might argue it is worse since you will need to field one so loaning out for real football (as per Darcy) becomes more problematic.

Real experience is surely better served with u23s moving into the loan system, or direct to the first team and worrying far less about having to fill out numbers…

But whatever. I’m just far from convinced. We will see.
I don't get this. U23s are in a league, you have to play the games. This is surely better for that?! You arrange as and when and can play the first team fringes too.
Your u23s play in a league and you can fill it with your teens. Whereas we have recruited a full b team of weird misfits to play ad hoc arranged games against god knows who.

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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:55 pm

When do you think they'll arrange them, and who do you think will play if we're short? I can see some downsides to this but I cannot begin to see how it's less flexible than a U23s.
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Re: Pre-season 2022/23

Post by Spartan2 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:05 am

Stumbled across highlights of the Carlisle match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fezP3D8ebZ8

Grim.

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