B Team Thread 22/23 Season

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Striker Gez Sithole joins fifth-tier Alty on loan, for an initial month.
https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/sithole-secures-loan-move

Genuine question. Sithole is (if google is correct) 20. He's played 16 games in league one for Gillingham.

He's been at Bolton now for 15 months presumably learning our ways.

He's now on loan for a month to a non league side.....

At what point do we consider a 20 year old with league experience ready for a chance here? And if at this point he isn't ready and is moving down the leagues - what likely end point is there?

Genuine question and fair.

Clearly at one point Gills thought he was tier-3 ready, or were desperate enough to try.
And then in summer 2022 we thought him worth a try.
Now, we think he's worth sending to tier 5 - a tier or two above where we normally send our "kids", in honesty - to check his progression.

Sometimes this happens with a view to checking how near he is to being first-team ready. In other cases, it's also a bit to see where they might end up. See Adam Senior, for example.

All 'young' players develop at different rates, and not always in a linear-improvement fashion. (Ask Luke Matheson.)

I'd rather they go out to check their levels. Then come back to a the next level up. then see how they go.

Mind you, George Thomason's last loan was to Bamber Bridge. So there's that.

[Mar]

Perhaps we're sending him on loan in order for him to get some game time and a tougher test. I can't imagine the b team is as competitive as tier 5.

Does seem a negative career direction but it may just be a case of helping them out while being able to train with our b team like we had with backup goalies previously.

[BWFC_Insane]

Striker Gez Sithole joins fifth-tier Alty on loan, for an initial month.
https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/sithole-secures-loan-move

Genuine question. Sithole is (if google is correct) 20. He's played 16 games in league one for Gillingham.

He's been at Bolton now for 15 months presumably learning our ways.

He's now on loan for a month to a non league side.....

At what point do we consider a 20 year old with league experience ready for a chance here? And if at this point he isn't ready and is moving down the leagues - what likely end point is there?

Genuine question and fair.

Clearly at one point Gills thought he was tier-3 ready, or were desperate enough to try.
And then in summer 2022 we thought him worth a try.
Now, we think he's worth sending to tier 5 - a tier or two above where we normally send our "kids", in honesty - to check his progression.

Sometimes this happens with a view to checking how near he is to being first-team ready. In other cases, it's also a bit to see where they might end up. See Adam Senior, for example.

All 'young' players develop at different rates, and not always in a linear-improvement fashion. (Ask Luke Matheson.)

I'd rather they go out to check their levels. Then come back to a the next level up. then see how they go.

Mind you, George Thomason's last loan was to Bamber Bridge. So there's that.

Its a really interesting discussion because I'd almost discount Matheson because he played a lot - ended up in the premiership and it didn't work out. But that to me isn't unusual.

The development profiles of the B team to me is always too late. They need to be much younger. I get the argument that different players develop differently and I think there should always be a place for a Matheson or similar or even the odd older player who has lost their way but could be rehabilitated maybe. I just worry we're in that place where its hard to imagine someone at 20 who has already played league football suddenly becoming great - especially without actually playing league football.

Maybe I'm wrong. I just find it a very confusing way to go about it.

[boltonboris]

Out of interest (I can't be arsed looking) when as the last time we integrated a teenager into our first team?

Discounting loans from Premier League clubs etc

We're close to writing off 20 year olds as being too old. It's nonsense. Footballers play until 38+ now. Exceptional teenagers like Rooney etc raised the expectation of young players' ages when breaking through. He's still got time at 20

National League is a huge step up from B Team and is actually, probably a higher standard and better funded than League 2

[The_Gun]

It doesn't seem as though any of the players from our first B team intake will make it here. Khumbeni appears the one most highly thought of, but he turns 21 next month and has only had the briefest sniff of first team football so far.

I get that the model is to unearth diamonds in the rough, and the majority of players will not prove good enough, but if the sub-first team system is yielding no lads of a decent level then it's pretty pointless, and ultimately may mean we're exposed when injury crises hit.

I think it's fair to give the club more time to progress past this transitory phase, but from next season I'd like to see a bit more evidence of success. It would also be nice to hear more about the club's long term plan for building a sustainable, productive B/youth system, if that is indeed an objective.

[boltonboris]

Yep. It does seem like we've just had to go out and put an XI together just to get this thing started. I do expect improvements in the next 1-2 years, obviously.

[The_Gun]

Out of interest (I can't be arsed looking) when as the last time we integrated a teenager into our first team?

Discounting loans from Premier League clubs etc

We're close to writing off 20 year olds as being too old. It's nonsense. Footballers play until 38+ now. Exceptional teenagers like Rooney etc raised the expectation of young players' ages when breaking through. He's still got time at 20

National League is a huge step up from B Team and is actually, probably a higher standard and better funded than League 2

Luca Connell would be my guess, although he only played in 10 league games for us, so maybe that doesn't count.

[BWFC_Insane]

Out of interest (I can't be arsed looking) when as the last time we integrated a teenager into our first team?

Discounting loans from Premier League clubs etc

We're close to writing off 20 year olds as being too old. It's nonsense. Footballers play until 38+ now. Exceptional teenagers like Rooney etc raised the expectation of young players' ages when breaking through. He's still got time at 20

National League is a huge step up from B Team and is actually, probably a higher standard and better funded than League 2

I'm not writing a 20 year old off, but there is research that shows the likelihood of earning a pro contract is directly proportional to the age at which you began in an academy and the age at which you are now. In other words - the earlier you start and the younger you are the more likely you make it.

Other research has mapped peak performances on to age by position.

The average peak age for a forward in English football is 25.

Yes players go longer these days but the data shows that whilst they play longer the likelihood of them becoming an effective footballer is determined on average before they are 16. Indeed it would suggest the further you go into pools of players older than 16 released or without contracts, or simply not playing pro level yet the less likely they are to make it.

Whilst there are obviously going to be exceptions and outliers the issue I have is - that requires really specialist scouting knowledge and an extensive network to identify those players and once we're talking 19/20 year olds the odds drop really really low - so even more knowledge and specialisation is needed to find those gems.

[boltonboris]

The average age of a player making their first league appearance is 21.7 years old...

Also, a striker is now expected to be at their 'best' at 30 years old, for Speed, power and overall effectiveness - However, after 27, depending on the amount of games you've played and the stress you've put on your body, you're likely to start taking longer to recover from injuries

[BWFC_Insane]

The average age of a player making their first league appearance is 21.7 years old...

Also, a striker is now expected to be at their 'best' at 30 years old, for Speed, power and overall effectiveness - However, after 27, depending on the amount of games you've played and the stress you've put on your body, you're likely to start taking longer to recover from injuries

In the top flight....

[Worthy4England]

The average peak age for a forward in English football is 25

I'd find that quite stunning TBF...Where's this number come from?

[boltonboris]

The average age of a player making their first league appearance is 21.7 years old...

Also, a striker is now expected to be at their 'best' at 30 years old, for Speed, power and overall effectiveness - However, after 27, depending on the amount of games you've played and the stress you've put on your body, you're likely to start taking longer to recover from injuries

In the top flight....

What difference does it make? It's level based. The stats downwards would be similar surely

[The_Gun]

The average peak age for a forward in English football is 25

I'd find that quite stunning TBF...Where's this number come from?

The Athletic did a study last year, I think. I will try to dig it out, but maybe that's what Insano is referring to.

[BWFC_Insane]

The average age of a player making their first league appearance is 21.7 years old...

Also, a striker is now expected to be at their 'best' at 30 years old, for Speed, power and overall effectiveness - However, after 27, depending on the amount of games you've played and the stress you've put on your body, you're likely to start taking longer to recover from injuries

In the top flight....

What difference does it make? It's level based. The stats downwards would be similar surely

They would be lower - since players tend to start earlier down the leagues out of necessity and of course the fact that those premiership clubs are loaning those younger lads out down the leagues....

[BWFC_Insane]

The average peak age for a forward in English football is 25

I'd find that quite stunning TBF...Where's this number come from?

It was a piece of research I'll try and dig it out later.

[The_Gun]

The average peak age for a forward in English football is 25

I'd find that quite stunning TBF...Where's this number come from?

The Athletic did a study last year, I think. I will try to dig it out, but maybe that's what Insano is referring to.

It was actually from 2021, and Insano was slightly off with his numbers - they concluded that 27 was the average peak for a striker, and 26 for a wide forward.

https://theathletic.com/2935360/2021/11 ... ions-peak/

[Worthy4England]

Yeah 27, I can live with.

[BWFC_Insane]

The average peak age for a forward in English football is 25

I'd find that quite stunning TBF...Where's this number come from?

The Athletic did a study last year, I think. I will try to dig it out, but maybe that's what Insano is referring to.

It was actually from 2021, and Insano was slightly off with his numbers - they concluded that 27 was the average peak for a striker, and 26 for a wide forward.

https://theathletic.com/2935360/2021/11 ... ions-peak/

https://content.iospress.com/articles/j ... cs/jsa0021

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 20.1833625

[Worthy4England]

The pay walled one, I can't get to. The other two have a long way to go to convince me of the contention being made. The iospress one is using whoscored ratings...

[BWFC_Insane]

The pay walled one, I can't get to. The other two have a long way to go to convince me of the contention being made. The iospress one is using whoscored ratings...

What is wrong with whoscored?