Another fine mess Stanley...V Accrington away Sat 18th Oct 2022...3,0 clock.

[Bruce Rioja]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

It was obvious two years ago too, but it took him until Christmas and for us to be staring at non-league football before the mule of a man changed it.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

I've said many times, Evatt's rigidity drives me bloody mad. That he changed things today mid-game, and the effect his affect had on the game, might 'hopefully' see him be a little less inflexible going forward. Hopefully.

[Mar]

The rigidity is fine as long as its having a positive effect on most games. Trouble weve had lately is teams setting up against us knowing how we play.

Thankfully he turned it around today and the players fight was evident with Dapo magic getting us through.

[LeverEnd]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

It was obvious two years ago too, but it took him until Christmas and for us to be staring at non-league football before the mule of a man changed it.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

I've said many times, Evatt's rigidity drives me bloody mad. That he changed things today mid-game, and the effect his affect had on the game, might 'hopefully' see him be a little less inflexible going forward. Hopefully.

He seems to be giving it a bit of the 'told you sos' to the fans afterwards as well. He really is a difficult man to like, but if he keeps winning I'm not bothered.

[nicholaldo]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

There will obviously be a time and a place for it but as I posted before kick-off today, we began in a formation that relies very heavily on the wing-backs to get up and down in wide positions yet we had no wing-backs in the starting eleven.

It's no good trying to shoehorn in midfielders to do a job in what is such a pivotal position when our bonafide wing-backs are unavailable or out of favour.

[Prufrock]

I really don’t get this tactical inflexibility.

Play Iredale, Johnston, Santos, Jones and that’s surely a defensively sound enough back line. Then you’ve got plenty of options for the midfield and front threes.

i dunno. For a start he may play a four today. Also, playing Izzy and Dapo at WB is hardly being a stick in the mud.

He’s switched formations more than most managers we’ve had. And there are elements of pattern-play which suit us more in a back three than a four. There’s a fascinating article in The Athletic with Sol Campbell, Matthew Upson and Danny Higginbotham (plus a coach) comparing playing in the two systems and I have to say the back three sounds like it suits us more.

https://theathletic.com/3679252/2022/10 ... ed_article

Is that the one you sent me? I haven't read it yet (hey, it's the internet) but it strikes me as defenders being f*cking lazy. Oh all the defenders wanted more cover did they?

I'm pretty convinced at the top of the game 4 beats 5. Good teams play 5 but the best play 4. Could be the best shape down here. But for me get Dapo and Sads in their best positions. Dapo especially. He's a better left winger than any of our forwards are forwards.

[Worthy4England]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

It was obvious two years ago too, but it took him until Christmas and for us to be staring at non-league football before the mule of a man changed it.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

I've said many times, Evatt's rigidity drives me bloody mad. That he changed things today mid-game, and the effect his affect had on the game, might 'hopefully' see him be a little less inflexible going forward. Hopefully.

Yeah. Been watching Chelsea v United on telly. Potter knows he's not got the right system, so makes a sub 35 mins in, to change it. Got to respond to what's in front of you...

[BWFC_Insane]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

There will obviously be a time and a place for it but as I posted before kick-off today, we began in a formation that relies very heavily on the wing-backs to get up and down in wide positions yet we had no wing-backs in the starting eleven.

It's no good trying to shoehorn in midfielders to do a job in what is such a pivotal position when our bonafide wing-backs are unavailable or out of favour.

We don’t have a genuine wing back in the squad. Maybe John but he’s not exactly ripping up trees.

Fossey made that system work last season and when he was injured we didn’t play close to as well and relied on strikers in form. But you can see from the stats he was key to the system in an attacking sense.

We have so many players screaming out for a 433/442 or some sort of hybrid system round that so I hope we just stick with 4 at the back.

[Mar]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

It was obvious two years ago too, but it took him until Christmas and for us to be staring at non-league football before the mule of a man changed it.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

I've said many times, Evatt's rigidity drives me bloody mad. That he changed things today mid-game, and the effect his affect had on the game, might 'hopefully' see him be a little less inflexible going forward. Hopefully.

Yeah. Been watching Chelsea v United on telly. Potter knows he's not got the right system, so makes a sub 35 mins in, to change it. Got to respond to what's in front of you...

I'm sure if Evatt was to get on the ball that much he'd be punching above our rank.

Thankfully he's getting it right most of the time and hopefully it'll come good to get us up the leagues.

Evatts not perfect, but he's a good manager and we're better than the sum of our parts.

Just hope he'd be quicker to change when it's not working.

[BWFC_Insane]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

It was obvious two years ago too, but it took him until Christmas and for us to be staring at non-league football before the mule of a man changed it.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

I've said many times, Evatt's rigidity drives me bloody mad. That he changed things today mid-game, and the effect his affect had on the game, might 'hopefully' see him be a little less inflexible going forward. Hopefully.

Yeah. Been watching Chelsea v United on telly. Potter knows he's not got the right system, so makes a sub 35 mins in, to change it. Got to respond to what's in front of you...

I'm sure if Evatt was to get on the ball that much he'd be punching above our rank.

Thankfully he's getting it right most of the time and hopefully it'll come good to get us up the leagues.

Evatts not perfect, but he's a good manager and we're better than the sum of our parts.

Just hope he'd be quicker to change when it's not working.

It’s been obvious for a while the system was failing us. You could see it for weeks. It’s worrying Evatt hasn’t seen it and changed it earlier. It does seem to be his weakness. We don’t really have the wing backs for a 352 week in week out. Sometimes when situation dictates use it. But otherwise the system is simply not getting the best out of our players and without real wing backs with the quality of Fossey in an attacking sense we don’t have that real cutting edge yet we have it in a 433 type system.

[Worthy4England]

Today shows as clearly as you ever could how the three five two isn’t working. It’s just obvious now.

It was obvious two years ago too, but it took him until Christmas and for us to be staring at non-league football before the mule of a man changed it.

To be fair, it has worked well for us when we've had suitable players, but I don't think we have right now.

I've said many times, Evatt's rigidity drives me bloody mad. That he changed things today mid-game, and the effect his affect had on the game, might 'hopefully' see him be a little less inflexible going forward. Hopefully.

Yeah. Been watching Chelsea v United on telly. Potter knows he's not got the right system, so makes a sub 35 mins in, to change it. Got to respond to what's in front of you...

I'm sure if Evatt was to get on the ball that much he'd be punching above our rank.

Thankfully he's getting it right most of the time and hopefully it'll come good to get us up the leagues.

Evatts not perfect, but he's a good manager and we're better than the sum of our parts.

Just hope he'd be quicker to change when it's not working.

Yeah mate. It just feels sometimes like he "over trusts" the system and under trusts his eyes...

But I'm a pretty happy Wanderer with where we are in the League, currently

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I really don’t get this tactical inflexibility.

Play Iredale, Johnston, Santos, Jones and that’s surely a defensively sound enough back line. Then you’ve got plenty of options for the midfield and front threes.

i dunno. For a start he may play a four today. Also, playing Izzy and Dapo at WB is hardly being a stick in the mud.

He’s switched formations more than most managers we’ve had. And there are elements of pattern-play which suit us more in a back three than a four. There’s a fascinating article in The Athletic with Sol Campbell, Matthew Upson and Danny Higginbotham (plus a coach) comparing playing in the two systems and I have to say the back three sounds like it suits us more.

https://theathletic.com/3679252/2022/10 ... ed_article

Is that the one you sent me? I haven't read it yet (hey, it's the internet) but it strikes me as defenders being f*cking lazy. Oh all the defenders wanted more cover did they?

I'm pretty convinced at the top of the game 4 beats 5. Good teams play 5 but the best play 4. Could be the best shape down here. But for me get Dapo and Sads in their best positions. Dapo especially. He's a better left winger than any of our forwards are forwards.

Interesting you read it like that. I read it as the more expansive, ball-playing defenders preferring the back three. And we have a lot more of those than the other kind.

What we don't have is fully rounded wing-backs. And that is a problem. We went today with two very attacking wingbacks but it wasn't those who put us 2-0 down; the first goal was a combination of MJ and Santos losing a battle, Gethin being out of position and Johnston being unable to cover two positions – no wingback on our books past and present could have made up for that. The second goal was just rank bad defending from a set piece - something we've had in any formation you choose - but in this instance particularly Lee.

That said, the triple sub and formation switch certainly changed the game. I said after Barnsley that we might need to go back-four and (your favourite!) high width in games against low blocks or on tight pitches; it worked very well and I'm very glad it did, because losing to Accy yetabastardgain might have turned this autumn into a proper slog.

I'm still to be convinced that a back four is a panacea. The only time it's worked consistently for us is when we had Baptiste playing like Maldini alongside Santos who is, whatever hyperbolists may say, much better than a fourth-division centre-back. I'm not sure who plays alongside Santos in the middle - is Johnston strong enough to play there? How about against Burton in midweek? I'm not sure how you get Bradley and Gethin in the XI. Is that OK? The XI that finished today didn't have MJ in it. It didn't have Bodvarsson in it. It was a reaction that worked - is it sustainable?

But but but. It's really good to see us finding ways to win. And as I've said before I'd now like us to have that tactical flexibility and fluidity between and within games. Too often we've been scoutable and predictable. If the oppo don't know whether we'll be back three or four, it's a whole lot harder for them to set up.

[Mar]

Yeah mate. It just feels sometimes like he "over trusts" the system and under trusts his eyes...

But I'm a pretty happy Wanderer with where we are in the League, currently

I'd more than happily have him underreacting as opposed to overreacting, which seems to be the case. Trouble is, we've been slow to change (ala Southgate) and we've been seemingly found out. No doubt it'd be causing frustration with our players and making it easy for the opponents. Flip side of that is the players have to learn and leverage another system that maybe a work in progress, at least from a tactical approach.

Perhaps its a case of players struggling to fit into systems rather than systems being picked based upon personnel. Evatt's tactics have worked well but i'm sure that save for the likes of Bradley being on top form, we're likely to struggle. Maybe we'd be better suited for Bradley for one system, Dapo for the other and rotate to cause problems accordingly.

[BWFC_Insane]

I really don’t get this tactical inflexibility.

Play Iredale, Johnston, Santos, Jones and that’s surely a defensively sound enough back line. Then you’ve got plenty of options for the midfield and front threes.

i dunno. For a start he may play a four today. Also, playing Izzy and Dapo at WB is hardly being a stick in the mud.

He’s switched formations more than most managers we’ve had. And there are elements of pattern-play which suit us more in a back three than a four. There’s a fascinating article in The Athletic with Sol Campbell, Matthew Upson and Danny Higginbotham (plus a coach) comparing playing in the two systems and I have to say the back three sounds like it suits us more.

https://theathletic.com/3679252/2022/10 ... ed_article

Is that the one you sent me? I haven't read it yet (hey, it's the internet) but it strikes me as defenders being f*cking lazy. Oh all the defenders wanted more cover did they?

I'm pretty convinced at the top of the game 4 beats 5. Good teams play 5 but the best play 4. Could be the best shape down here. But for me get Dapo and Sads in their best positions. Dapo especially. He's a better left winger than any of our forwards are forwards.

Interesting you read it like that. I read it as the more expansive, ball-playing defenders preferring the back three. And we have a lot more of those than the other kind.

What we don't have is fully rounded wing-backs. And that is a problem. We went today with two very attacking wingbacks but it wasn't those who put us 2-0 down; the first goal was a combination of MJ and Santos losing a battle, Gethin being out of position and Johnston being unable to cover two positions – no wingback on our books past and present could have made up for that. The second goal was just rank bad defending from a set piece - something we've had in any formation you choose - but in this instance particularly Lee.

That said, the triple sub and formation switch certainly changed the game. I said after Barnsley that we might need to go back-four and (your favourite!) high width in games against low blocks or on tight pitches; it worked very well and I'm very glad it did, because losing to Accy yetabastardgain might have turned this autumn into a proper slog.

I'm still to be convinced that a back four is a panacea. The only time it's worked consistently for us is when we had Baptiste playing like Maldini alongside Santos who is, whatever hyperbolists may say, much better than a fourth-division centre-back. I'm not sure who plays alongside Santos in the middle - is Johnston strong enough to play there? How about against Burton in midweek? I'm not sure how you get Bradley and Gethin in the XI. Is that OK? The XI that finished today didn't have MJ in it. It didn't have Bodvarsson in it. It was a reaction that worked - is it sustainable?

But but but. It's really good to see us finding ways to win. And as I've said before I'd now like us to have that tactical flexibility and fluidity between and within games. Too often we've been scoutable and predictable. If the oppo don't know whether we'll be back three or four, it's a whole lot harder for them to set up.

Can I say that none of our centre backs bar maybe Iredale are particularly good on the ball? Johnston should be but isn’t. Santos has been pretty poor this season on the ball and certainly is no Beckenbauer. It’s one of the problems with three at the back. They are all comfortable coming forward with it but not very good at doing anything incisive with it.

I think sometimes you can (royal you) overcomplicate football and tactics. Final third do I want an overlapping centre back to have the ball or do I want Dapo or Sadlier to have it? I know who is most likely to score or create a chance.

And same goes for spare man. I’d rather have full backs in Bradley and Iredale as the spare man on the over or under lap than Johnston or Jones….

The three at the back puts complete emphasis on your wing backs to best people and create. It means you have less quality in the final third unless your wing backs are as good as Dapo in those areas…they aren’t.

[TANGODANCER]

Today proved that ability to pull chestnuts out of the fire and salvage something is every bit as important as who is playing well but ineffectively. We were a lost cause at 2-0 down, then some spirit and determination saved the day and got us the points. We need somebody to finish and both Bod and Charles were off the mark today. Charles's miss on the highlights was blatant. I'm thinking that more than just Accrington will have noticed that long throws trouble us.

[Prufrock]

I really don’t get this tactical inflexibility.

Play Iredale, Johnston, Santos, Jones and that’s surely a defensively sound enough back line. Then you’ve got plenty of options for the midfield and front threes.

i dunno. For a start he may play a four today. Also, playing Izzy and Dapo at WB is hardly being a stick in the mud.

He’s switched formations more than most managers we’ve had. And there are elements of pattern-play which suit us more in a back three than a four. There’s a fascinating article in The Athletic with Sol Campbell, Matthew Upson and Danny Higginbotham (plus a coach) comparing playing in the two systems and I have to say the back three sounds like it suits us more.

https://theathletic.com/3679252/2022/10 ... ed_article

Is that the one you sent me? I haven't read it yet (hey, it's the internet) but it strikes me as defenders being f*cking lazy. Oh all the defenders wanted more cover did they?

I'm pretty convinced at the top of the game 4 beats 5. Good teams play 5 but the best play 4. Could be the best shape down here. But for me get Dapo and Sads in their best positions. Dapo especially. He's a better left winger than any of our forwards are forwards.

Interesting you read it like that. I read it as the more expansive, ball-playing defenders preferring the back three. And we have a lot more of those than the other kind.

What we don't have is fully rounded wing-backs. And that is a problem. We went today with two very attacking wingbacks but it wasn't those who put us 2-0 down; the first goal was a combination of MJ and Santos losing a battle, Gethin being out of position and Johnston being unable to cover two positions – no wingback on our books past and present could have made up for that. The second goal was just rank bad defending from a set piece - something we've had in any formation you choose - but in this instance particularly Lee.

That said, the triple sub and formation switch certainly changed the game. I said after Barnsley that we might need to go back-four and (your favourite!) high width in games against low blocks or on tight pitches; it worked very well and I'm very glad it did, because losing to Accy yetabastardgain might have turned this autumn into a proper slog.

I'm still to be convinced that a back four is a panacea. The only time it's worked consistently for us is when we had Baptiste playing like Maldini alongside Santos who is, whatever hyperbolists may say, much better than a fourth-division centre-back. I'm not sure who plays alongside Santos in the middle - is Johnston strong enough to play there? How about against Burton in midweek? I'm not sure how you get Bradley and Gethin in the XI. Is that OK? The XI that finished today didn't have MJ in it. It didn't have Bodvarsson in it. It was a reaction that worked - is it sustainable?

But but but. It's really good to see us finding ways to win. And as I've said before I'd now like us to have that tactical flexibility and fluidity between and within games. Too often we've been scoutable and predictable. If the oppo don't know whether we'll be back three or four, it's a whole lot harder for them to set up.

I mean, as I say, I haven't actually read it yet

But I did write the above without knowing we'd changed shape to win, and lolled at that.

Though I think the same argument applies. Of course centre backs want to play on a system where they want to get the ball more, who wouldn't, but they're centre backs for a reason.

I try to disagree with Insano wherever possible (he is insane after all) but he's not wrong in that who do you want on the ball with time. Dapo, or Gethin? It's harder to get your left winger in space, but you get Dapo wide with a LB overlapping then good luck defending that at this level.

The centre back point is a fair one. I'm not convinced by Johnstone in a 4 but he does seem to have beefed up and, as importantly, it's a lot harder to target him when he's got Iredale next to him then John.

If the last two years have taught us anything, it's that the sooner we change shape from what we started with, the better.

Gethin v Bradley is another fair point, but a good one. Gethin has been excellent, but our current formation has Dapo getting splinters and I'm happier for Gethin to do that. Plus Bradley will be banned for another two games by about Xmas anyway.