Time Cheltenham men please....At HomeV,Cheltenham at the completely Bolton Stadium Sat 4th feb 3-0'clock.

[GhostoftheBok]

If it's that good TD, please could you run with something like "Peterborough, we'll shit 'em?"

Just tempting fate for someone to have a Gary Lineker moment with that one.

[BWFC_Insane]

Before they rule out heading they'd have to entirely ban boxing. Which I'd be down for (boxing) and if the evidence is there to suggest heading is a big enough risk factor then yep, football will have to follow.

I can understand why you might say this, but, reality is the two decisions are not connected. Just as likely that a load of class action type lawsuits in football would have a significant effect that determined they felt the need to move unilaterally...

Edit: We've seen significant moves in Rugby Union to what constitutes a high tackle...people getting sent off when there's clearly no intent, but they "slid up" and made contact with the head...

The evidence base is stronger for boxing that football. And the studies are linked. So my point being - if you get to the point where you demonstrate heading in modern football is a significant enough risk factor to rule it out, then boxing has already been banned.

[Worthy4England]

Before they rule out heading they'd have to entirely ban boxing. Which I'd be down for (boxing) and if the evidence is there to suggest heading is a big enough risk factor then yep, football will have to follow.

I can understand why you might say this, but, reality is the two decisions are not connected. Just as likely that a load of class action type lawsuits in football would have a significant effect that determined they felt the need to move unilaterally...

Edit: We've seen significant moves in Rugby Union to what constitutes a high tackle...people getting sent off when there's clearly no intent, but they "slid up" and made contact with the head...

The evidence base is stronger for boxing that football. And the studies are linked. So my point being - if you get to the point where you demonstrate heading in modern football is a significant enough risk factor to rule it out, then boxing has already been banned.

Of course the evidence base is going to be stronger for boxing (and probably all the MMA etc.) I wouldn't rule out football moving unilaterally though. It doesn't have to wait for boxing to go first. That is all.

[dave the minion]

At the game on Saturday there was the incident where the chap was off the pitch injured and signalled to his bench that he was done. As we all saw he then came back on to the pitch and lay down, thereby wasting more time. Now I can't actually state this but had that chap already been booked ? And if so it was a particularly stupid thing to do because he could/should have got a second yellow and therefore a red. Williams I think.

That riled me up more than anything - It should have been a second yellow, without a shadow of a doubt.

Referees really do need some intervention from above when it comes to time-wasting. It's getting beyond a joke. From the 2nd to the 79th minute, they took a total of 24 minutes to take throw-ins, corners, GK's & FK's - That's deliberate and they got 1, or maybe 2 bookings for it (though I think the first was for stopping a quick freekick from us)

They even had the f-in nerve to try and fight with a teenage ball boy, because he gave the ball to the keeper, too quickly!!

They were, quite frankly, disgraceful. don't think they'd dare do that if the Sky cameras were around, but imagine the backlash if they did?

Absolutely delighted that we beat them and I hope they get relegated

This.
They were a disgrace. Even a little lad near us - no more than 6 or 7 - turned to his dad at one point and said something about being bored because nothing is happening other than the fans booing them!!

The sad truth is that we even have to discuss this and potential safeguards against it happening in future. Its just cheating. No more, no less. Plain, blatant cheating.

[BWFC_Insane]

Before they rule out heading they'd have to entirely ban boxing. Which I'd be down for (boxing) and if the evidence is there to suggest heading is a big enough risk factor then yep, football will have to follow.

I can understand why you might say this, but, reality is the two decisions are not connected. Just as likely that a load of class action type lawsuits in football would have a significant effect that determined they felt the need to move unilaterally...

Edit: We've seen significant moves in Rugby Union to what constitutes a high tackle...people getting sent off when there's clearly no intent, but they "slid up" and made contact with the head...

The evidence base is stronger for boxing that football. And the studies are linked. So my point being - if you get to the point where you demonstrate heading in modern football is a significant enough risk factor to rule it out, then boxing has already been banned.

Of course the evidence base is going to be stronger for boxing (and probably all the MMA etc.) I wouldn't rule out football moving unilaterally though. It doesn't have to wait for boxing to go first. That is all.

Fair point. I guess I wouldn't expect a universal application of evidence all at once. So yeah. Only a matter of time I guess.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Absolutely delighted that we beat them and I hope they get relegated

Can't argue with that.

I still recall with delight the day Orient (they may have just re-adopted the Leyton) came to Burnden and shithoused for 90 minutes chasing a 0-0. Reevesy scored in injury time and we won 1-0. It remains one of the ethically purest victories I've ever enjoyed. I still think of it regularly, more than three decades on – and I must admit when they went out of the league a few years ago I felt a lot less sympathy for them (famous old name etc) because of it.

Results business, I get it. But f**k 'em. These people are stealing money from us.

[dave the minion]

It's mad. The added time at the world cup is one of the few recent changes from FIFA that made sense and worked and it seems to have disappeared.

You don't need to fanny around with shot clocks or 60 min games. There's already a mechanism.. Just use it.

They also need to sort players taking the piss pretending to have head injuries. That's much harder, feck knows how, but Hojbjerg today was a particularly egregious example.

I'm not sure the world cup change lasted as far as round 2, TBF. But I was in favour of it. Before I got to the end of the post, I was going to type Hojbjerg mastered it in spades yesterday. For me, they should send that to Stockley and book the cheat alongside others that do the same (not singling out Hojbjerg, other than it was a great example)

Its utterly cynical but what can they do? They can't prove a player hasn't had a head injury (unless you can show nothing hit their head) and given the scrutiny on this there is absolutely no choices here. Ball hits players head. Down they go. You can't prove it wasn't something that needed treatment because they are under pressure to take head injuries as seriously as they can.

The problem is, where do you go with it. Defender makes a "normal" header but it goes straight up in the air in the box, so he drops like he's been shot. Stop the game? At some point, I figure, with the cases of dementia being associated that balls over head height will one day be banned.

I don't think they'll been over head height. They'll make it so your head is treated like your hands/arms and so it's a free kick off you deliberately use it to play the ball. Is a fundamental change to the game though.

They have trialled exactly this at grassroots football this season. Certainly at U12 level the FA issued a statement that in some games they were going to trial no headers, with a deliberate header being treated as a free-kick to the opposition, and continued offences with a booking.
As ludicrous asa the rule would be, and very hard to enforce (what constitutes "deliberate" - not quite the same as an arm!), it was even more laughable that they were going to trial it in the odd game that the ref wanted to!! Needless to say, we've not yet had a ref who wanted to....

[BWFC_Insane]

Absolutely delighted that we beat them and I hope they get relegated

Can't argue with that.

I still recall with delight the day Orient (they may have just re-adopted the Leyton) came to Burnden and shithoused for 90 minutes chasing a 0-0. Reevesy scored in injury time and we won 1-0. It remains one of the ethically purest victories I've ever enjoyed. I still think of it regularly, more than three decades on – and I must admit when they went out of the league a few years ago I felt a lot less sympathy for them (famous old name etc) because of it.

Results business, I get it. But f**k 'em. These people are stealing money from us.

What Cheltenham did on Saturday extended beyond the realms of gamesmanship into out and out blatant cheating. Aided by an incompetent referee who could have stopped it dead in its tracks but allowed it to get worse.

However, lets not become too Souness style puritanical about it. Teams are entitled to come here for a 0-0 and slow the game down and be 'physical' within the laws of the game if they choose. Many will.

I'd be delighted if we shithouse our way to a scrappy, 1-0 on Saturday or even 0-0 by slowing the game down and frustrating Peteborough. So will everyone else.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

You can celebrate whatever you want, bud - although despite us winning on saturday you complained about us playing slow.

Ball was in play for less than 47 minutes. We’re being cheated out of our money’s worth. Not as if it’s cheap anyway.

As Pru says, refs have the power - they just haven’t used it, except in Qatar.

[BWFC_Insane]

You can celebrate whatever you want, bud - although despite us winning on saturday you complained about us playing slow.

Ball was in play for less than 47 minutes. We’re being cheated out of our money’s worth. Not as if it’s cheap anyway.

As Pru says, refs have the power - they just haven’t used it, except in Qatar.

At 1-0 we were happy to take our time, keep it in the corner, mess around a bit. You can argue we were justified after their antics. But I'm saying there is a difference between the blatant cheating they engaged in and some gamesmanship and we have and will indulge in the latter.

If we're 1-0 up at OT with 5 minutes on the clock I'd be bloody hoping we time waste. And we would - if we got the chance.

I think the bottom line is referees are shocking. All the need to do is enforce the laws. And we'd not have this discussion.

[knobpolisher]

In some ways we are partly to blame as we don't play at a high enough tempo from minute one.
The certain way to prevent oppo time wasting is to get ahead as quickly as possible and thereby open the game up. I know we are of course trying to score as early as possible but when we fanny around with the ball at the back then move it forward then play it back to Santos et al we are in my opinion time wasting. Why not play at a high tempo and get a shot in instead of playing for that killer ball into the six yard box, a killer ball that rarely appears. Also as others have mentioned stop it with those stupid near post corners !

[Worthy4England]

You can celebrate whatever you want, bud - although despite us winning on saturday you complained about us playing slow.

Ball was in play for less than 47 minutes. We’re being cheated out of our money’s worth. Not as if it’s cheap anyway.

As Pru says, refs have the power - they just haven’t used it, except in Qatar.

At 1-0 we were happy to take our time, keep it in the corner, mess around a bit. You can argue we were justified after their antics. But I'm saying there is a difference between the blatant cheating they engaged in and some gamesmanship and we have and will indulge in the latter.

If we're 1-0 up at OT with 5 minutes on the clock I'd be bloody hoping we time waste. And we would - if we got the chance.

I think the bottom line is referees are shocking. All the need to do is enforce the laws. And we'd not have this discussion.

I think keeping the ball in a corner is fine. It's in play...

[BWFC_Insane]

You can celebrate whatever you want, bud - although despite us winning on saturday you complained about us playing slow.

Ball was in play for less than 47 minutes. We’re being cheated out of our money’s worth. Not as if it’s cheap anyway.

As Pru says, refs have the power - they just haven’t used it, except in Qatar.

At 1-0 we were happy to take our time, keep it in the corner, mess around a bit. You can argue we were justified after their antics. But I'm saying there is a difference between the blatant cheating they engaged in and some gamesmanship and we have and will indulge in the latter.

If we're 1-0 up at OT with 5 minutes on the clock I'd be bloody hoping we time waste. And we would - if we got the chance.

I think the bottom line is referees are shocking. All the need to do is enforce the laws. And we'd not have this discussion.

I think keeping the ball in a corner is fine. It's in play...

We also took our time on throw ins. And cheered when the ball boy was very slow to return them the ball (presumably under instruction from Charles).

[BWFC_Insane]

In some ways we are partly to blame as we don't play at a high enough tempo from minute one.
The certain way to prevent oppo time wasting is to get ahead as quickly as possible and thereby open the game up. I know we are of course trying to score as early as possible but when we fanny around with the ball at the back then move it forward then play it back to Santos et al we are in my opinion time wasting. Why not play at a high tempo and get a shot in instead of playing for that killer ball into the six yard box, a killer ball that rarely appears. Also as others have mentioned stop it with those stupid near post corners !

Yeah this. We struggle against teams that do this because we find it hard to play at a tempo from the start and maintain it.

We were slowing the game down early doors. Free kicks we weren't taking them quickly. We were then going backwards.

When we played a higher tempo towards the end of the first half we had chances but too often we slip into 'sideways stuff'. I do think a lot of the reason for this is Santos himself. He dallies on the ball. But also because he gets given it a lot, whereas maybe Aimson wouldn't be so much it means we are progressing up the pitch less quickly. The other obvious issue is our wing backs are awful with delivery. Doing what Cheltenham did was nigh on impossible IF we could put a decent delivery in.

[Worthy4England]

You can celebrate whatever you want, bud - although despite us winning on saturday you complained about us playing slow.

Ball was in play for less than 47 minutes. We’re being cheated out of our money’s worth. Not as if it’s cheap anyway.

As Pru says, refs have the power - they just haven’t used it, except in Qatar.

At 1-0 we were happy to take our time, keep it in the corner, mess around a bit. You can argue we were justified after their antics. But I'm saying there is a difference between the blatant cheating they engaged in and some gamesmanship and we have and will indulge in the latter.

If we're 1-0 up at OT with 5 minutes on the clock I'd be bloody hoping we time waste. And we would - if we got the chance.

I think the bottom line is referees are shocking. All the need to do is enforce the laws. And we'd not have this discussion.

I think keeping the ball in a corner is fine. It's in play...

We also took our time on throw ins. And cheered when the ball boy was very slow to return them the ball (presumably under instruction from Charles).

To me, all teams do it. Some might take it to extremes - it's part and parcel. We do it too. The great answer to time wasting teams is be one goal up.

That said, I'd certainly add time on, more than we currently do when the ball is out of play, as others have noted, 47 minutes in play is really poor - think the prem typically averages about 55 minutes...

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

A small but important point about recycling the ball. Sometimes, if the oppo defence is sat in, we can’t just Get It Forward Quickly, as that will just turn over possession. What we should do there is pass the ball between ourselves, look for a gap and penetrate it. I’m not saying for a moment that we’ve never been guilty of moving the ball too slowly - the very point is to find their weak spot, and if you dally they can reorganise. But not all sideways passing is bad passing, and we won’t get much by Sticking It In The Mixer.

[BWFC_Insane]

A small but important point about recycling the ball. Sometimes, if the oppo defence is sat in, we can’t just Get It Forward Quickly, as that will just turn over possession. What we should do there is pass the ball between ourselves, look for a gap and penetrate it. I’m not saying for a moment that we’ve never been guilty of moving the ball too slowly - the very point is to find their weak spot, and if you dally they can reorganise. But not all sideways passing is bad passing, and we won’t get much by Sticking It In The Mixer.

We've shown though that we're not good enough to slowly pass and then go through the gears to find a way to create chances.

We are a team who operates only well at tempo. Within 10 minutes you can tell if we'll struggle by the amount of 'sideways' me to you stuff we're indulging in. And the thing is even if we lose the ball, we can then counter press and create tempo that way. But its beyond just that and at times we dawdled to take free kicks, take our time over throw ins....when a team is doing what Cheltenham do why would we ever wait to take a throw in so they have all their players back in position, why wouldn't we immediately take it and play?

[TANGODANCER]

We also took our time on throw ins. And cheered when the ball boy was very slow to return them the ball (presumably under instruction from Charles).

Something a bit about two wrongs not making a right here?

[GhostoftheBok]

A small but important point about recycling the ball. Sometimes, if the oppo defence is sat in, we can’t just Get It Forward Quickly, as that will just turn over possession. What we should do there is pass the ball between ourselves, look for a gap and penetrate it. I’m not saying for a moment that we’ve never been guilty of moving the ball too slowly - the very point is to find their weak spot, and if you dally they can reorganise. But not all sideways passing is bad passing, and we won’t get much by Sticking It In The Mixer.

We have signed Shoretire precisely because we recognise the need to play one-touch passes in attacking areas. The same with having signed Nlundulu and Williams because they can beat men and make an organised defence become suddenly disorganised.

Those are the things we've lacked. Quick-ball between the forwards and players who will beat their man one-on-one in key areas.

Shoretire did some of that in the first half, but the ball tended to break down with Charles.

Neither Nlundulu not Williams were available.

As DSB says, the solution here is not to change what we do - it's to find solutions for where it's going wrong. We're just unfortunate that two key solutions are injured at the same time.

[Gary the Enfield]

We are still missing large swathes of the community, though.

This. Absolutely. 100%

The guy I sit next to teaches at a primary school with a predominantly Asian intake who, he says,feel somewhat ostracised when it comes to football.

How? Why? This is utterly ridiculous!

Do you think a large part of this may be the presence of alcohol? I know 'asian' is a very broad term but in Bolton we have a large Pakistani, Bangladeshi population who are also Muslim. The presence of alcohol would prevent a large proportion of that demographic attending.

The other elephant in the room would be the element of knuckle dragging racists all football crowds seem to have. They are a (thankfully declining) but vocal minority. I wouldn't pay money to stand in a toxic environment like that.