Time Cheltenham men please....At HomeV,Cheltenham at the completely Bolton Stadium Sat 4th feb 3-0'clock.

[BWFC_Insane]

We are still missing large swathes of the community, though.

This. Absolutely. 100%

The guy I sit next to teaches at a primary school with a predominantly Asian intake who, he says,feel somewhat ostracised when it comes to football.

How? Why? This is utterly ridiculous!

Do you think a large part of this may be the presence of alcohol? I know 'asian' is a very broad term but in Bolton we have a large Pakistani, Bangladeshi population who are also Muslim. The presence of alcohol would prevent a large proportion of that demographic attending.

The other elephant in the room would be the element of knuckle dragging racists all football crowds seem to have. They are a (thankfully declining) but vocal minority. I wouldn't pay money to stand in a toxic environment like that.

In my experience they were declining but in the last six or seven years have been on the rise again.

Beyond that I think its a combination of lots of things including the two you mention, communities not feeling engaged or part of it, and general perceptions and attitudes. Some of this needs long term work to really fix. But I think we should as a club be doing it. I'd like more of our town to feel like the club is theirs, and to go and enjoy football. I also think it makes sense for the club. We do have a glass ceiling in terms of attracting support from the wider area and region given the competition. But there are communities in our town we haven't even started to attract to the ground yet.

[Prufrock]

It's a tricky one isn't it. I think Blackburn have certain areas of the ground that are "dry". On the one hand you want people through the door. On the other you don't want de facto segregation.

[boltonboris]

Manchester United, Arsenal etc have no issues attracting South Asian supporters.

Perhaps, as Football is generally not their sporting priority, they'd rather watch the best players

[TANGODANCER]

Liverpool, Belfast and Glasgow have long been three of the most prominent examples of sectarianism if not racism in football although it doesn't extend too prominently outside of the stadiums at least as much as it once did before racism became a major issue. It was (is) however a source of hatred of the worst sort. I can't speak with current authority on this, but as ever, the words "some" and not "all" are ever the guidelines and quantifying them is far more difficult as there are always the silent enmity whose views are unknown. I somehow feel it will never fully disappear as human nature is fickle. Maybe the law and authority will eventually sort it all out, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[GhostoftheBok]

There's a limited amount I'd want to say about all this on a public forum, but there was a researched document outlining how to do this work a decade ago and it got nowhere for various reasons.

Most of that paper still stands.

North Stand becomes a kop end with less strict enforcement of things like standing regs, the rest of the stadium has much more strict enforcement of anti-social behaviour rules.
Need for a fan zone - which we've done.
Kids pre and post match activities, including involving players and their families on a voluntary basis.
Vastly improved schools outreach.
Reworked matchday travel, including family buses aimed specifically at young supporters which would collect families from near-school locations.
Minority community outreach, including the formation of club affiliated supporters groups in those communities.
Outreach to the gay community on a similar basis.
Murals and other club-related art in the town centre, along with a joint council-club program to improve visibility in the town.

I could go on. At the time, the belief amongst some was it simply wasn't possible to place the club back at the heart of the community or increase attendances. Hopefully that view has now changed and FV seem to be doing some of what we should have started doing 20 years ago, never mind 10.

[boltonboris]

I'm not sure GOTB - Our CEO wants to marginalise fans even further by getting rid of all transport links to the stadium, in order to maximise the car park revenue

[GhostoftheBok]

I was wondering recently if the creation of Wanderers TV (should the 3pm blackout be scrapped for next season) wouldn't allow them to set up some kind of fan zone style system on Victoria Square for Saturday away games. Get the game on on big screens, have some of the vendors from the fan zone set up there, former players, club officials who don't travel for games etc. If the council wasn't interested then you could do it at the ground and use the suite and fan zone there, though regardless I'd be tempted to run some midweek pilots at the stadium.

There's a lot you could do with that in terms of making it a regular event, especially in terms of getting kids involved with skill schools and things like that on the Saturdays.

[BWFC_Insane]

Manchester United, Arsenal etc have no issues attracting South Asian supporters.

Perhaps, as Football is generally not their sporting priority, they'd rather watch the best players

I suspect that they being metropolitan city areas might be more welcoming and better integrated generally….

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm not sure GOTB - Our CEO wants to marginalise fans even further by getting rid of all transport links to the stadium, in order to maximise the car park revenue

Yeah, I wasn't impressed by that. I spoke to someone at the club about it and I'm not blind to the issues with FV. The "Auntie Shazza" schtick is fun, but the reality is these are business people concerned with their investment. I don't think scrapping the buses and trying to maximise the carparks is at all what's best for their bottom line in the long term, but it may be what they think. It's a failure of imagination, in my book; but then I'm not sat there every day so I'm out of touch with the realities now.

FV's reputation with most fans right now is bullet proof, but it doesn't take many stories of older fans who've been going 40 years not being able to get there anymore for fans to start having a go. Hart has already alienated some sections and he will be the one who takes the flak. He's probably fine with that, he seems the sort; but it's a bad idea.

I think in the end they'll scrap the buses, fudge it using Trust-run minibus services and sell it as an amazing example of the fans forming a community; but its the wrong approach.

A few years from now it'll be about how green clubs are and at that point you want a history of encouraging fans to use public and club transport. We can get ahead of that PR issue, as well as the others associated with being seen to have abandoned fans who can't travel, by making proper reforms to the bus system. Though, as I say, maybe I'm just vastly out of touch these days.

*edit* Just to add, I don't want to give a negative impression of the conversation I had with the club person yesterday. Far from it. Lovely bloke who very much cares about the club and said the right things. I just think the writing is on the wall from what Hart said.

[TANGODANCER]

Until we drop defining words like "Gay, Trans, lesbian, homo, race, colour, religion " etc altogether and just go back to cheering on and supporting your team regardless of all else, we'll never get anywhere. None of it has anything at all to do with sport. I'm an English/Irish Catholic but nobody has ever asked me mainly because, as I said, what's it got to do with football and I don't behave like a moron? Some of the worst loutish language and behaviour I ever saw was in our own North stand by Bolton supporters in front of and including young kids. How can that be addressed except by the parents, not officials?

I also don't believe trying to promote your own cause by parades, demonstrations etc creates anything and achieves nothing except ill will. Do what you want, be who you want and let everybody else do and be the same. Rules are made to be broken and they will be. Equality usually means role reversal at best.

You'll all answer to God one day anyway, whatever you believe and whoever you support.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm not sure GOTB - Our CEO wants to marginalise fans even further by getting rid of all transport links to the stadium, in order to maximise the car park revenue

Yeah, I wasn't impressed by that. I spoke to someone at the club about it and I'm not blind to the issues with FV. The "Auntie Shazza" schtick is fun, but the reality is these are business people concerned with their investment. I don't think scrapping the buses and trying to maximise the carparks is at all what's best for their bottom line in the long term, but it may be what they think. It's a failure of imagination, in my book; but then I'm not sat there every day so I'm out of touch with the realities now.

FV's reputation with most fans right now is bullet proof, but it doesn't take many stories of older fans who've been going 40 years not being able to get there anymore for fans to start having a go. Hart has already alienated some sections and he will be the one who takes the flak. He's probably fine with that, he seems the sort; but it's a bad idea.

I think in the end they'll scrap the buses, fudge it using Trust-run minibus services and sell it as an amazing example of the fans forming a community; but its the wrong approach.

A few years from now it'll be about how green clubs are and at that point you want a history of encouraging fans to use public and club transport. We can get ahead of that PR issue, as well as the others associated with being seen to have abandoned fans who can't travel, by making proper reforms to the bus system. Though, as I say, maybe I'm just vastly out of touch these days.

*edit* Just to add, I don't want to give a negative impression of the conversation I had with the club person yesterday. Far from it. Lovely bloke who very much cares about the club and said the right things. I just think the writing is on the wall from what Hart said.

The thing is when buses ran to the ground initially and indeed until relatively recently the fares were subsidised and it was excellent value. I believe the price of a bus far to the ground is now £8 - so no wonder hardly anyone is using the service.

The problem with Hart is he’s too defensive and too transparent. Yes you have frozen season ticket prices but Bolton fans can all see you screwing people on the car park. Not that I can even complain about it. Overall it’s still great value but he’s having a laugh defending the parking charge by suggesting it’s the ‘going rate’ to park at a city centre football ground maybe, but one in the middle of nowhere on a retail park where the rest of the week you park for free…come on don’t treat fans like idiots.

I mean generally the club are doing really well, they have sensible plans and are solid enough and have managed to create a buzz and bring fans through the gates. It’s generally great.

They just have to accept a few areas haven’t been so good and it’s usually when Hart opens his mouth. I don’t think he understands the basic trick of hiding the business part and emphasising the community part when talking to fans. I’m not overly keen on his approach thus far. Doesn’t engage that well and introduces things like membership without proper consultation or explanation or even suitable planning. The actual thing was necessary but the execution was shoddy to say the least.

And again the bus thing. We can and have all seen it coming. Price rises and drops in use. But there is a way to present it. A way to do it. He does not excel on engagement. He’s shockingly poor at that side.

[BWFC_Insane]

Until we drop defining words like "Gay, Trans, lesbian, homo, race, colour, religion " etc altogether and just go back to cheering on and supporting your team regardless of all else, we'll never get anywhere. None of it has anything at all to do with sport. I'm an English/Irish Catholic but nobody has ever asked me mainly because, as I said, what's it got to do with football and I don't behave like a moron? Some of the worst loutish language and behaviour I ever saw was in our own North stand by Bolton supporters in front of and including young kids. How can that be addressed except by the parents, not officials?

I also don't believe trying to promote your own cause by parades, demonstrations etc creates anything and achieves nothing except ill will. Do what you want, be who you want and let everybody else do and be the same. Rules are made to be broken and they will be. Equality usually means role reversal at best.

You'll all answer to God one day anyway, whatever you believe and whoever you support.

Is your point that where there are underrepresented communities attending matches the club shouldn’t bother doing anything and just say ‘ah well’?

I’m unsure what you are arguing for here. If Bolton has some sizeable populations of communities of people who for one reason or another aren’t attending football matches but might do if there was some engagement wouldn’t it be wise to try and engage and encourage?

[GhostoftheBok]

The thing is when buses ran to the ground initially and indeed until relatively recently the fares were subsidised and it was excellent value. I believe the price of a bus far to the ground is now £8 - so no wonder hardly anyone is using the service.

It was previously seen as part of the deal made with fans when moving he stadium. Yes, we're moving away from the town centre; but you'll always be able to get to games.

FV no longer feel bound by that and it's hard to blame them. However, I think it's really short sighted to try and funnel people into over-priced parking. I don't know if it's part of the agreement they've made with the new parking company, but could imagine that's the case.

The idea that it's fundamentally impossible to run a sustainable bus service for match days is an utter nonsense, as proven by dozens of other clubs around the country. So if it is canned it's not because it couldn't be done, it's because they couldn't do it (or didn't want to).

[BWFC_Insane]

The thing is when buses ran to the ground initially and indeed until relatively recently the fares were subsidised and it was excellent value. I believe the price of a bus far to the ground is now £8 - so no wonder hardly anyone is using the service.

It was previously seen as part of the deal made with fans when moving he stadium. Yes, we're moving away from the town centre; but you'll always be able to get to games.

FV no longer feel bound by that and it's hard to blame them. However, I think it's really short sighted to try and funnel people into over-priced parking. I don't know if it's part of the agreement they've made with the new parking company, but could imagine that's the case.

The idea that it's fundamentally impossible to run a sustainable bus service for match days is an utter nonsense, as proven by dozens of other clubs around the country. So if it is canned it's not because it couldn't be done, it's because they couldn't do it (or didn't want to).

I guess you can business case it…run a subsidised bus service at say £4 per person.

How much does that cost the club vs how many extra fans do they bring in.

They will have done that calculation. My point is it’s never going to be worth it at £8. So it’s a bit lame saying ‘hey nobody uses it’. They used to, when it was not ridiculous prices.

I guess bottom line is that they have a car park model where the club gets a cut of every extra car and isn’t subsidising it. The parking operator will take a chunk and camera installation and maintainence is covered by that. Any bus service is a cost.

[GhostoftheBok]

I guess you can business case it…run a subsidised bus service at say £4 per person.

How much does that cost the club vs how many extra fans do they bring in.

They will have done that calculation. My point is it’s never going to be worth it at £8. So it’s a bit lame saying ‘hey nobody uses it’. They used to, when it was not ridiculous prices.

I guess bottom line is that they have a car park model where the club gets a cut of every extra car and isn’t subsidising it. The parking operator will take a chunk and camera installation and maintainence is covered by that. Any bus service is a cost.

The bus service needed more income, rather than simply raised prices (which inevitably reduced ridership). I've said before that there should be season passes sold with season ticket. Allow people to buy in advance at a lower rate and pay via direct debit - on exactly the same lines as a tickets. People buying on the day pay a higher rate, but there should be family and group tickets that still offer a discount(as Reading and Oxford offer, for example).

The club should be actively pushing the buses as the preferred option for getting to games. But, as you say, if they have decided to try and funnel people into the car parks then that's what they've done.

If you planned bus times around fan zone events, sold season passes, allowed decoration of the buses etc then you could absolutely make the system work both financially and for the fans; but as I say I might be totally out of touch with the current realities.

[BWFC_Insane]

I guess you can business case it…run a subsidised bus service at say £4 per person.

How much does that cost the club vs how many extra fans do they bring in.

They will have done that calculation. My point is it’s never going to be worth it at £8. So it’s a bit lame saying ‘hey nobody uses it’. They used to, when it was not ridiculous prices.

I guess bottom line is that they have a car park model where the club gets a cut of every extra car and isn’t subsidising it. The parking operator will take a chunk and camera installation and maintainence is covered by that. Any bus service is a cost.

The bus service needed more income, rather than simply raised prices (which inevitably reduced ridership). I've said before that there should be season passes sold with season ticket. Allow people to buy in advance at a lower rate and pay via direct debit - on exactly the same lines as a tickets. People buying on the day pay a higher rate, but there should be family and group tickets that still offer a discount(as Reading and Oxford offer, for example).

The club should be actively pushing the buses as the preferred option for getting to games. But, as you say, if they have decided to try and funnel people into the car parks then that's what they've done.

If you planned bus times around fan zone events, sold season passes, allowed decoration of the buses etc then you could absolutely make the system work both financially and for the fans; but as I say I might be totally out of touch with the current realities.

Agreed - from the little I know its still a hit to the club...and the more you reduce it the higher the subsidy. That might have been pocket change as a top flight club...probably now its a bit more significant.

Loads of things they should be doing though to encourage environmentally more friendly ways of reaching the ground...with a bit of imagination I reckon they could do something really quite good.

[GhostoftheBok]

Agreed - from the little I know its still a hit to the club...and the more you reduce it the higher the subsidy. That might have been pocket change as a top flight club...probably now its a bit more significant.

Loads of things they should be doing though to encourage environmentally more friendly ways of reaching the ground...with a bit of imagination I reckon they could do something really quite good.

The club is on one of the North West's major cycle routes, but there's no secure bike storage. There's a train station, but the police wanted the club to discourage train travel. The buses are being scuppered. It's too far to walk.

It's basically heading to "drive, or don't come", which is stupid for any major events venue. If you did the proffer for a new build stadium and when asked about transport you said "Everyone can just drive" you'd be laughed at. Nobody would accept it as an answer.

The congestion in the area is bad enough as it is. The club should have been looking at integrated solutions to this since FV took over.

[TANGODANCER]

Until we drop defining words like "Gay, Trans, lesbian, homo, race, colour, religion " etc altogether and just go back to cheering on and supporting your team regardless of all else, we'll never get anywhere. None of it has anything at all to do with sport. I'm an English/Irish Catholic but nobody has ever asked me mainly because, as I said, what's it got to do with football and I don't behave like a moron? Some of the worst loutish language and behaviour I ever saw was in our own North stand by Bolton supporters in front of and including young kids. How can that be addressed except by the parents, not officials?

I also don't believe trying to promote your own cause by parades, demonstrations etc creates anything and achieves nothing except ill will. Do what you want, be who you want and let everybody else do and be the same. Rules are made to be broken and they will be. Equality usually means role reversal at best.

You'll all answer to God one day anyway, whatever you believe and whoever you support.

Is your point that where there are underrepresented communities attending matches the club shouldn’t bother doing anything and just say ‘ah well’?

I’m unsure what you are arguing for here. If Bolton has some sizeable populations of communities of people who for one reason or another aren’t attending football matches but might do if there was some engagement wouldn’t it be wise to try and engage and encourage?

An answer from you I fully expected. Don't know why I bother. Please excuse me for distrurbing the equilibrium.

[GhostoftheBok]

The bus service is apparently costing the club less now that it was 10 years ago. If Hart is incapable of finding a solution to that small a shortfall then we can just take his salary and use that on the buses.

[boltonboris]

The hit to the club, is apparently around £45,000 to subsidise the Bus service

Around 400 people use the matchday buses, down from about 1000 a few years ago (due to price increases)

Let's say half of those 400 won't renew season tickets (the 14 of us who attend each week probably won't renew)

£200 x an average of let's say £200 for the ST's = £40,000 lost Season Ticket revenue

That leaves the club £5k better off for an entire year. Until you take out how many beers, hot dogs etc will be paid for and consumed.

On the flip side, you could keep the buses, keep those fans in the ground and release one of the B Team players who will NEVER get into the 1st team and will NEVER generate a fee for the club