A switch of the (h) Ips and we're gone..Home V THE Tractor Boys Sat 11th Mar. 3-0'clock

[nicholaldo]

Bruce is an interesting one, because he has a similar record to Ian.

Promoted in his first season. Then finished midtable (Ian managed 9th vs 14th?). Then play-offs and a cup final.

Hard to compare directly as Bruce came in to some kind of structure whereas Ian had to totally rebuild a football club, but has operated a division lower.

Both should be celebrated as doing incredible jobs here.

In terms of finances, in Bruce's third season we weren't destitute. When he first arrived there had to be a lot of wheeler dealing, from his telling of it, to get the players he needed; but in his third season he and the chairman had sorted things out enough for him to think he could do something. Probably fairly similar in terms of financial standing. Nowhere near the top sides, but with enough to get a team together that could get into the play-offs.

I was a kid during that period though, so I'm going off having spoken to Bruce and people later. For me the actual footy is pure nostalgia. Hard to get past the fact that Bruce made me proud to be a Wanderers fan, having been laughed at for it previously.

Yeah I don’t think it’s comparable. For many reasons. A different era. A completely different club.

There is no way on gods Green earth that Evatt is going to come close to the impact Bruce Rioch had on Bolton wanderers. I mean Bruce was the man who laid the foundation or kickstarted Boltons transformation into a modern and competitive football club.

I think Evatt has done a really good job. However, the end to this season is a big test. And he needs to pass the test.

I often think Evatt has a touch of Rioch about him but then sometimes you wonder if he’s more Phil Neal…it’s sometimes hard to say. Rioch had that perfect balance of discipline, man management and genuine motivation. Evatt is much younger though and still learning.

What constitutes passing that test, in your opinion?

[GhostoftheBok]

No need for the sarcasm, but surely in regards to win ratios you can't compare wins in the championship or premier league to wins in League 1 or 2 ?

You have to view a manager holistically, but I think the idea that the manager who holds that record is suspect is fairly nuts.

Ian gets it wrong sometimes. I think he made a mistake against Ipswich. However, he usually gets it right.

Every manager makes tactical errors. Whether a manager is tactically good or bad is about how often they make errors and Ian doesn't make a lot.

Ultimately a manager is competing at the level he's at and until he moves up that's where he's judged. Evatt's doing a cracking job as things stand.

One of my favourite things about football discussion is how often Pep gets criticised for for being tactically poor, despite his 74% career win percentage. So I suppose Ian's in good company.

[GhostoftheBok]

For clarity, I don't think Ian Evatt is as good as Pep Guardiola.

On the other hand I'm fairly sure that Ian Evatt thinks Ian Evatt is as good as Pep Guardiola.

[GhostoftheBok]

Yeah I don’t think it’s comparable. For many reasons. A different era. A completely different club.

There is no way on gods Green earth that Evatt is going to come close to the impact Bruce Rioch had on Bolton wanderers. I mean Bruce was the man who laid the foundation or kickstarted Boltons transformation into a modern and competitive football club.

I think Evatt has done a really good job. However, the end to this season is a big test. And he needs to pass the test.

I often think Evatt has a touch of Rioch about him but then sometimes you wonder if he’s more Phil Neal…it’s sometimes hard to say. Rioch had that perfect balance of discipline, man management and genuine motivation. Evatt is much younger though and still learning.

Hopefully the only thing Ian gets compared to Phil Neal for in the future is that they both won the League Trophy.

He's doing a good job. That's enough for now. I wouldn't say he can't ever come close to Bruce. If Evatt managed to do what he says he will, which is take us from no football department in League Two to the Premier League, he'll have surpassed Bruce.

We'll see how it goes.

[BWFC_Insane]

Bruce is an interesting one, because he has a similar record to Ian.

Promoted in his first season. Then finished midtable (Ian managed 9th vs 14th?). Then play-offs and a cup final.

Hard to compare directly as Bruce came in to some kind of structure whereas Ian had to totally rebuild a football club, but has operated a division lower.

Both should be celebrated as doing incredible jobs here.

In terms of finances, in Bruce's third season we weren't destitute. When he first arrived there had to be a lot of wheeler dealing, from his telling of it, to get the players he needed; but in his third season he and the chairman had sorted things out enough for him to think he could do something. Probably fairly similar in terms of financial standing. Nowhere near the top sides, but with enough to get a team together that could get into the play-offs.

I was a kid during that period though, so I'm going off having spoken to Bruce and people later. For me the actual footy is pure nostalgia. Hard to get past the fact that Bruce made me proud to be a Wanderers fan, having been laughed at for it previously.

Yeah I don’t think it’s comparable. For many reasons. A different era. A completely different club.

There is no way on gods Green earth that Evatt is going to come close to the impact Bruce Rioch had on Bolton wanderers. I mean Bruce was the man who laid the foundation or kickstarted Boltons transformation into a modern and competitive football club.

I think Evatt has done a really good job. However, the end to this season is a big test. And he needs to pass the test.

I often think Evatt has a touch of Rioch about him but then sometimes you wonder if he’s more Phil Neal…it’s sometimes hard to say. Rioch had that perfect balance of discipline, man management and genuine motivation. Evatt is much younger though and still learning.

What constitutes passing that test, in your opinion?

Making a decent stab at Wembley with a good performance and ideally result but not being rubbish and giving the fans who travel a proper show. Securing a play off position and at least putting up a decent showing in the semi.

[GhostoftheBok]

Making a decent stab at Wembley with a good performance and ideally result but not being rubbish and giving the fans who travel a proper show. Securing a play off position and at least putting up a decent showing in the semi.

Decent showing at Wembley and top 6 will be the minimum Evatt expects too.

[BWFC_Insane]

Making a decent stab at Wembley with a good performance and ideally result but not being rubbish and giving the fans who travel a proper show. Securing a play off position and at least putting up a decent showing in the semi.

Decent showing at Wembley and top 6 will be the minimum Evatt expects too.

Well yes. It’s the minimum anyone should accept. It’s a massive test for him. I think he’s got the smarts to deal with it because he’s absolutely getting better at reading the situation.

Rioch was the master of building things for the big occasion and I’m not sure Evatt has quite got there. Rioch teams grew a foot in the big games against better sides whereas Evatt ones shrink a foot. But it’s something he will learn. And of course I think he needs more of the right tools too.

[GhostoftheBok]

We shouldn't rewrite history, though. Bruce lost plenty of big games in his career and never won a trophy. He could definitely lift players in his time here, but he failed to do the same at other clubs.

Sam lost his cup final with a fairly tepid display.

We've seen other big games we'd rather forget.

We should absolutely expect performances from this group, but if we are crap in the next two games it doesn't mean Evatt is shot as a manager.

I'd like to see the handbrake come off a bit and a couple of confident displays. I'll also be looking closely at Evatt and whether he's learnt to keep his emotions in check. You learn most from the tough runs and this, whilst not particularly bad at the minute, is a bit of a tough period. I remember when Sam went about 13 games without a league win and it started to get a bit tight in the post match. Then we won one and, as he said himself later, he got too carried away by it - we failed to win in the next 4. Sam said he'd have ended that run after about 5 games later in his career, but he didn't stay calm enough in some of the pre-match sessions and it transmitted to the players and snowballed.

We will learn a lot about this team in the next 10 games. Hopefully plenty of positives.

[Mar]

We shouldn't rewrite history, though. Bruce lost plenty of big games in his career and never won a trophy. He could definitely lift players in his time here, but he failed to do the same at other clubs.

Sam lost his cup final with a fairly tepid display.

We've seen other big games we'd rather forget.

We should absolutely expect performances from this group, but if we are crap in the next two games it doesn't mean Evatt is shot as a manager.

I'd like to see the handbrake come off a bit and a couple of confident displays. I'll also be looking closely at Evatt and whether he's learnt to keep his emotions in check. You learn most from the tough runs and this, whilst not particularly bad at the minute, is a bit of a tough period. I remember when Sam went about 13 games without a league win and it started to get a bit tight in the post match. Then we won one and, as he said himself later, he got too carried away by it - we failed to win in the next 4. Sam said he'd have ended that run after about 5 games later in his career, but he didn't stay calm enough in some of the pre-match sessions and it transmitted to the players and snowballed.

We will learn a lot about this team in the next 10 games. Hopefully plenty of positives.

Might be time for some of the outside the box thinking.

The big games that we've been up against are surely taking their toll mentally and physically and Evatt might just be the sort of manager that really adds to the pressure to get the players to understand exactly what they'll face. Sometimes it's best to take a step back and alleviate that mental strain. Remember the 5 successive wins where Allardyce kept giving them the day off if they won, perhaps its time to incentivise the players and freshen things up for a final push.

It seems as though we're struggling. Certainly against the teams at the top of the table. Perhaps, its time to adopt a bit of the joviality of Coyle. Coyle's problem was tactical ineptitude but he was good at getting players to enjoy the good times, I suspect that our tactics are that well drilled that the players know them like the back of their hands at the minute. It's time to ease the pressure and up their enjoyability, at least for now.

[OrtonCakeBingoBongo]

Bolton have lost too many games this season, that'd be a concern for me if a Trotters fan. I don't think you score nearly enough also. I don't know many of your players, in fact not sure quite how prolific some of the forward line are or strikers you have there but it seems your team isn't scoring as much as they should to be true promotion material, at least in an automatic sense.

Thing is at Ipswich, we're very tough to beat, defeats are very few and far between and not only that, we score just about every game, not just one but two or more each time out. We have so many attacking options we're spoiled for choice but the defence isn't quite of the same standard. Saying that we do seem to keep teams out often enough.

Trying to say if Bolton want a promotion maybe you need to believe in yourselves a little more or need that extra heart or momentum to really make it. You have a cushion over 7th place but that could or can be made up by the chasing pack. Say it one last time I'd like you to make it, if you fail this year it could be another 2 or 3 seasons before Wanderers make it back to Championship level. This league really is tougher than many would like to believe or make out.

I saw the game highlights, I thought we were inventive and showed character - didn't realise Walton made a penalty stop - but for chances created Town were value for a win. If you can score more in the games ahead and cut out as many (further) losses as possible you'll have a very good chance of a play-off finish. I wish you well.

[BWFC_Insane]

We shouldn't rewrite history, though. Bruce lost plenty of big games in his career and never won a trophy. He could definitely lift players in his time here, but he failed to do the same at other clubs.

Sam lost his cup final with a fairly tepid display.

We've seen other big games we'd rather forget.

We should absolutely expect performances from this group, but if we are crap in the next two games it doesn't mean Evatt is shot as a manager.

I'd like to see the handbrake come off a bit and a couple of confident displays. I'll also be looking closely at Evatt and whether he's learnt to keep his emotions in check. You learn most from the tough runs and this, whilst not particularly bad at the minute, is a bit of a tough period. I remember when Sam went about 13 games without a league win and it started to get a bit tight in the post match. Then we won one and, as he said himself later, he got too carried away by it - we failed to win in the next 4. Sam said he'd have ended that run after about 5 games later in his career, but he didn't stay calm enough in some of the pre-match sessions and it transmitted to the players and snowballed.

We will learn a lot about this team in the next 10 games. Hopefully plenty of positives.

Nobody is rewriting history. Bruce Rioch here in his first season had managed to get a league one (as per now) side to beat Premiership Liverpool away from home and then championship Wolves also away.

Then the run at the end of the season to win promotion when it really mattered is almost legendary. Full of massive games and we won almost all of them.

Evatt had a similar run in league two. But since then it’s pretty obvious his teams have struggled in the bigger games against the better sides. We have not scored against any of the top 6 at home. We’ve absolutely shrunk in games against good sides. That did not happen very often to Rioch’s Bolton.

The bottom line for me is all managers will lose some big games. If you lose so many in a single period it does start to reflect maybe especially when previously you were flying. We aren’t talking about a team struggling and playing good sides.

Let’s not shy away from it as Evatt won’t. We have messed up Saturday. It was a huge game and we were poor. Poorly prepared and did not perform. That’s one of a few of these games this season and last. But there are two massive games coming up next. We can’t afford for the same thing to happen and neither the club nor Evatt can. He needs to ensure it doesn’t

[boltonboris]

An afternoon to forget on the pitch.. We were thoroughly outrun and outmanoeuvred and it was mostly our own doing

Adeboyejo and Charles could not make the ball stick and our midfielders were not at the races. Misplaced pass after misplaced pass.

Spoke to Super John before the game, as my son had a meet and greet with some of the players at pitchside (they were all great lads, by the way!) and he remarked that we've simply run out of puff at the worst possible time. The training pitches haven't helped, but the stadium pitch has improved massively and now the grass is growing again, that and now, the training pitches should be tip top for the rest of the season.

I don't know what the solution is - We had a week between games and from the opening minutes looked leggy - They kept the ball well, which we knew they would, but apart from a few minutes after half-time, didn't so that ourselves.

Had we scored the penalty, who knows what would have happened, but my gut feeling is, Ipswich would have found another gear and still beat us

[TANGODANCER]

I saw the game highlights, I thought we were inventive and showed character - didn't realise Walton made a penalty stop - but for chances created Town were value for a win. If you can score more in the games ahead and cut out as many (further) losses as possible you'll have a very good chance of a play-off finish. I wish you well.

I think, with every respect and admitting that wasn't vintage Bolton, you're being a bit wise after the event here Bongo. Not sure you can define invention and character from two minutes of highlights (which I too only saw plus the text commentary.)Your second goal was a cracker and poor defending by us, but you first was a swing of a foot that could have gone anywhere. Missing the penalty was undoubtedly our worst sin and your goalie should be your Man of the Match. He saved a penalty and made another couple of critical saves. We're not where we are by being rubbish and a couple of wins could see us breathing down some necks. Let's wait a bit before counting hatched chickens hey?

[BWFC_Insane]

An afternoon to forget on the pitch.. We were thoroughly outrun and outmanoeuvred and it was mostly our own doing

Adeboyejo and Charles could not make the ball stick and our midfielders were not at the races. Misplaced pass after misplaced pass.

Spoke to Super John before the game, as my son had a meet and greet with some of the players at pitchside (they were all great lads, by the way!) and he remarked that we've simply run out of puff at the worst possible time. The training pitches haven't helped, but the stadium pitch has improved massively and now the grass is growing again, that and now, the training pitches should be tip top for the rest of the season.

I don't know what the solution is - We had a week between games and from the opening minutes looked leggy - They kept the ball well, which we knew they would, but apart from a few minutes after half-time, didn't so that ourselves.

Had we scored the penalty, who knows what would have happened, but my gut feeling is, Ipswich would have found another gear and still beat us

Yeah looking leggy is concerning. We had a very crammed February but these are things you have to deal with and not everyone has played every game either. I start to wonder if its like Bielsa at Leeds and Evatt has just worked them too hard - and made them do too much running to sustain a whole season?

Maybe we peaked in early Feb and can't get back to those levels now as legs have just run out?

I mean its true that this is the first time Evatt hasn't had a basically almost completely new team post January with new bodies taking up the slack. We're still reliant in the main on the Santos, Toal, Bradley, Morley, Dempsey, Lee, Charles etc who have played most of the season....maybe it is a flaw in his approach - that it can't be sustained on the training ground and in matches?

I hope not. I hope we find a way to restore the energy - the crowd and team lacked energy Saturday - right from the off. Maybe the crowd sensed it before a ball was kicked?

[boltonboris]

The issue there BWFCI is that the Jan signings haven't made an impact. The previous 2 seasons Jan has been critical in reinventing, reenergising and strengthening the starting XI - This time, we've beefed up the squad with less quality than our starting XI. The signings have simply not worked

Jerome looked ok, but Adeboyejo has been really disappointing
Shoretire shows glimpses, but often gets lost - Could have been booked about 12 times on Saturday - Think he needs more leadership and guidance around him and would rather see him between Lee and a striker in the 10 role

[Worthy4England]

We shouldn't rewrite history, though. Bruce lost plenty of big games in his career and never won a trophy. He could definitely lift players in his time here, but he failed to do the same at other clubs.

Sam lost his cup final with a fairly tepid display.

We've seen other big games we'd rather forget.

We should absolutely expect performances from this group, but if we are crap in the next two games it doesn't mean Evatt is shot as a manager.

I'd like to see the handbrake come off a bit and a couple of confident displays. I'll also be looking closely at Evatt and whether he's learnt to keep his emotions in check. You learn most from the tough runs and this, whilst not particularly bad at the minute, is a bit of a tough period. I remember when Sam went about 13 games without a league win and it started to get a bit tight in the post match. Then we won one and, as he said himself later, he got too carried away by it - we failed to win in the next 4. Sam said he'd have ended that run after about 5 games later in his career, but he didn't stay calm enough in some of the pre-match sessions and it transmitted to the players and snowballed.

We will learn a lot about this team in the next 10 games. Hopefully plenty of positives.

I think it's pretty easy to fall into the trap that all seasons are "like for like" when trying to make a comparison. If I use this season and Parky's promotion season - the league table is not really very like the one that Parky had in front of him, at the same juncture.

As a marginal aside, no one has won the division nor come second on 50% win rate in the last 10/11 years - albeit a few close by in the early and late 50's on average you probably need 60% (the team coming second averages 57%)

Direct comparison - we're 6 points fewer than Parky at the same number of games, scored 5 less and conceded 2 less - a few games back we were 2 points ahead. But the rest of the table bears little comparison between 2017 and 2023... On equal games as today's top 6, Sheff Weds are 9 points ahead of where Sheff U were. Plymouth are 10 in front of where Fleetwood were, Ipswich 10 in front of where we were, 4-6 are closer but there's still a minimum 5 point gap in favour of the table now, vs last time we were promoted. That's a higher win rate currently for Sheff Weds than any team that's won it since 2012 (it might still be higher than those prior to 2012, I just didn't go back that far) - Similarly Plymouth at 61% gets beaten by no other team since 2012 - although matched on a couple of years.

If the top teams are so far ahead of where they were in 2017, then sure it's going to be more difficult for a team in 6th to take points from them.

[BWFC_Insane]

The issue there BWFCI is that the Jan signings haven't made an impact. The previous 2 seasons Jan has been critical in reinventing, reenergising and strengthening the starting XI - This time, we've beefed up the squad with less quality than our starting XI. The signings have simply not worked

Jerome looked ok, but Adeboyejo has been really disappointing
Shoretire shows glimpses, but often gets lost - Could have been booked about 12 times on Saturday - Think he needs more leadership and guidance around him and would rather see him between Lee and a striker in the 10 role

Yeah entirely agree. That was exactly what I meant by the first time we've really been reliant on a core to get all the way through a season.

January was a worry at the time and that's how its played out. We sold Dapo who - we probably had little choice in doing it but his direct replacement is a kid - and not a 'bit more established Bradley type kid' but a kid who has basically years to go before you can really expect a contribution from them in mens football. Adeboyejo who I'd absolutely not write off and I do think has something - has to this point been very disappointing - sure he's had injuries - but he's played a number of games and as yet he's not someone I'm thinking 'yeah he's making a difference'. He's the one who was on a run at this level in double figures and had he come in and played well and helped Charles out - we could be looking at something. But he's looked a bit like he did at Barnsley. Which is worrying. To say the least.

Its a shame.

I will say though - on the positive side - there is room and time for Adeboyejo to get going this season. If he does and starts to look like a 20 goal per season man the whole picture changes. Not to pin it all on him but he's the only new signing I think who can really make that impact.

[Worthy4England]

The issue there BWFCI is that the Jan signings haven't made an impact. The previous 2 seasons Jan has been critical in reinventing, reenergising and strengthening the starting XI - This time, we've beefed up the squad with less quality than our starting XI. The signings have simply not worked

Jerome looked ok, but Adeboyejo has been really disappointing
Shoretire shows glimpses, but often gets lost - Could have been booked about 12 times on Saturday - Think he needs more leadership and guidance around him and would rather see him between Lee and a striker in the 10 role

Yeah entirely agree. That was exactly what I meant by the first time we've really been reliant on a core to get all the way through a season.

January was a worry at the time and that's how its played out. We sold Dapo who - we probably had little choice in doing it but his direct replacement is a kid - and not a 'bit more established Bradley type kid' but a kid who has basically years to go before you can really expect a contribution from them in mens football. Adeboyejo who I'd absolutely not write off and I do think has something - has to this point been very disappointing - sure he's had injuries - but he's played a number of games and as yet he's not someone I'm thinking 'yeah he's making a difference'. He's the one who was on a run at this level in double figures and had he come in and played well and helped Charles out - we could be looking at something. But he's looked a bit like he did at Barnsley. Which is worrying. To say the least.

Its a shame.

I will say though - on the positive side - there is room and time for Adeboyejo to get going this season. If he does and starts to look like a 20 goal per season man the whole picture changes. Not to pin it all on him but he's the only new signing I think who can really make that impact.

I think both are good points. It felt like we tried to strengthen in forward areas, but it's not translated so far. I think Shola started brightly, but teams soon cottoned on to not giving him room. I'm a bit mystified by Big Dan and Williams and as others have said Mbete looked solid enough for a young kid in defence, but struggles coming out of defence.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^ To me its clear Evatt wanted to use January to transition a bit and add power and pace. The problem with that is the players brought in are all struggling with how we play, especially the forwards. Who are all more used to quicker service. The way we are playing doesn't bring out the best in them, especially Ade. And the delivery out wide, we presumably hoped Williams would help with is compromised because our best delivery is John - who has other issues and RW hasn't yet shown the balance in his game or basic fitness to really warrant inclusion.

I come back to the fact that any striker who is mainly a box player (as Ade is) will struggle when delivery from our main outlet in Bradley is consistently abysmal and we don't really have a settled option the other side. As soon as we're trying to play back inside you see Ade look lost because its just not what he's used to and his triggers and movements are all set on an earlier ball into the box.

[GhostoftheBok]

If the top teams are so far ahead of where they were in 2017, then sure it's going to be more difficult for a team in 6th to take points from them.

The issue this season has been spending has often equalled performance, whereas in previous seasons many teams have spent big and underperformed.

Then you have the Derby issue, whereby teams are usually relegated from the Championship because they are crap on the pitch for one reason or another. Derby were relegated with a mid table team due to a points deduction.

Both Wednesday and Derby spent fortunes, by the standard of the league, because if they stay down they're in serious financial bother. The gamble is paying off for Wednesday, it may not for Derby. Even Plymouth outspent us in the summer and then invested again in January to maintain their pace.

The 5 teams above us have all spent more than we have, most by a distance. They also outspent us in the previous 2 seasons, so they started from a developed base. There are teams below us who spend more than we do and who we've beaten. At the start of the season Posh would have been considered a big game as a newly relegated side, we took 6 points off them. Same with Portsmouth, which was previously seen as a big game to play at this level and who have outspent us, we are evens with them this term in the league and we beat them in the cup.

So a lot of this "we can't beat the decent sides" is just shifting of goalposts. We're still getting the "We can't win against the physical sides" yet we've beaten Accy, Burton, Fleetwood etc - teams that before the season kicked off people said we'd struggle against because of the rough stuff. Those results get discounted though, because we didn't win well enough ("We ONLY beat Accy 3-2" was one prior to the semi, as though that didn't count).

We are beating sides this season that people said in preseason we'd be unable to beat. It's just that there's a spending-related gulf at the very top we've not had time to bridge yet. We are winning the kinds of games people said we never win, but now the cry is "Well, we haven't won ALL of them"...but even the top sides don't win them all.