No Pancakes please on Tuesday. Home v Accrington Tues, 25th Apr. 7.45.

[Worthy4England]

Yes and no, on budget. For arguments sake let's say we had the 7th largest playing and transfer budget - is the expectation still we get promoted just because our name is "Bolton Wanderers?"

I don't get the comparison to Parky, if you don't accept the comparison to Brucie. But what I would say, is there was a lot more prem/champo experience on show across people like Wheater, Vela, Clough, Spearing, Henry, Moxey, Madine, Alf etc. For me, that was a squad a lot more akin to a Champo squad than our current crop (whether I like the players or not) and that showed in the "wage budget"...If I boil it down a bit, Alf reached a much better level as a striker than maybe Dion will - that bit of guile paid dividends..

I don't recall watching the 2017 run-in, generally thinking "we're fcuking murdering these mon" - we had a great March, but all of the other post Christmas months were up and down...

When it comes down to it, if you want to find a stick to beat Evatt with, I'm sure there's plenty to go at.

[BWFC_Insane]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

[Worthy4England]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

In those accounts, Plymouth were carrying £7m cash, we've no idea whether they might have used any of it...Sheff Weds haven't yet published how far they've dropped from £20m the season prior, Peterborough have asked for an extension (but we know they were on ~£7m, 2 accounting cycles back, the year they got promoted.), Ipswich up at £15m.

Can you book the trend? For sure, but would you "expect" it?

[BWFC_Insane]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

In those accounts, Plymouth were carrying £7m cash, we've no idea whether they might have used any of it...Sheff Weds haven't yet published how far they've dropped from £20m the season prior, Peterborough have asked for an extension (but we know they were on ~£7m, 2 accounting cycles back, the year they got promoted.), Ipswich up at £15m.

Can you book the trend? For sure, but would you "expect" it?

Yeah sure. We'll find out next year what it looked like and I'm sure their wage bill increased - but then so will ours have.

I doubt that we are orders of magnitude different and I suspect we will still show higher wages than them overall.

[The_Gun]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

In those accounts, Plymouth were carrying £7m cash, we've no idea whether they might have used any of it...Sheff Weds haven't yet published how far they've dropped from £20m the season prior, Peterborough have asked for an extension (but we know they were on ~£7m, 2 accounting cycles back, the year they got promoted.), Ipswich up at £15m.

Can you book the trend? For sure, but would you "expect" it?

Yeah sure. We'll find out next year what it looked like and I'm sure their wage bill increased - but then so will ours have.

I doubt that we are orders of magnitude different and I suspect we will still show higher wages than them overall.

There are three clubs in this division, who, by any measure, are bigger than us. Using your logic, our expectation cannot be that we get promoted, right?

[BWFC_Insane]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

In those accounts, Plymouth were carrying £7m cash, we've no idea whether they might have used any of it...Sheff Weds haven't yet published how far they've dropped from £20m the season prior, Peterborough have asked for an extension (but we know they were on ~£7m, 2 accounting cycles back, the year they got promoted.), Ipswich up at £15m.

Can you book the trend? For sure, but would you "expect" it?

Yeah sure. We'll find out next year what it looked like and I'm sure their wage bill increased - but then so will ours have.

I doubt that we are orders of magnitude different and I suspect we will still show higher wages than them overall.

There are three clubs in this division, who, by any measure, are bigger than us. Using your logic, our expectation cannot be that we get promoted, right?

Eh? I'm saying that we can rightly point to Ipswich and Sheffield Weds to say they have much larger budgets and our chances of competing with them but we can't argue that about Plymouth who do look like winning automatic promotion. Its not all about budget. If it were Plymouth wouldn't be where they are.

[The_Gun]

You said that the expectation for Bolton Wanderers is we should be getting out of this division - why is that? Derby, Sheff Weds, and Ipswich are all bigger clubs than us, whilst there are several other clubs with bigger budgets, so why should the expectation for Bolton be that we leapfrog bigger/richer clubs?

[Prufrock]

Less than three years ago we were in league one with no manager and one player (two if you include Brocky).

I just find it mad that people can say they expected play offs (or top 8 or whatever) at the start of the year, spend all year saying they aren't up to it and then be disappointed when we get that.

As for if you thought top 6 and we finish 7th, fine that's disappointing, but how disappointing can it be, especially given we can finish at most 2 points off. Last year we finished 10 off.

Promoted to L1; upper midtable in L1; at worst just missing the play offs. It's clear progress. If we don't go up this year then I think it's reasonable to expect to challenge for the top two and play offs minimum next, but it's just madness to me to say x would be good at the start of the year and then x or nearly x is a disaster at the end.

And budgets, sure Plymouth have probably slightly achieved in their budget, hats off to them. They have had an extra year though. And your 4k a week say gets you a better player when you're an established L1 side than when you're not. I still think there's room there to improve on players who's contracts are lapsing or we move on for the same money.

[Worthy4England]

What do you mean "If you count Brocky?"

[Bertie Wooster]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

Isn't the £8M in the latest accounts all football / match day related staff, not just players wages - I would have thought that the player wage bill would have been nearer £5M-£6M (although I could be wrong).

I appreciate that the link below isn't the same financial year but it must be near to this ?
https://salarysport.com/football/sky-be ... wanderers/

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Five seasons at a glance:
* Relegated to the bottom division.
* Promoted in third place, partly thanks to Sarce.
* Lose Sarce to lower-division club; Finish midtable.
* Seek playoffs, finish seventh.
* Automatic promotion (almost certainly).

That’s what Plymouth have done…

[Worthy4England]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

Isn't the £8M in the latest accounts all football / match day related staff, not just players wages - I would have thought that the player wage bill would have been nearer £6M (although I could be wrong)

That's correct Bertie, so yup it'll be lower for pretty much every team)...

[BWFC_Insane]

The much-missed Ghost, who seemed to have the inside line, frequently said that Plymouth were outspending us on wages. Why do you suppose that Posh, who were Champo last season, aren't? (They're also below us, for now, in that dreaded 7th place – I assume that if they don't reach the play-offs, unlike fellow relegatees Barnsley and Derby, they'd see that as failure....)

Last accounts show our football wage bill just north of £8M plymouths just south of £6M.

Isn't the £8M in the latest accounts all football / match day related staff, not just players wages - I would have thought that the player wage bill would have been nearer £5M-£6M (although I could be wrong).

I appreciate that the link below isn't the same financial year but it must be near to this ?
https://salarysport.com/football/sky-be ... wanderers/

I believe on the football side the wages were over £9M as per accounts - the £8M figure is what Iles reported as being down to 'playing staff'.

As Worthy says if we take the accounts figure I believe its over £9M which is probably a better comparator.

[Prufrock]

What do you mean "If you count Brocky?"

I meant there was a question over whether he was a senior player or still a "kid".

Though it came across a little unkind

[Worthy4England]

Group was £9.1m but that's

130 management, admin and football players, so I suspect includes IE, all his team etc. - there's going to be a chunk on the management/admin team...
120 Hotel staff. Suspect there's a maybe a mill/mill and half? in here even if you just take minimum wage view...[insert your own guess]
134 matchday employees...This likely to be lower min wage * 4 hours * 27 (matches - just as a punt) - maybe 400k?

Most clubs report similar, but most don't have a hotel with 120 staff which puts a bigger dent in ours...

2021 was £6.5, which didn't include "matchday" because of COVID, same amount of hotel staff roughly and 10 less "footballing folks"...

You could see it being below £6m on footballers fairly easily...

Edit: forgot we had FVWL Football accounts too...So guess about hotel at £2m looks on the mark

£7.1m

52 players
120 Management and Admin
134 Matchday

I'd be surprised if we were above £6m on first team players out of that lot...

[BWFC_Insane]

Group was £9.1m but that's

130 management, admin and football players, so I suspect includes IE, all his team etc. - there's going to be a chunk on the management/admin team...
120 Hotel staff. Suspect there's a maybe a mill/mill and half? in here even if you just take minimum wage view...[insert your own guess]
134 matchday employees...This likely to be lower min wage * 4 hours * 27 (matches - just as a punt) - maybe 400k?

Most clubs report similar, but most don't have a hotel with 120 staff which puts a bigger dent in ours...

2021 was £6.5, which didn't include "matchday" because of COVID, same amount of hotel staff roughly and 10 less "footballing folks"...

You could see it being below £6m on footballers fairly easily...

Edit: forgot we had FVWL Football accounts too...So guess about hotel at £2m looks on the mark

£7.1m

52 players
120 Management and Admin
134 Matchday

I'd be surprised if we were above £6m on first team players out of that lot...

with the football department, comprising of 52 players, 120 management and administrative staff and 134 matchday staff, accounting for just over £8m, a jump of just over 44 per cent.

That’s according to the Bolton News.

That figure is the comparable I guess. Assuming they are correct.

[truewhite15]

I think there a couple here who can't see far past "hoof it to the big man", hence the continued references to Parky. Who did a great job, and improved us year on year - I'm fairly certain that was a fact used on numerous occasions to defend him against people wanting more expansive play. Who else has improved our finishing position year on year recently? Oh yeah. Evatt.

We aren't a bad side. I'd go so far as to say we're a very good League One side - you don't get to fifth in any table at this stage of the season through sheer dumb luck. But I don't think we're yet an excellent League One side, hence our dip in form over the last couple of months. I have every faith that Evatt can progress us further next term, whichever league we're in - and he's earned that faith through three successive very strong seasons.

Yes, there are improvements to be made. And I'm sure Evatt would be the first to admit that. And yes, there would be a touch of disappointment were we to miss out on the play-offs this time out, considering that we've been up there all season. But if you'd offered us 7th and a resounding cup final victory before a ball had been kicked, the majority (myself included) would have snapped your hand off. And I worry that if we did go up this time, we'd struggle a league above without a(nother) significant summer rebuild.

I guess what I'm saying is - it'll be reet. Panic fannies.

[DJBlu]

Five seasons at a glance:
* Relegated to the bottom division.
* Promoted in third place, partly thanks to Sarce.
* Lose Sarce to lower-division club; Finish midtable.
* Seek playoffs, finish seventh.
* Automatic promotion (almost certainly).

That’s what Plymouth have done…

Bravo sir.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think there a couple here who can't see far past "hoof it to the big man", hence the continued references to Parky. Who did a great job, and improved us year on year - I'm fairly certain that was a fact used on numerous occasions to defend him against people wanting more expansive play. Who else has improved our finishing position year on year recently? Oh yeah. Evatt.

We aren't a bad side. I'd go so far as to say we're a very good League One side - you don't get to fifth in any table at this stage of the season through sheer dumb luck. But I don't think we're yet an excellent League One side, hence our dip in form over the last couple of months. I have every faith that Evatt can progress us further next term, whichever league we're in - and he's earned that faith through three successive very strong seasons.

Yes, there are improvements to be made. And I'm sure Evatt would be the first to admit that. And yes, there would be a touch of disappointment were we to miss out on the play-offs this time out, considering that we've been up there all season. But if you'd offered us 7th and a resounding cup final victory before a ball had been kicked, the majority (myself included) would have snapped your hand off. And I worry that if we did go up this time, we'd struggle a league above without a(nother) significant summer rebuild.

I guess what I'm saying is - it'll be reet. Panic fannies.

More expansive football? We are 11 league goals behind the total in 16/17. The football we play is low scoring. I’m not really bothered about the style but the football we play is the worst I’ve ever watched at Bolton in terms of entertainment. Especially home games. It’s like watching paint dry it’s that dull.

I only really care about results but anyways.

I don’t think Evatt should be sacked but I do think if he can’t take us up next season (or this) the question should be asked as to whether he is capable of doing that or if like Phil Neal this is his ceiling. Without going up we won’t get the budget to grow so ultimately someone will need to find away with existing resources.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I’m not really bothered about the style but the football we play is the worst I’ve ever watched at Bolton in terms of entertainment. Especially home games. It’s like watching paint dry it’s that dull.

Do you genuinely believe that Evattball is worse than the abjectly ambitionless Parky tactics of his second and third season? Shipping 3 or more at home to Leeds, Boro, Brentford, Preston, Wolves, Sheffield United, Forest, Norwich – well I suppose at least there were goals for entertainment...

What got me more than the losses was the lack of ambition, though. Going to Burton for a crucial six-pointer and playing so defensively that he was forced to make a double change at half-time (2-0 down, made cock-all difference, didn't manage a shot on target all game). I mean, it's your right to believe what you like and indeed to like what you believe, and I'll defend your right to it, but that was honest-to-goodness as close as I've come in nearly 40 years to not wanting to watch my team.