The Real War of the Roses , the Play-Offs Part One, V Barnsley at home Sat 13th May 3-0 clock.

[nicholaldo]

That is, of course, if we don't lose any players to higher-division sides. I reckon the vultures might be circling for a couple of our players at least if we don't go up.

In that case you have money though. There isn’t a player we’ve got who I think is irreplaceable with a very decent offer.

Charles probably biggest task to replace the goals but also one I don’t see clubs the level above coming for. I don’t think his game is strong enough for that to really happen.

I'd agree on Charles - a good third tier centre forward but that's as high as his ceiling goes.

Trafford is probably as close to irreplaceable as it gets but of course he isn't ours.

Of all the players we have tied to a permanent contract, I think we could probably replace Toal but not nearly as cheaply.

[GhostoftheBok]

We'll be fine if we go up.

We need some more spark behind the strikers to lift them a level. The ball doesn't go through the lines often enough to create the chances forwards thrive on and there's not enough threat on goal from midfield to draw markers off the strikers.

Improvement behind the forwards will be how we kick on significantly in attack. We will maintain faith in the players we've been working on even if we're promoted. We will add another option in that department, but the significant impact will come elsewhere.

[BWFC_Insane]

We'll be fine if we go up.

We need some more spark behind the strikers to lift them a level. The ball doesn't go through the lines often enough to create the chances forwards thrive on and there's not enough threat on goal from midfield to draw markers off the strikers.

Improvement behind the forwards will be how we kick on significantly in attack. We will maintain faith in the players we've been working on even if we're promoted. We will add another option in that department, but the significant impact will come elsewhere.

I’ve seen your comments in the other thread and agree to an extent and disagree to some others.

But this one is a bit wide of the mark imo. You can create all you want but what we have up front is way off championship level and Charles our top scorer is questionable at best at that level (his touch is not there and probably misses too many) and the rest are far from proven at that level, indeed Adeboyejo was woeful up there. We will need a couple if we go up for sure.

[GhostoftheBok]

I’ve seen your comments in the other thread and agree to an extent and disagree to some others.

But this one is a bit wide of the mark imo. You can create all you want but what we have up front is way off championship level and Charles our top scorer is questionable at best at that level (his touch is not there and probably misses too many) and the rest are far from proven at that level, indeed Adeboyejo was woeful up there. We will need a couple if we go up for sure.

I'll take the positives.

We don't need to set the word alight if we go up, we just need to muddle along for a season whilst we sort ourselves out.

We definitely need to add plenty of quality in the summer, but I don't think if you look at our squad the strikers are the gaping issue if we go up. It's what's going on around them.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with that assessment. It's definitely a game of opinions thing until we see what happens. I think we have three forwards (Dion, Vik and Dan) who will be very good for us next season if we get the right lads in around them. Now if they don't do well next season I could use a cop out and say "Ah, but we didn't get the right lads in around them" and we could go back and forth - but in the end they either do enough or they don't.

If I'm spaffing money on the squad over the summer I'm not throwing most of my budget at a striker, I'm throwing it at a 10.

I'd say there's a none "game of opinions" argument to make here, though. Evatt spent 500-600k on Vik and that means Vik will play lots of football. Just as with other players where I said "He cost money, so he'll get games" that will be true for Adeboyejo. Whether fans think he's good enough or not (my own opinion is that he is, but again we can disagree there) I think the outlay will tell. I don't think we'll put a lot of money in there for a new player to replace a guy we've already spent (by our standards) a lot on.

[BWFC_Insane]

I’ve seen your comments in the other thread and agree to an extent and disagree to some others.

But this one is a bit wide of the mark imo. You can create all you want but what we have up front is way off championship level and Charles our top scorer is questionable at best at that level (his touch is not there and probably misses too many) and the rest are far from proven at that level, indeed Adeboyejo was woeful up there. We will need a couple if we go up for sure.

I'll take the positives.

We don't need to set the word alight if we go up, we just need to muddle along for a season whilst we sort ourselves out.

We definitely need to add plenty of quality in the summer, but I don't think if you look at our squad the strikers are the gaping issue if we go up. It's what's going on around them.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with that assessment. It's definitely a game of opinions thing until we see what happens. I think we have three forwards (Dion, Vik and Dan) who will be very good for us next season if we get the right lads in around them. Now if they don't do well next season I could use a cop out and say "Ah, but we didn't get the right lads in around them" and we could go back and forth - but in the end they either do enough or they don't.

If I'm spaffing money on the squad over the summer I'm not throwing most of my budget at a striker, I'm throwing it at a 10.

I'd say there's a none "game of opinions" argument to make here, though. Evatt spent 500-600k on Vik and that means Vik will play lots of football. Just as with other players where I said "He cost money, so he'll get games" that will be true for Adeboyejo. Whether fans think he's good enough or not (my own opinion is that he is, but again we can disagree there) I think the outlay will tell. I don't think we'll put a lot of money in there for a new player to replace a guy we've already spent (by our standards) a lot on.

I’m just going to have to hard disagree. The strikers we have fit and available now aren’t good enough for a league one side in a promotion race. Bar Charles. And as someone has said on here Charles is probably at his ceiling in league one.

We spent money on Adeboyejo and absolutely let’s see how he does BUT on the evidence so far it’s pretty bad news. First touch is atrocious, can’t press, has no real movement to speak of and is quite slow. I can see how he does well when you just lump it up at him and he’s got runners to work with, but it’s not exactly an Evatt game. He’s a lone striker who backs in but again we simply aren’t going to use that option unless Evatt changes the game plan entirely.

He could come good still for sure. But right now he can’t get in the side and that’s not good. I think him coming good enough for a level up would be a very big ask especially as he’s already been there and not impressed.

The fact we might have made a mistake is not a good reason to not sign a striker should we go up.

I can’t see Charles doing that well a level up. His touch isn’t good enough and his finishing probably isn’t either.

Nlundulu…Im not seeing it but again even if Evatt can get a player out of him you probably won’t be doing that whilst he’s expected to be scoring championship goals.

I’ve watched a lot of championship football and given we struggle for goals in this league it’s only going to be harder up there. Fewer chances, less openings…and the way we play…if you don’t have a really decent striker for the level up there I fear for us. I could see Ade or Nlundulu even doing a job if we were just a bang it in all the time side but the way we play against the better championship sides…not a chance for me.

You only need look at Barnsley and they were very comfortable against us. A lot of that was our midfield which simply was outplayed but still the championship would be that every week and we’d need considerably more goal threat up front.

[GhostoftheBok]

We'll see how it goes.

I wrote a longer post, but it boils down to stuff we've talked about before.

I think Evatt is confident he can get us to the Prem within the next few years and that players he currently has here can be part of that.

I also think Evatt believes Vik, Dan and Randy can all play important roles next season, whatever division we're in.

It'll pan out how it pans out, but we need some more lads in this summer who Evatt feels can play Prem Football within 5 years. For me the most important positions to get those lads in will be keeper, 10 and RWB.

[BWFC_Insane]

A hypothetical Evatt believes is not necessarily the reality.

I will say now that in the unlikely event we do go up that strike force will be woefully inadequate and I’m 100% confident Evatt already knows that.

[GhostoftheBok]

A hypothetical Evatt believes is not necessarily the reality.

I will say now that in the unlikely event we do go up that strike force will be woefully inadequate and I’m 100% confident Evatt already knows that.

If we go up then the squad is relatively weaker than if we don't, naturally. You'd imagine we'd have some variation in targets based on which division we're in, but that won't be true in all cases and we've not given Vik that long a contract and paid that much for him just to bin him off after 6 months. We plan to be in the Championship with him as a key part of the squad. The money tells you that very clearly. When we signed him Evatt believed we had a good shot at promotion, so he clearly saw Vik as Championship player.

Likewise, all the noises are we want Dan to stay regardless of which division we're in. We don't have to sign him.

So we're in the play-offs courting one player, have given another a long deal whilst hoping to go up and the other is our top scorer...but you think Evatt views them as woefully inadequate if we go up.

I think I'm forced to disagree.

[Prufrock]

I don't think it's certain Dion can do it a league up, but I'm more confident than some. Plenty strikers score goals there by having a bit of pace and being busy. He'd also get more room in behind.

Vik is a weird one. His best games so far have come without Charles, at the moment they're too similar. Got a summer to work on that though.

Nlundulu looked like a complete donkey early doors, but he's looked a lot better in the last few weeks. If he can hook it up he's got everything to play at a very high level.

[BWFC_Insane]

A hypothetical Evatt believes is not necessarily the reality.

I will say now that in the unlikely event we do go up that strike force will be woefully inadequate and I’m 100% confident Evatt already knows that.

If we go up then the squad is relatively weaker than if we don't, naturally. You'd imagine we'd have some variation in targets based on which division we're in, but that won't be true in all cases and we've not given Vik that long a contract and paid that much for him just to bin him off after 6 months. We plan to be in the Championship with him as a key part of the squad. The money tells you that very clearly. When we signed him Evatt believed we had a good shot at promotion, so he clearly saw Vik as Championship player.

Likewise, all the noises are we want Dan to stay regardless of which division we're in. We don't have to sign him.

So we're in the play-offs courting one player, have given another a long deal whilst hoping to go up and the other is our top scorer...but you think Evatt views them as woefully inadequate if we go up.

I think I'm forced to disagree.

We haven’t scored enough goals at this level so it’s a weakness already. It’s not about binning people off it’s about having the quality required. I hope it’s a problem we have but if it is I’m confident they will address it or by January it will look tough.

If we go up our strongest area is the back three.

[GhostoftheBok]

It’s not about binning people off it’s about having the quality required.

I understand your view, but do you really think Evatt thinks Adeboyejo isn't good enough to play in the Championship?

Evatt clearly believed we could go up when he signed Vik for half a million and gave him our longest-running contract.

Then there's Dan, who we don't have to sign but we are apparently actively pursuing whilst in the play-offs.

If Evatt knows these lads are woefully inadequate for the division we might well be in next season, what's going on?

[BWFC_Insane]

It’s not about binning people off it’s about having the quality required.

I understand your view, but do you really think Evatt thinks Adeboyejo isn't good enough to play in the Championship?

Evatt clearly believed we could go up when he signed Vik for half a million and gave him our longest-running contract.

Then there's Dan, who we don't have to sign but we are apparently actively pursuing whilst in the play-offs.

If Evatt knows these lads are woefully inadequate for the division we might well be in next season, what's going on?

I mean biggest game of the season in league one and he didn’t pick either of them. Which is pretty telling.

But again it’s different thinking you can turn someone into a player and thinking you’ve got enough up front when you go up when you haven’t scored enough goals as it is.

Evatt isn’t silly he knows the score and the quality gap. It’s also sometimes the case that signings don’t work out and Vic may be in that category. If Evatt believes he can turn him into a championship level striker that is good but so far we’ve seen no evidence of that.

I don’t want a summer of arguing about hypothetical Evatt thinks this stuff. We will need to strengthen in key areas if we go up and one of those is up front because it’s clear as day we’ve struggled for goals this season and our threat up top is a bit limited.

[LeverEnd]

With Adeboyejo, I can't see what he brings so far, but he got goals in a struggling team. What did they give him that we're not? Anyone know what he thrived on and where his goals came from?
I could go and look at Burton highlights but can't be arsed!! Although it wouldn't take long I imagine.

[Worthy4England]

I suspect the "Evatt thinks this stuff" and who we sign in the summer is probably fairly closely linked, whether you want the summer arguing about it or not!

I doubt we're in the position whereby we could just trash a three year contract (in the case of Vic) - and if he's been given three years then I think it's likely because Evatt has a high degree of confidence that he can get value out of the signing on the pitch. You'd also have to assume, that Vic's been given three years on the basis that in Evatt's mind, at some point we'd make it to the Champo. Similar if we retain Bod (which I think we will) and/or sign N'lundulu.

Many of our signings have been written off after not very long, including our leading scorer who was pub league back in October. The January window hasn't given us the lift we were looking for this campaign, but overall, it didn't harm us either. Whether we think we need X, Y or Z, Evatt will do what he thinks necessary - I think we'd agree he's seen enough of January's intake, in training, to make those calls.

The people who have been asserted as not L1 quality this season have included Bradley (PoTY, PPoTY, YPotY), Santos, Iredale, Dempsey, Morley, Sheehan, Kacha and Charles (they're the ones I recall off the top of my head), from a team that finished 5th.

After that - to quote the gaffer - "you've got to trust the process"

[GhostoftheBok]

With Adeboyejo, I can't see what he brings so far, but he got goals in a struggling team. What did they give him that we're not? Anyone know what he thrived on and where his goals came from?
I could go and look at Burton highlights but can't be arsed!! Although it wouldn't take long I imagine.

Simple answer is delivery into the box from wide areas. Teams find Vik really difficult to deal with inside the box, because of his power (and his movement being pretty good). For Burton he scored a couple of crackers, but mostly it was a case of the ball coming into the box and defenders not being able to cope with him.

He's been less willing to have a dip here. Whether that's instructions or confidence I don't know, but equally we don't hit angles as often as Burton.

Who has to adapt to whom and how much I don't know. That's up to Evatt. We've seen with City and Haaland that both sides have changed what they do to suit one another. That's pretty normal with strikers.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^Arguing what Evatt may or may not think is a bit pointless because we will never know. We’ve all watched these strikers - do we have a forward line good enough for the championship as it stands. I’m very very confident the answer to that is no. If someone wants to make a case we do then that’s great. Using the evidence in front of us. Evatt signed Vic sure. He signed lots. As with anything the question is less - does Evatt think he can develop and do a job in the long run versus would this 4 have a chance in the league above next season - the questions aren’t the same. The answers aren’t the same. Could Vic do a job? Maybe. But for me it would not change the fact we’d need some better options or at least one up front to have a chance.

[BWFC_Insane]

With Adeboyejo, I can't see what he brings so far, but he got goals in a struggling team. What did they give him that we're not? Anyone know what he thrived on and where his goals came from?
I could go and look at Burton highlights but can't be arsed!! Although it wouldn't take long I imagine.

Simple answer is delivery into the box from wide areas. Teams find Vik really difficult to deal with inside the box, because of his power (and his movement being pretty good). For Burton he scored a couple of crackers, but mostly it was a case of the ball coming into the box and defenders not being able to cope with him.

He's been less willing to have a dip here. Whether that's instructions or confidence I don't know, but equally we don't hit angles as often as Burton.

Who has to adapt to whom and how much I don't know. That's up to Evatt. We've seen with City and Haaland that both sides have changed what they do to suit one another. That's pretty normal with strikers.

I think the thing with Vic is he needs service and needs it early. It’s no good letting defences get set he needs the ball into the box early.

The other thing with him to keep in mind is this is the only season he’s come close to hitting double figures. So we aren’t talking about someone necessarily proven that I’d say we should fit our game round.

If he is to prosper we need much better crossers of the ball out wide - Bradley is lots of things but his delivery is dreadful. Williams doesn’t to me look like a natural deliverer of the sort of service Ade will profit from either tbh.

He also does not play well with Dion.

[Worthy4England]

^^Arguing what Evatt may or may not think is a bit pointless because we will never know. We’ve all watched these strikers - do we have a forward line good enough for the championship as it stands. I’m very very confident the answer to that is no. If someone wants to make a case we do then that’s great. Using the evidence in front of us. Evatt signed Vic sure. He signed lots. As with anything the question is less - does Evatt think he can develop and do a job in the long run versus would this 4 have a chance in the league above next season - the questions aren’t the same. The answers aren’t the same. Could Vic do a job? Maybe. But for me it would not change the fact we’d need some better options or at least one up front to have a chance.

I'd say arguing what Evatt may or may not think, is no less pointless than arguing what you or I think who don't get a real world vote (probably for the best ), who don't know "the cunning plan" and aren't responsible for the team, the transfer budget etc.

I'm with you on what we've seen so far. I wasn't sat there, on Saturday, thinking "one of these will come on and change the game" - I mean even less so than Sads, Baka, King Arthur, Dapo etc. I'm actually not too concerned about it at the minute. August should tell us whether any magic fairy dust has worked with them...

[BWFC_Insane]

^^Arguing what Evatt may or may not think is a bit pointless because we will never know. We’ve all watched these strikers - do we have a forward line good enough for the championship as it stands. I’m very very confident the answer to that is no. If someone wants to make a case we do then that’s great. Using the evidence in front of us. Evatt signed Vic sure. He signed lots. As with anything the question is less - does Evatt think he can develop and do a job in the long run versus would this 4 have a chance in the league above next season - the questions aren’t the same. The answers aren’t the same. Could Vic do a job? Maybe. But for me it would not change the fact we’d need some better options or at least one up front to have a chance.

I'd say arguing what Evatt may or may not think, is no less pointless than arguing what you or I think who don't get a real world vote (probably for the best ), who don't know "the cunning plan" and aren't responsible for the team, the transfer budget etc.

I'm with you on what we've seen so far. I wasn't sat there, on Saturday, thinking "one of these will come on and change the game" - I mean even less so than Sads, Baka, King Arthur, Dapo etc. I'm actually not too concerned about it at the minute. August should tell us whether any magic fairy dust has worked with them...

Yeah that's my point - in the now Vic, Dan Kacha aren't really good enough for a side in league one play offs. Or at least they certainly aren't showing they are able to score goals at this sort of level on a regular basis.

I think its possible that Evatt can mould Vic or Dan or even both but I'd argue that won't be to hit the ground running a league up. I can see the logic more with Dan who has barely played any football - has raw ingredients that could be moulded into a striker of value - but it'll take time and not be something we'd be starting the season with I wouldn't have thought.

I'm not too concerned as I think we probably won't be going up and then the question is a bit different down here. Its whether we keep Bod or replace him and what we do to replace Kacha (I suspect will go) and Shoretire. For me I'd abandon a number 10 idea strengthen at number 8 and get another striker. But we'll see what Evatt has in mind.

[Worthy4England]

I'm not sure the division we're in will have quite as much impact as you think it shall. I doubt we'd be able to "just unload" Vic, certainly, because everything we're hearing is money is tight. We can't afford, like in the days of Eddie, to have players that don't work. I also don't think we'd just go lets spend proper cash vs let's give it a go and pocket some cash to reinvest...

FWIW, I think he'll keep Bod and whatever we think about Kacha's likelihood of bagging goals, we've all seen, as you say, with our own eyes, that Evatt thinks he's often worth his place for something else - press and stretching the defence. Shortire obvs isn't ours anyhow. I thought we needed a 10 in Jan, Evatt thought Shortire might fill that gap, we still need a 10 for me. We need enough balls going into the right places from both WB's, the 8's when they transition to attack, and preferably across the 10, too.