We shall not be moved. Play-off away to Barnsley,Fri, 19th May, 20-00

[BWFC_Insane]

Historically, I see Barnsley and Rotherham as similar sized clubs to us, so I don't want to see them doing better

Bloody hell, DSB. There's humility and then there's chronic self-esteem issues.

BWFC the same size as Barnsley and Rotherham? It's like Andre the Giant wondering if he's taller than Peter Dinklage.

1 FA Cup between them. Their average attendance added together only just beats ours.

Yeah this. I choked when I read it.

I’m not massively into who is the bigger club but Barnsley and Rotherham are at least a tier below. If not several.

Rotherham took 12,000 fans to their papa johns trophy final last year. We took 35,000. It’s not even close.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Historically, I see Barnsley and Rotherham as similar sized clubs to us, so I don't want to see them doing better

Bloody hell, DSB. There's humility and then there's chronic self-esteem issues.

BWFC the same size as Barnsley and Rotherham? It's like Andre the Giant wondering if he's taller than Peter Dinklage.

1 FA Cup between them. Their average attendance added together only just beats ours.

Sorry, “historically” was the wrong word, or badly explained. I meant in my personal football-watching history, starting from the mid-80s, when Rotherham and Huddersfield were often our division-mates, and Barnsley were usually a division (or two) above - but similar attendances, similar grounds (then), similar towns and fans.

Sure, we’ve had some better times since. (We’ve also had worse.) But I still see them as similar clubs, to me, partly because these early impressions are hard to shake, but also because frankly right now we are. There’s a group of say eight that’s good in this division but have a lot to prove if/when in the Champo. I’d put us in that mini-division with the Tykes.

So yeah, by “historically” I meant “personally”, cos history is a long old thing. Self-declaring massiveness based on cups won before Lennon met McCartney (and three of the four before their respective parents met)? Not for me, Manish.

[Worthy4England]

Fcuk me? Someone's spent too much time in Barnet. I could almost see the case for "where we are," but never for where we've been.

We are the White Horse finalists, the Lion of Vienna, Ian Greaves Super White Army (and Bruce Rioch's), Beat Atleti, had Worthy Djorkaeff, Campo. What the actual feck.? Rotherham and Barnsley are nothing. Nothing like us. Get a grip.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Fcuk me? Someone's spent too much time in Barnet. I could almost see the case for "where we are," but never for where we've been.

We are the White Horse finalists, the Lion of Vienna, Ian Greaves Super White Army (and Bruce Rioch's), Beat Atleti, had Worthy Djorkaeff, Campo. What the actual feck.? Rotherham and Barnsley are nothing. Nothing like us. Get a grip.

Aye, fair, we have a storied ancient history. We won a badly organised fa cup final a century ago. We had a brave England international 70 years ago. We won promotions decades ago. Signed some players who’d been famous. All good stuff. All part of our story. I love them all. I’m sure other clubs have their own stories, and such pissing contests bore me - I’m not one for getting a grip on a willy to waggle. But if I’ve upset you, as I seem to have done, I apologise. Hope BWFCi’s not still choking.

[Worthy4England]

Not upset DSB, but struggling to recall when Rotherham and Barnsley have ever had most or any of those things? The fact you can't remember Ian Greaves and I never saw Nat Lofthouse doesn't mean they didn't happen. If you want to ignore all our history and cut stuff down to the last 10 years, have at it, my friend. I mean football only started with the EPL in 199(1?), so you probably need to forget the bits you saw in the 80's...

For me these are not statements of "massiveness." Just facts...

[GhostoftheBok]

Barnsley are "bigger" than Rotherham. So just dealing with them, even in their "successful" period since the turn of the millennium they've never been more than a League One to Champ yoyo club. They had that one Prem season in the late 90s when we were both crap in that division together, but generally it's been "Yay, we're too good for League One!" to "Oh no, the Championship is too much for us" over and over.

In their "amazing run of Championship seasons" as one Barnsley fan I know put it the other day, their highest finish was 17th.

We are at Barnsley's normal/iffy level when we're really on our uppers and at their "amazing" level when we're just struggling a bit.

We can say it's hubris, or living on past glories; but we've not been comparable over anyone's adult lifetime. In modern history we've been in real financial difficulty for two periods either side of Eddie, but all things being equal there's at least a full division between the two clubs. In between those periods we've been at a reputational level they have never reached...but we have before and likely will again.

[BWFC_Insane]

I will say it’s a bit of a pointless competition though. Bolton are a far bigger club imho than Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton.

But that counts for zero right now.

[Worthy4England]

I will say it’s a bit of a pointless competition though. Bolton are a far bigger club imho than Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton.

But that counts for zero right now.

Not really sure why it's "controversial" as much as I'm no fan of the red shite, they are a bigger Club. I don't have a problem with that notion, just makes it all the sweeter when we beat them, fairly occasionally...

[Prufrock]

I mean I think DSB is pretty clear it's a vibes based comparison, so you know fair enough.

On the other hand, the strong armed, thick headed, red wearing, tin pot bastards have a combined single top flight season between them ever. So fck that !

[Worthy4England]

I mean I think DSB is pretty clear it's a vibes based comparison, so you know fair enough.

On the other hand, the strong armed, thick headed, red wearing, tin pot bastards have a combined single top flight season between them ever. So fck that !

They're from Yorkshire FFS!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

For sure, it's a vibes-based thing. And it doesn't mean I like them, the Yorkie twunts - very far from it. Maybe it's easier on the mind's ear if I describe them as rivals rather than similar.

Are we "bigger" (whatever the hell that means) than Coventry and Luton, one of whom will be top-tier next season? As BWFCi notes, can we piss further up the wall than the three B-teams currently safely in the Prem - Brentford, Brighton and Bournemouth? What does that mean? At what point do they grow and we shrink? At what point do we stop being judged by trophies won before Hitler came to power? How are Blackburn Olympic getting on these days?

I dunno. I'm reading an interesting (if overlong and repetitive) book at the moment - Rule, Nostalgia: A Backwards History of Britain. It's an interesting concept, a reverse chronology analysing the history of nostalgia (originally an illness - -algia from the Greek for pain, as in neuralgia and fibromyalgia) through our nation's history from Brexit back half a millennium opf longing for an illusory Elysium. Perhaps that affected my thinking.

We are where we've been, true, but we're also where we're going. Not sure players thinking of joining us are overly swayed by the dusty pots in the cupboard and fading photos opn the wall. Put it this way, would a hotshot left wingback being chased by Rotherham, Barnsley and us be bothered about John McGinlay?

[Worthy4England]

I think some yes and some no. But then again, John McG isn't who I'd put in front of them to paint the journey. He's not the high bar, however much we love him. I don't think it's ever likely to be the deciding factor, but on a close call, maybe a differentiator. You could absolutely argue that in the here and now, Rotherham are one notch up. Barnsley were and may be again. But the management team ain't selling the here and now, they're selling the road trip, and on that, I think we have an advantage...

[Bertie Wooster]

We are where we've been, true, but we're also where we're going. Not sure players thinking of joining us are overly swayed by the dusty pots in the cupboard and fading photos opn the wall. Put it this way, would a hotshot left wingback being chased by Rotherham, Barnsley and us be bothered about John McGinlay?

No it would likely be wages, hence my questions about can we afford better quality players as we are going to have to offer better wages to get better players.

[GhostoftheBok]

We are where we've been, true, but we're also where we're going. Not sure players thinking of joining us are overly swayed by the dusty pots in the cupboard and fading photos opn the wall.

It 100% does sway people.

The main driver of football transfers is always money, but money being equal players absolutely care about prestige.

I've had to sell the club to players/staff before (albeit a long time ago now) and the heritage of the club absolutely mattered to them.

Being able to put on a Bolton Wanderers shirt and say "I play for Bolton Wanderers" matters to players much more than doing the same for Barnsley or Rotherham. Not enough to overcome a decent wedge of money, because why would it...but as a straight choice between us and (as a specific example) Crystal Palace we were an easy choice.

Football is selfish. How much will they pay me? What will they do for my career? Those are the real questions. For the second one the club name and the badge are really important. Dietmar Hamann chose us over a rival club who offered slightly more money, because of the club's prestige. He then immediately wanted out when a big contract was thrown at him. So it matters, but not enough sometimes.

As a more recent example, Ian Evatt wouldn't be at Barnsley or Rotherham talking about how he's taking them to the very top of the game. Nobody who goes to those clubs does so dreaming of playing Premier League football wearing that shirt. Players are coming here believing we can be a vehicle that takes them all the way to the top. That's not because people are inspired by "Auntie Shazza"...it's (to quote a phrase) football heritage.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think this is where finance and the football model is distorted. You could argue twenty years ago players would far rather join a big club like Bolton in league one on the up than say Rotherham a league up or even a Bournemouth scraping premiership survival.

But the huge financial gap between leagues renders that a bit moot. Even if we have huge room to grow and attendances that dwarf those clubs - it doesn’t bridge the huge financial gap.

We then have of course owners who can subsidise for hundreds of thousands of fans at clubs…rendering size, scale and potential partially moot too.

I’m pretty sure the only way we see the premiership again in our lifetimes is if another Eddie Davies rocks up. Someone with enough money to not mind throwing 100M plus into a black hole because they love Bolton wanderers so much.

[TANGODANCER]

Whoa, whoa, put the mead flagons down and chill folks.

Everybody, that's every single club, from the Premier League championship kings to the smallest giant killing no division heroes, has their day in the sun. Metaphorically speaking, Bolton is healthily tanned by that measure. Did your Barnsleys etc ever become the first team to beat the mighty Red Star Belgrade on their own ground, force an away draw against Bayern Munich, beat Athletico Madrid , beat Manchester United at Wembley and have that previously mentioned four F.A.Cups to their name and be beaten finalists a further three times? No sir/madam, they did not.

Let the Tykes enjoy their soon to be forgotten moment of glory; we have other things to concern us.

[Worthy4England]

We are where we've been, true, but we're also where we're going. Not sure players thinking of joining us are overly swayed by the dusty pots in the cupboard and fading photos opn the wall. Put it this way, would a hotshot left wingback being chased by Rotherham, Barnsley and us be bothered about John McGinlay?

No it would likely be wages, hence my questions about can we afford better quality players as we are going to have to offer better wages to get better players.

Think we're all hoping yes, Bertie. In one of Evatt's pressers, he did say he would be being backed by the Board over the summer - bit we don't know is the "how much." I think I also recall him saying he wasn't splurging every shekel we got in January, in January...

[Prufrock]

I suspect in a straight choice your average player this summer would likely choose Rotherham over us (division up and not unrelated more money) and Barnsley if they go up for the same reasons. If they don't, I think it would take a fair amount of wedge (which they might be willing to throw at a particular player) to persuade them to go to Barnsley over us.

It's not history per se, they aren't picking Old Etonians over either, but ceiling (which has some correlation with history).

If you were a footballer with the world at his feet and had to choose between Man City (best club side in the world, one if the best managers in history, let's say you'd also be rejoing a couple of old pals and could live an hour away from where you grew up) or Real Madrid (just spanked by that City team, likely to be a new manager, just finished miles behind a bang average Barca team, lots of their best players well the wrong side of 30, don't speak the language, admittedly much nicer weather) who do you pick?

Looks like Bellingham is going to pick Madrid and one of the reasons apparently is that he sees City as "plastic". Now not everyone makes the same decision, and to me it's a bit thick. But it's not nothing. And as far as it is something in that sense we're clearly "bigger" than those two (Barnsley and Rotherham, not City and Madrid !)

But then I get the nostalgia element. It seeps through all the coverage of Forest for example. They were massive when all the journos were kids so you start seeing it bleed into weird chat about their "rightful place" in the top flight.

Ultimately sport is a meritocracy.

[Worthy4England]

City and Sheffield managed to take fewer to Wembley than Plymouth and us. Tin Pot bastards!

And we can point to a couple who preferred us to Madrid...that dude who said RM didn't fear City because they're not "Crystal Palace" was spot on. Palace managed 5-2 over their two City games...

[GhostoftheBok]

The Forest example is a good one, in terms of the club being sellable to newcomers. When a lot of people in the media were kids Forest were winning stuff, so they are still a huge club (or a "sleeping giant") when they get written about.

However, the name Nottingham Forest didn't sway players as much because when the PLAYERS were kids Forest weren't doing much, so the name meant less to them. What got players to Forest was money from a new owner.

We were in the Prem and getting lots of press when a lot of currently players were kids, so we are still attractive above and beyond clubs with similar budgets at this level. If we're still in League One or Two ten years from now with a rusty stadium that won't be the case.