Can we be Imp-erious this season? Lincoln, H, 05/08

[Prufrock]

I agree though in fairness one of those was his fault in the first place (I think) in that he'd played him on. But yeah he was excellent both ways. More of that please!

[TANGODANCER]

Must be me, but I find the term "resale value" somewhat distressing when w're trying to rebuild a solid side. At least we know where we are with our club and squad; let's concentrate on winning games . The crazy transfer fees and wages should be a lesson in what top-end football has become. Players are nothing more then auction items with values decided by investors. None of these things will help us when the going gets tough, as we very well know from experience.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Iredale:
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... ke-chance/

It's so important to be good on set pieces as well as being good with the ball. With due respect to Lincoln, they were probably looking to come here and catch us on the counter, so if you are playing against teams who are going to make it difficult like that then you need to find different ways to score goals. One way is to be strong on set pieces. We made them have to change their gameplan, and then you saw with the third goal, it is exactly what happened.

Hirdy (first team coach Sam Hird) works really hard on set pieces and before every game we go through them – we have slideshows on them, they are up on the board, everyone knows their roles and responsibilities.

Have to say I was underwhelmed with the appointment of Hird - felt a little "jobs for the boys" - but thankfully it's looking like I was wrong. Since he arrived set pieces have been getting better (Lennon: "Can't get much worse"), and we have also developed a defensive solidity which doesn't appear dependent on personnel. So, hats off. And keep it going.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

[GhostoftheBok]

...we have also developed a defensive solidity which doesn't appear dependent on personnel.

Depth helps.

Johnston gets injured for a year, but we still have Iredale - who is superb for the level.

Toal is injured, but the vice captain steps in. If we lose another Forrester is there as a top talent. Ashworth can come in if needed.

The fact is we defend as a team and it's that holistic approach (the one so many fans deride) that allows us to switch players in and out. We press and we keep the ball.

As a result, our defence has much less to do. It's hard for a team to hurt you when they only have the ball 30% of the time and they spend most of that in their own half trying to evade your pressing.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

...we have also developed a defensive solidity which doesn't appear dependent on personnel.

Depth helps.

Johnston gets injured for a year, but we still have Iredale - who is superb for the level.

Toal is injured, but the vice captain steps in. If we lose another Forrester is there as a top talent. Ashworth can come in if needed.

It helps, sure. Helps an awful lot. But the fact we could switch MJ there so seamlessly is credit to all (including MJ) and suggests the unit is well-drilled, as it was in Parkinsonian times.

[GhostoftheBok]

It helps, sure. But the fact we could switch MJ there so seamlessly is credit to all (including MJ) and suggests the unit is well-drilled, as it was in Parkinsonian times.

Yup. This is one of the best-coached teams I've ever seen as a Wanderers fan.

Everyone knows their job and nobody is asked to do too much.

It's one of the reasons John and Sads are bad for the team. Their unwillingness to do what's required overloads their teammates.

[Mar]

It helps, sure. But the fact we could switch MJ there so seamlessly is credit to all (including MJ) and suggests the unit is well-drilled, as it was in Parkinsonian times.

Yup. This is one of the best-coached teams I've ever seen as a Wanderers fan.

Everyone knows their job and nobody is asked to do too much.

It's one of the reasons John and Sads are bad for the team. Their unwillingness to do what's required overloads their teammates.

Perhaps you're right. Weve seen how effective Sadlier is at scoring or assisting but is that against the expectations of the manager, is his decision making not in line with our usual tactical linkup patterns. Like Chris Eagles shooting at the slightest chance, gives away possession a lot and causes more issues than it solves sort of thing.

Same thing with John. I get the impression he was signed to be that attacking outlet and it just hasn't worked out. Not saying its failed, just that the output expected from a player with Premiership experience doesn't align up with expectations from a League 2 side and hasn't lined up with us now were in league one. Massively overshadowed by Fossey, Kioso, Bradley and now likely to be overshadowed by JDC.

There is an argument to say were not playing to their strengths but I think in this squad you've got to be able to do something well (attack) and be reasonable with the other (defensive support). I suspect Iredales the opposite, defend well and reasonable from an attacking pov.

Still no matter how critical we can be of John, he got the ball rolling into the cup final with that cross for Dempseys goal. So there's always that

[BWFC_Insane]

It helps, sure. But the fact we could switch MJ there so seamlessly is credit to all (including MJ) and suggests the unit is well-drilled, as it was in Parkinsonian times.

Yup. This is one of the best-coached teams I've ever seen as a Wanderers fan.

Everyone knows their job and nobody is asked to do too much.

It's one of the reasons John and Sads are bad for the team. Their unwillingness to do what's required overloads their teammates.

Perhaps you're right. Weve seen how effective Sadlier is at scoring or assisting but is that against the expectations of the manager, is his decision making not in line with our usual tactical linkup patterns. Like Chris Eagles shooting at the slightest chance, gives away possession a lot and causes more issues than it solves sort of thing.

Same thing with John. I get the impression he was signed to be that attacking outlet and it just hasn't worked out. Not saying its failed, just that the output expected from a player with Premiership experience doesn't align up with expectations from a League 2 side and hasn't lined up with us now were in league one. Massively overshadowed by Fossey, Kioso, Bradley and now likely to be overshadowed by JDC.

There is an argument to say were not playing to their strengths but I think in this squad you've got to be able to do something well (attack) and be reasonable with the other (defensive support). I suspect Iredales the opposite, defend well and reasonable from an attacking pov.

Still no matter how critical we can be of John, he got the ball rolling into the cup final with that cross for Dempseys goal. So there's always that

The issue with both is workrate off the ball. They don’t do the defensive work that Evatt likes. I think in Sadlier’s case it’s less about willingness and more he just isn’t that sort of player. And in John’s case I think it’s probably a combination of engine and desire. Not everyone can be the sort of wing back Evatt demands. John maybe can but certainly doesn’t have the engine naturally to do it.

But going forwards both are very good. John was the main man in league two I’m not sure he was overshadowed by anyone and people were desperate to sign him for the next season.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Still no matter how critical we can be of John, he got the ball rolling into the cup final with that cross for Dempseys goal. So there's always that

John's a good player going forward. In Evatt's first L1 season he got 7 assists, IIRC none of them from corners. Evatt was also giving him enhanced tactical instructions - I particularly remember him encouraging him to cut inside and act as a 'floating 10' - at Gillingham, for instance, he cut the defence to ribbons doing that.

The problem is the one you describe, Mar – Evatt's players have to be able to do both sides of it. Prufrock noted early that Dec flies forward and ambles back. Evatt, standing next to him for half the game, can't have missed it. And team-mates have berated him for it. Same with Sadlier.

Lack of trackback isn't just lazy and annoying, it's dangerous - leaves us wide open. To dip back again to Evatt's first L1 season, he'd inverted the midfield triangle from "two behind one" to "one behind two" after buying Sheehan, and we leaked goals – partly because the fullbacks (which ended up being John and either Isgrove or Liam Gordon, after Geth got injured) were too high up the pitch and MJ was never fast enough to cover the full width. Teams clocked that and we were crucified on turnovers, which is part of the reason we switched back to wingbacks - to cover for the defensive shortcomings of John and, by that point, Fossey while trying to maximise their attacking output.

We'll never have players who are 10/10 in all departments, but I think the manager doesn't want anyone who seems either unwilling or unable to try "the other side"... especially in a key position like wingback. He must look at Randell - a proper winger, but diving back defending like his life depends on it - and despair of those who can't or won't do the same.

EDIT Crosspost with BWFCi, saying several similar things - and yeah, all were chuffed when we made his L2 loan permanent after promotion.

[boltonboris]

Numerous times we saw a pass down Randell's side between him and the LCB on Saturday and he clocked it and won every footrace to ensure they didn't profit from it. It was something Lincoln had worked on and didn't work for them because or RW's desire and pace

As much as I like Declan John from a standalone ability point of view, it could and probably would have cost us if he was there on Saturday instead

[BWFC_Insane]

Numerous times we saw a pass down Randell's side between him and the LCB on Saturday and he clocked it and won every footrace to ensure they didn't profit from it. It was something Lincoln had worked on and didn't work for them because or RW's desire and pace

As much as I like Declan John from a standalone ability point of view, it could and probably would have cost us if he was there on Saturday instead

Yep this. I like John - a lot. And I acknowledge he's obviously less 'keen' to do the backtracking. I do think he's not a 'natural wingback' in the sense that I don't think he's really got that blistering pace and engine for it. You can see that JDC does have it for example - naturally. He still has to work hard and I still agree with those who say John could do more. But I think he's more an overlapping full back who times his runs more than an out and out wing back.

In the same was as I think its complete folly to expect someone with Iredale's build and physique to play a wing back role - lad is obviously not going to be comfortable there.

[brommers95]

The problem we have with Dec John is that while he won’t be on mega bucks, he’ll still be on a decent wedge (minimum £3kpw) making it hard to shift him on to another team.

Not many teams in L2 will be able to afford to match that and mid-table/lower L1 teams wont take him on because he’s not hard working enough/good enough defensively. Maybe a mid-table Scottish Prem team will take a punt on him.

He also doesn’t strike me as the type to mutually agree to cancel his contract to go in search of first team football (which is fine, he’s entitled to his money. No qualms about that from me). So we’re stuck with each other in a loveless marriage.

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem we have with Dec John is that while he won’t be on mega bucks, he’ll still be on a decent wedge (minimum £3kpw) making it hard to shift him on to another team.

Not many teams in L2 will be able to afford to match that and mid-table/lower L1 teams wont take him on because he’s not hard working enough/good enough defensively. Maybe a mid-table Scottish Prem team will take a punt on him.

He also doesn’t strike me as the type to mutually agree to cancel his contract to go in search of first team football (which is fine, he’s entitled to his money. No qualms about that from me). So we’re stuck with each other in a loveless marriage.

He’s plenty good enough for many league one sides but few will pay to take a player they know is clearly unwanted. They’d hang fire and let us subsidise his wages…which as you say will not be insubstantial.

I know Wrexham wanted him but I assume with McClean that has now moved on.

[Mar]

The issue with both is workrate off the ball. They don’t do the defensive work that Evatt likes. I think in Sadlier’s case it’s less about willingness and more he just isn’t that sort of player. And in John’s case I think it’s probably a combination of engine and desire. Not everyone can be the sort of wing back Evatt demands. John maybe can but certainly doesn’t have the engine naturally to do it.

But going forwards both are very good. John was the main man in league two I’m not sure he was overshadowed by anyone and people were desperate to sign him for the next season.

There's an interview with Evatt and Markham online that goes into the thought process around signings and they cover having players that are suited to problems on the pitch. Sometimes we're more suited to having problems defensively which require a different solution than a particular player provides. So i'm under the impression they're picking players to address and issue and then working with them on the rest.

Evatt's players have to be able to do both sides of it. Prufrock noted early that Dec flies forward and ambles back. Evatt, standing next to him for half the game, can't have missed it. And team-mates have berated him for it. Same with Sadlier.

Lack of trackback isn't just lazy and annoying, it's dangerous - leaves us wide open.

I don't particularly think this is too much of an issue. I see the back 5 as a swinging pendulum, when the left goes forward the right swings to the centre to cover that role making a four at the back, likewise when the right goes, the left comes inside.

The trouble that i'd imagine is with John is that if he slows down coming back, it means that the counter attack on the right can't progress for risk of leaving us further exposed. Same with Sadlier. If they put in the hard yards i'd imagine they'd be getting more game time.

[Worthy4England]

I find some of the commentary around John, a bit strange.

People talk about how hard he doesn't work defensively, I'm struggling to recall a shedload of fatal crosses heading in from his flank - in any sort of meaningful sense that "stood out like a sore thumb" when he's played. Sure there's occasions, like you sometimes get on the other flank too, and I do recall being frustrated at how many crosses we let through in L2, but that was a "both sides" problem and at the time, it felt "obvious" that both sides were standing off the attacker...

I'm not going to be disappointed when he leaves, because clearly something is amiss (presumably at his Contract end, unless something comes through in the next couple of weeks), but he's often added to our attacking in reasonable ways, whilst maybe being remiss in his legging it back...

[BWFC_Insane]

The issue with both is workrate off the ball. They don’t do the defensive work that Evatt likes. I think in Sadlier’s case it’s less about willingness and more he just isn’t that sort of player. And in John’s case I think it’s probably a combination of engine and desire. Not everyone can be the sort of wing back Evatt demands. John maybe can but certainly doesn’t have the engine naturally to do it.

But going forwards both are very good. John was the main man in league two I’m not sure he was overshadowed by anyone and people were desperate to sign him for the next season.

There's an interview with Evatt and Markham online that goes into the thought process around signings and they cover having players that are suited to problems on the pitch. Sometimes we're more suited to having problems defensively which require a different solution than a particular player provides. So i'm under the impression they're picking players to address and issue and then working with them on the rest.

Evatt's players have to be able to do both sides of it. Prufrock noted early that Dec flies forward and ambles back. Evatt, standing next to him for half the game, can't have missed it. And team-mates have berated him for it. Same with Sadlier.

Lack of trackback isn't just lazy and annoying, it's dangerous - leaves us wide open.

I don't particularly think this is too much of an issue. I see the back 5 as a swinging pendulum, when the left goes forward the right swings to the centre to cover that role making a four at the back, likewise when the right goes, the left comes inside.

The trouble that i'd imagine is with John is that if he slows down coming back, it means that the counter attack on the right can't progress for risk of leaving us further exposed. Same with Sadlier. If they put in the hard yards i'd imagine they'd be getting more game time.

I think the thing is that neither John nor Sadlier are really built to be wing backs in an Evatt side. Like it or not, and Evatt needs players who maybe can’t defend but are willing/able to do the yards at the very least. He will not expect any single player to have it all but I think John and Sadlier simply don’t suit those roles and his demands.

[BWFC_Insane]

I find some of the commentary around John, a bit strange.

People talk about how hard he doesn't work defensively, I'm struggling to recall a shedload of fatal crosses heading in from his flank - in any sort of meaningful sense that "stood out like a sore thumb" when he's played. Sure there's occasions, like you sometimes get on the other flank too, and I do recall being frustrated at how many crosses we let through in L2, but that was a "both sides" problem and at the time, it felt "obvious" that both sides were standing off the attacker...

I'm not going to be disappointed when he leaves, because clearly something is amiss (presumably at his Contract end, unless something comes through in the next couple of weeks), but he's often added to our attacking in reasonable ways, whilst maybe being remiss in his legging it back...

For me that’s it though, as a full back he would be fine. He’d be caught up the pitch less you can on occasion use a midfield player to cover the gap. In this system the demand is up and down all day long running continually. And he could at times have the breather and let his winger do the forward push.

When we’ve had someone like Fossey who isn’t as suited to that he had electric pace that meant you could get away with it.

Williams and JDC look naturally like they are made for running up and down the line all day. John definitely is not and therefore to do it would take a lot of willingness and work.

[GhostoftheBok]

John absolutely can do it, because he does. If the game is "big", or televised, he consistently plays well.

John decides when he's going to turn up and fairly regularly can't be arsed.

It's not just about tracking back, it's 50/50s, reacting to triggers, picking up his man, etc

He forces everyone else to shift across to cover for him and that pulls apart our shape, leaving us open in other areas.

If he just couldn't do it I'd be less annoyed about it.

When Jones plays behind John on the left you can see him absolutely losing it at John for not doing basic things like picking up lads on a throw in. You've got Jones making the absolute most of his talent by doing everything asked of him to the best of his ability and then John just coasting. John is the more talented, but it's not even in question who benefits the team most when he players - Jones by a mile.

I very rarely rag on players, but I hate seeing a team performance let down by one guy.