Match Thread: Pasties and Pies - A Tasty affair! Bolton v Wigan (H) - Saturday 19th Aug / 12.30

[BWFC_Insane]

I've been watching the Burnley documentary last couple of days and it strikes me how similar Kompany and Evatt are in approach.

There are two things though that Kompany says a lot that I think stand out...

1) He plays as he describes it an 'academic' style of football - similar if not identical to Evatt but Kompany constantly states that Burnley is a working class town and the style has to go hand in hand with the fight and hard work such a place expects. I'm sure Evatt will say similar in this instance.
2) Kompany does network analysis of his squad to see who is friends with whom, who sits where at lunch, which groups form, who are the central nodes and who link groups together. And he was acutely aware that he was losing a lot of 'central nodes' (I guess to one extent or another leaders) from his group initially as he changed his squad around and that there would be a pain in that (its one of the reasons he kept Barnes around to help fill gaps). I wonder if we do that sort of analysis at Bolton as maybe that would help to understand the broader dynamics in the squad and perhaps where we might need to find people who fill those key gaps off the pitch as well as on it?

It's a fascinating idea. But you'd imagine the shift from Dyche to Kompany would be a huge wrench (and as we all know, humans don't like change). Meanwhile, Evatt had the strange luxury of building a squad afresh - I doubt Reiss Greenidge or Jak Hickman were key nodes. Judging from social-media output, it feels like Lloyd Isgrove was... although he may have lost centrality during his injury troubles. Who else?

Kachunga dug in tactically, but it would be almost hilarious if his exit were now to be seen as catastrophic.

Sexy Kieran? Well, he struck me as more of the strong and (relatively) silent, lead-by-example type rather than a bellower.

MJ? Maybe, but again I don't often recall hearing his voice echo around a stadium. A quiet word to young Morley perhaps, and those can go amiss when absent, but when he left I didn't think we were losing our lionheart.

I dunno. It's a really interesting thing to consider but I suspect a week-long gap after a bad defeat might just be a temptation into over-analysis (I've had to stop myself a few times).

After all, wasn't "node centrality" one of the main reasons to saign Robbie Blake?

Well I think the idea is less about 'typical leaders' and more about constant analysis of the group - how it holds together and who are key to that - those people may not be 'bellowers' but what it might offer is insight to the sort of characters that could help us.

I don't suggest doing this is a panacea or provides answers to 'why did Wigan hump us' but maybe offers useful insights. Kompany himself said he thought Barnes was a node because he was a 'clown' but over time realised a load of players respected him and younger players looked to him as a role model. So maybe Lee was that and its a loss - a very experienced pro who isn't demonstrative but maybe did carry the awe of some players and thus respect. Maybe Johnston is a miss as he's reportedly a 'character'.

You can't use that information to dictate recruitment but it maybe could inform it. It could also inform stuff you do to bring the squad together.

I'm certainly not advocating we sign Robbie Blake or Evatt's mates cos they are a 'good sort' btw!

[Mar]

I've been watching the Burnley documentary last couple of days and it strikes me how similar Kompany and Evatt are in approach.

There are two things though that Kompany says a lot that I think stand out...

1) He plays as he describes it an 'academic' style of football - similar if not identical to Evatt but Kompany constantly states that Burnley is a working class town and the style has to go hand in hand with the fight and hard work such a place expects. I'm sure Evatt will say similar in this instance.
2) Kompany does network analysis of his squad to see who is friends with whom, who sits where at lunch, which groups form, who are the central nodes and who link groups together. And he was acutely aware that he was losing a lot of 'central nodes' (I guess to one extent or another leaders) from his group initially as he changed his squad around and that there would be a pain in that (its one of the reasons he kept Barnes around to help fill gaps). I wonder if we do that sort of analysis at Bolton as maybe that would help to understand the broader dynamics in the squad and perhaps where we might need to find people who fill those key gaps off the pitch as well as on it?

It's a fascinating idea. But you'd imagine the shift from Dyche to Kompany would be a huge wrench (and as we all know, humans don't like change). Meanwhile, Evatt had the strange luxury of building a squad afresh - I doubt Reiss Greenidge or Jak Hickman were key nodes. Judging from social-media output, it feels like Lloyd Isgrove was... although he may have lost centrality during his injury troubles. Who else?

Kachunga dug in tactically, but it would be almost hilarious if his exit were now to be seen as catastrophic.

Sexy Kieran? Well, he struck me as more of the strong and (relatively) silent, lead-by-example type rather than a bellower.

MJ? Maybe, but again I don't often recall hearing his voice echo around a stadium. A quiet word to young Morley perhaps, and those can go amiss when absent, but when he left I didn't think we were losing our lionheart.

I dunno. It's a really interesting thing to consider but I suspect a week-long gap after a bad defeat might just be a temptation into over-analysis (I've had to stop myself a few times).

After all, wasn't "node centrality" one of the main reasons to saign Robbie Blake?

Well I think the idea is less about 'typical leaders' and more about constant analysis of the group - how it holds together and who are key to that - those people may not be 'bellowers' but what it might offer is insight to the sort of characters that could help us.

I don't suggest doing this is a panacea or provides answers to 'why did Wigan hump us' but maybe offers useful insights. Kompany himself said he thought Barnes was a node because he was a 'clown' but over time realised a load of players respected him and younger players looked to him as a role model. So maybe Lee was that and its a loss - a very experienced pro who isn't demonstrative but maybe did carry the awe of some players and thus respect. Maybe Johnston is a miss as he's reportedly a 'character'.

You can't use that information to dictate recruitment but it maybe could inform it. It could also inform stuff you do to bring the squad together.

I'm certainly not advocating we sign Robbie Blake or Evatt's mates cos they are a 'good sort' btw!

Arguably the most sensible and least provocative post you've put up here. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone disagreeing with that.

I do get the impression that scouting networks take player attitudes into account. Whether it's pivotal in our scouting remains to be seen but there have been instances where players haven't been signed for non footballing reasons. One instance was on a pod I recently listened to that talked about a player not being signed as his missus was answering all his questions.

There's a clear need for strong characters and a good dressing room.

Presumably we could do with a strong set of characters that can battle when the need arises.

I'd also like to think we're needing a marquis player that can give the entire squad a lift and get us over the line in matches where our players need a big lift. Think of the impact Djorkaeff had or Sammy Ameobi had. Someone that could unlock defenses with moments of skill. Perhaps thats CMG or Nlundulu going forward, time will tell.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Yeah. It’s one of those where annoyingly I can’t recall the specifics but I’m fairly sure we’ve backed out of a transfer for similar reasons - possibly under Evatt, although maybe early days. Although who knows - maybe the “football” scouting suggested Baccus but interpersonally Evatt decided against it.

Course, Sarce was a strong character who then absolutely saw his arse when he was benched at his old club. So, yeah, management. Odd thing.

I’m also still not sure it’s going to be solved by hiring some sort of on-field Winston Churchill. How we get over this Gallipoli is to win again, and again. Burton must be beaten, at which point people will say “they’re shit anyway”, so we have to pass the bigger tests like Derby and so on. As I say, trust is hard won and easy lost.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah. It’s one of those where annoyingly I can’t recall the specifics but I’m fairly sure we’ve backed out of a transfer for similar reasons - possibly under Evatt, although maybe early days. Although who knows - maybe the “football” scouting suggested Baccus but interpersonally Evatt decided against it.

Course, Sarce was a strong character who then absolutely saw his arse when he was benched at his old club. So, yeah, management. Odd thing.

I’m also still not sure it’s going to be solved by hiring some sort of on-field Winston Churchill. How we get over this Gallipoli is to win again, and again. Burton must be beaten, at which point people will say “they’re shit anyway”, so we have to pass the bigger tests like Derby and so on. As I say, trust is hard won and easy lost.

I think the problem with ‘character or personality testing’ is they are single points of data, they tell you so much but the approach Kompany has gives much richer data about the wider group and interactions. I kind of like it. Though of course is it something that we’d enjoy being subject to? I suspect not. So maybe it is easy to say hard to do….

It’s a complex one because as an example Anelka was apparently happiest coming in, having a chat, doing his work then going home. He wasn’t much one for integration. But that worked with the very experienced dressing room we had because all the players got on with him but also could admire his ability and just know he needed to do what he needed to do. But throw him into a younger dressing room and they are all socialising etc….and their senior pro just wants to be on his own…that’s more problematic. You can do all the tests you want but I guess measuring dynamics gives you a better insight into what is actually happening.

The point about ‘everything isn’t fixed signing a Churchill’ I suspect is right. You can’t change a group just so easily. But the midfield issue is pretty unbalanced still. Thomason, Morley, Sheehan, you’d not say any are particularly strong or physical or commanding. Dempsey is to an extent but he’s also not the biggest. We clearly need some balance in there both character wise and physicality wise. I was thinking the other day of the ‘relative to our opponents’ best team we’ve seen and that was Todd’s champions who obviously comprehensively won that league and they had in midfield Sheridan, Sellars, Pollock, Frandsen…they could all play - Todd demanded that - but they also could all scrap and even kick their way through a game when needed. None of them were one thing. And since we sold MJ (who let’s remember came into a physically light touch midfield in league two to transform our season in part) I think we definitely lack that sort of 6. I don’t see many if any teams who are near the top who do well without that type, indeed Man Utd have an existential crisis two games in over their lack of one, city are trying to spend an unhealthy amount on another to go with Rodri….for me one is needed. Ideally one who also will gee up the midfield round them when necessary. They don’t always need to start. Course not. But there are games for me we need one. Are crying out for one.

[Prufrock]

I don't think we're great physicality wise, and I'd like more, but it's not long since Cheltenham fans were saying all our players looked 6 inches taller, 2st heavier and five years quicker than theirs.

I think it's an area that is particularly rife for over exaggeration. To use DSBs favourite thought experiment, if you look at us as an away fan do you really think "soft touch". I'm not sure. I think it's a factor, but a small one, but small ones are probably the difference between the top and the very top of this league. So I'm not really sure what I'm saying.

On the group dynamics it's art not science, and one of those areas that's prime for reductive thinking. There's something there we don't understand so we'll try to find some weird proxy. Markham spoke on the podcast a few face referred to about Huddersfield having player interviews in the middle of some hard to find industrial estate as if this was somehow an instructive test about whether they could be arsed to turn up or were put off by it.

Not for me Jeff. Screams of one of those social science experiments from the 60s, some guy has done an experiment that shows some mad counter intuitive (therefore interesting) thing like humans will torture each other for crisps and then it goes viral but turns out it doesn't replicate because they tested it on 6 people they picked up outside a "psychos who hate people but love crisps" convention.

Leadership is important, but it's far from one size fits all, and it's part of a complex group environment. Roy Keane was the perfect leader for that United team. Forget how players have changed, I suspect he'd have been a terrible captain in most other teams even at that time.

[Mar]

Saw the Wigan goals on Twitter and watched the highlights again, glutton for punishment I guess.

Their last goal looks like a clear foul on CMG(?) when Wigan won the ball back. Clearly something not picked up by the referee. Kicks the side of his leg.