Match Thread: Pasties and Pies - A Tasty affair! Bolton v Wigan (H) - Saturday 19th Aug / 12.30

[BWFC_Insane]

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... ian-evatt/

Exactly!

That reads a bit more tempered and nuanced than the requested public executions...

It's also Evatt ducking.

There's plenty of blame to be carried by the players, but he also got it wrong - which was why you could see it coming a mile off, especially after Fleetwood.

Evatt started off after the game saying he didn't see it coming, but that sounded bad and got remarked upon across social media. So in that article he's saying he did, in fact, see it coming; but in a way that removes any blame from himself.

I don't like it. It's exculpatory bullshit. That doesn't mean there's no truth in it, but it's also obvious reputation-management of the kind he always indulges in.

It's all very well saying "If only the players will let me make them better we'll win everything, but maybe they'll limit my brilliance with their lack of belief or weak minds"...so long as he doesn't actually believe that. Sometimes I worry he drinks his own kool-aid.

If you chuck someone off a cliff you can't then blame them for lacking the faith to fly or willingness to battle the rocks.

It’s almost but not quite as bad as thinking that if he’d played Maghoma it would magically have stopped Santos being bullied, Morley hiding, Sheehan and Williams pulling out of 50:50’s etc…

Evatt is right to address our mentality issue because it’s clear as day and staring us in the face. He’s brushed it under the rug for three seasons but it needs sorting.

Against Fleetwood Maghoma was great going forwards for half an hour then faded. But at no point did I sit there and think ‘he’s the answer in a physical local Derby scrap’ game. And maybe Evatt made some selection errors but that is smaller compared to the lack of fight we had in the starting eleven. And indeed the eleven that finished the game.

Dempsey and CMG the only two who for me showed the sort of qualities you need in that game and it’s also clear that CMG is still a ways off being ready to start a game, especially one like that.

[GhostoftheBok]

Evatt is right to address our mentality issue because it’s clear as day and staring us in the face. He’s brushed it under the rug for three seasons but it needs sorting.

Evatt has "addressed our mentality" lots of times during his tenure - mostly as a way to excuse his own failings. Again, that doesn't mean a lot of it hasn't been true - but what is and isn't true is less important to Ian than how people perceive him. What he says in public often coincides with the truth, but that's increasingly looking like it is incidental.

I'm not saying this as part of my disagreeing with you. I've always hated this aspect of his personality and that article rubbed me up the wrong way.

I said when he arrived that I would never like him as a person, but thought he'd be a good manager for us. This is the me not liking him as a person part.

[Bertie Wooster]

Evatt is right to address our mentality issue because it’s clear as day and staring us in the face. He’s brushed it under the rug for three seasons but it needs sorting.

Have I missed something ? how has he addressed the mentality issue ? has he signed a couple of experienced more combative players today. He can't fix the mentality issue with the same players by a interview with the press - they can't suddenly change to become tougher, more combative & physical just because the manager tells them to. It's either in their nature or its not and Evatt has already come out said that they are are basically too nice a group and lack that nasty edge.

He can only do that by bringing in a couple of players with the required combative & physical attributes to give the team that edge - however as you & others have said previously, he's failed to address this for three seasons - the mentality issue & lack of physicality in the squad is down to Evatt himself, and he needs to take responsibility for it instead of generally blaming the group of players, he's had plenty of time to address this issue and has completely ignored it.

[GhostoftheBok]

It’s almost but not quite as bad as thinking that if he’d played Maghoma it would magically have stopped Santos being bullied, Morley hiding, Sheehan and Williams pulling out of 50:50’s etc…

On the "why you are wrong again" part, it probably doesn't help when you say things like this.

What I said in advance of the game was that the way we played against Fleetwood showed what would happen against Wigan if Evatt tried it again. Maghoma started against Fleetwood, so you might be able to make the leap and work out that I don't think "playing Maghoma would magically have stopped Santos being bullied."

I've explained what the issues were and why our defensive failings could be seen coming. I've also explained how they could have been mitigated and given us a better chance of winning.

Repeating myself gets tiresome.

[officer_dibble]

I don’t think physically our players are of less stature than most of the ones we come against…other than maybe Sheehan. OK there is no papa bouba diop but there aren’t any sleight shortarses who look like they would be better suited to a career as a jockey…

[BWFC_Insane]

It’s almost but not quite as bad as thinking that if he’d played Maghoma it would magically have stopped Santos being bullied, Morley hiding, Sheehan and Williams pulling out of 50:50’s etc…

On the "why you are wrong again" part, it probably doesn't help when you say things like this.

What I said in advance of the game was that the way we played against Fleetwood showed what would happen against Wigan if Evatt tried it again. Maghoma started against Fleetwood, so you might be able to make the leap and work out that I don't think "playing Maghoma would magically have stopped Santos being bullied."

I've explained what the issues were and why our defensive failings could be seen coming. I've also explained how they could have been mitigated and given us a better chance of winning.

Repeating myself gets tiresome.

Perhaps you could tell us what team Evatt needed to pick? And then the same for Saturday - at least then we can compare.

Thomason also started against Fleetwood. So I’m interested in what midfield three he should have played?

[dave the minion]

I don't like it. It's exculpatory bullshit

And with that, my friend, I do believe you win an internet prize for the best word of the thread (and maybe, even, the whole forum......)

[truewhite15]

Evatt out. Etc.

[Worthy4England]

If you chuck someone off a cliff you can't then blame them for lacking the faith to fly or willingness to battle the rocks.

True, but I might hope, that they understand the situation in front of them and that they flapped their arms, to the very best of their ability, even if it's unlikely to change the outcome!

From an analysis point of view do we actually assess (for want of a better phrase) cojones? I mean pointing to someone with 80% tackle success, still means they miss 1 in 5 and situational, that can be critical..

[BWFC_Insane]

If you chuck someone off a cliff you can't then blame them for lacking the faith to fly or willingness to battle the rocks.

True, but I might hope, that they understand the situation in front of them and that they flapped their arms, to the very best of their ability, even if it's unlikely to change the outcome!

From an analysis point of view do we actually assess (for want of a better phrase) cojones? I mean pointing to someone with 80% tackle success, still means they miss 1 in 5 and situational, that can be critical..

I suspect that leadership and courage and bravery are things we have overlooked somewhat. A lot of football is in the mind and some of the greatest players in history have not necessarily been the best technically but their attitude and character overcame some ability.

That for me is something we could do with generally. I know we have a young group but if you take Charles and Demps out it’s all very passive young player quiet characters.

[Worthy4England]

If you chuck someone off a cliff you can't then blame them for lacking the faith to fly or willingness to battle the rocks.

True, but I might hope, that they understand the situation in front of them and that they flapped their arms, to the very best of their ability, even if it's unlikely to change the outcome!

From an analysis point of view do we actually assess (for want of a better phrase) cojones? I mean pointing to someone with 80% tackle success, still means they miss 1 in 5 and situational, that can be critical..

I suspect that leadership and courage and bravery are things we have overlooked somewhat. A lot of football is in the mind and some of the greatest players in history have not necessarily been the best technically but their attitude and character overcame some ability.

That for me is something we could do with generally. I know we have a young group but if you take Charles and Demps out it’s all very passive young player quiet characters.

Yeah, I was seeing if Ghost knew, from an analytics perspective...

[TANGODANCER]

I suspect that leadership and courage and bravery are things we have overlooked somewhat. A lot of football is in the mind and some of the greatest players in history have not necessarily been the best technically but their attitude and character overcame some ability.

Sometimes, just sometimes, one team(A) comes up against another (B) and no matter how hard they try, they lose, because on the day (B) play/are. a little better. (A)will recover, but may not beat (B) because of many factors involving mainly that at that particular moment in time, (A) aren't quite good enough. England women in the World Cup Final were a prime example. All the money in the world doesn't govern nationality or affect matters, in their case; in ours, it certainly does. Will not winning the League against possibly superior sides class us as rubbish then?

Football supporting is an unforgiving task master with the loyalty of Superas Moras in many cases meaning perfection or die . I doubt there'll be many Wigan days somehow, but Que Sera. Keep the Faith and trust the manager.

[Prufrock]

Saturday is massive. Real test. Taken a hiding, will be in your face again. Win there doesn't fix everything, but lose and there's big questions.

I think a lot of Evatt's comments are aimed at that. We're obsessed with it and have our fan mentality, but basically a post match press con is just the first pre match for the next one. He's obviously hoping it gets a reaction.

[DJBlu]

Speaking of psychology and strength, How many of the team have had significant injuries in the last 12 to 24 months?

Iredale, Williams, Sheehan, Jones, Santos.

I hope its not an underlying issue as it was apparent that players didn't want to go in 100% with 50/50s.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Bad news for those trying to reanimate the corpse of Karl Henry.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... hilosophy/

[Worthy4England]

Bad news for those trying to reanimate the corpse of Karl Henry.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... hilosophy/

The fairly obvious retort, is Wigan had more then plenty of technical ability and nasty edge to beat us by 4 at home (and to be fair, it wasn't "nasty" other than to watch), and in case Ian hadn't noticed, they're in League 1, not the Premier League. So I call this codswallop.

[Bertie Wooster]

Bad news for those trying to reanimate the corpse of Karl Henry.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... hilosophy/

The fairly obvious retort, is Wigan had more then plenty of technical ability and nasty edge to beat us by 4 at home (and to be fair, it wasn't "nasty" other than to watch), and in case Ian hadn't noticed, they're in League 1, not the Premier League. So I call this codswallop.

Agree with this Worthy, I'd also add that as well as Wigan - Plymouth, Sheff Weds, Ipswich, Barnsley etc. all had players with much more of an edge than Bolton, all were in League 1 last season.

[BWFC_Insane]

Bad news for those trying to reanimate the corpse of Karl Henry.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... hilosophy/

Yeah sorry I don’t agree with Evatt here. You can’t get everything you always want in one player. But a more physical midfield option has been an essential for absolutely ages. They wouldn’t be needed in every game but we will run into enough games where one is needed. And if they also had some leadership ability then it would also potentially help rub off on others and move the group on. It’s like pep saying he won’t play Rodri because he’s not as good technically as silva or de Bruyne. You need a balance.

[BWFC_Insane]

I've been watching the Burnley documentary last couple of days and it strikes me how similar Kompany and Evatt are in approach.

There are two things though that Kompany says a lot that I think stand out...

1) He plays as he describes it an 'academic' style of football - similar if not identical to Evatt but Kompany constantly states that Burnley is a working class town and the style has to go hand in hand with the fight and hard work such a place expects. I'm sure Evatt will say similar in this instance.
2) Kompany does network analysis of his squad to see who is friends with whom, who sits where at lunch, which groups form, who are the central nodes and who link groups together. And he was acutely aware that he was losing a lot of 'central nodes' (I guess to one extent or another leaders) from his group initially as he changed his squad around and that there would be a pain in that (its one of the reasons he kept Barnes around to help fill gaps). I wonder if we do that sort of analysis at Bolton as maybe that would help to understand the broader dynamics in the squad and perhaps where we might need to find people who fill those key gaps off the pitch as well as on it?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I've been watching the Burnley documentary last couple of days and it strikes me how similar Kompany and Evatt are in approach.

There are two things though that Kompany says a lot that I think stand out...

1) He plays as he describes it an 'academic' style of football - similar if not identical to Evatt but Kompany constantly states that Burnley is a working class town and the style has to go hand in hand with the fight and hard work such a place expects. I'm sure Evatt will say similar in this instance.
2) Kompany does network analysis of his squad to see who is friends with whom, who sits where at lunch, which groups form, who are the central nodes and who link groups together. And he was acutely aware that he was losing a lot of 'central nodes' (I guess to one extent or another leaders) from his group initially as he changed his squad around and that there would be a pain in that (its one of the reasons he kept Barnes around to help fill gaps). I wonder if we do that sort of analysis at Bolton as maybe that would help to understand the broader dynamics in the squad and perhaps where we might need to find people who fill those key gaps off the pitch as well as on it?

It's a fascinating idea. But you'd imagine the shift from Dyche to Kompany would be a huge wrench (and as we all know, humans don't like change). Meanwhile, Evatt had the strange luxury of building a squad afresh - I doubt Reiss Greenidge or Jak Hickman were key nodes. Judging from social-media output, it feels like Lloyd Isgrove was... although he may have lost centrality during his injury troubles. Who else?

Kachunga dug in tactically, but it would be almost hilarious if his exit were now to be seen as catastrophic.

Sexy Kieran? Well, he struck me as more of the strong and (relatively) silent, lead-by-example type rather than a bellower.

MJ? Maybe, but again I don't often recall hearing his voice echo around a stadium. A quiet word to young Morley perhaps, and those can go amiss when absent, but when he left I didn't think we were losing our lionheart.

I dunno. It's a really interesting thing to consider but I suspect a week-long gap after a bad defeat might just be a temptation into over-analysis (I've had to stop myself a few times).

After all, wasn't "node centrality" one of the main reasons to saign Robbie Blake?