Match Thread: Pasties and Pies - A Tasty affair! Bolton v Wigan (H) - Saturday 19th Aug / 12.30

[officer_dibble]

Interesting- what you do at Burton Ghost? Genuinely pleased for a different view.

[BWFC_Insane]

The thing is whilst I do think Evatt got some calls wrong, the primary reason we lost was not tactical or team selection. It was attitude.

If it really is the case that we can’t pick those players if a team presses us then every team should come and play like that against us (they should anyway cos regardless of how good they are it’s clearly the best way to play us) then we can’t pick those players ever.

I’m not really having that it was all or even mainly down to tactics and selection. If the players did their jobs and showed the desire and resilience that are a bare minimum we may well have still lost but it would have been much more of a game.

I hope every team looks at how Wigan played and tries to repeat that. We need that challenge week in week out now. I want us to be judged on our ability to out fight a team to win the transitions and to have to deal with that week in and week out. It will improve us - I think we have cracked the low block with the delivery from our wing backs now in the main. But I don’t believe we really have sorted the playing against the aggressive high press - and it’s a blueprint we need to find the right options (we don’t have all of them) to play against.

[Worthy4England]

The problem we had on Saturday, is it's a pretty long list (for me) of players that were pretty inauspicious. Baxter, Santos, Iredale, Gethin, Randy, Vic and Dan all made howlers, yet folks have determined that Morley and Sheehan were the problem.

The goals weren't from problems created by either. Wyke's opener, we let him through the block and left Dempsey chasing him.

2 was a comedy of errors. Ric duffs his header from a direct outball from their GK (with both Morley and Sheehan well upfield.) They had one person there at the time. Geth doesn't get to his header. Morley knocks it backwards, Geth gets beat to the ball, Baxter palms it infield.

Three, JDC loses out on his header, Demps and Vic contrive to let one player get the ball. At the point they roll it down the wing, Geth, Morely and Sheehan all in oppo half and just too slow to react. More comedy ensues.

Their 4th, the guy has Santos and Iredale stood either side less than a foot away and gets his shot off, unchallenged...

It would be difficult for me to work out who to give away, first (deliberately hyperbolic, I'm not actually contemplating it )

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem we had on Saturday, is it's a pretty long list (for me) of players that were pretty inauspicious. Baxter, Santos, Iredale, Gethin, Randy, Vic and Dan all made howlers, yet folks have determined that Morley and Sheehan were the problem.

The goals weren't from problems created by either. Wyke's opener, we let him through the block and left Dempsey chasing him.

2 was a comedy of errors. Ric duffs his header from a direct outball from their GK (with both Morley and Sheehan well upfield.) They had one person there at the time. Geth doesn't get to his header. Morley knocks it backwards, Geth gets beat to the ball, Baxter palms it infield.

Three, JDC loses out on his header, Demps and Vic contrive to let one player get the ball. At the point they roll it down the wing, Geth, Morely and Sheehan all in oppo half and just too slow to react. More comedy ensues.

Their 4th, the guy has Santos and Iredale stood either side less than a foot away and gets his shot off, unchallenged...

It would be difficult for me to work out who to give away, first (deliberately hyperbolic, I'm not actually contemplating it )

All those players were awful. I think though that the issue with our complete lack of control over the game stemmed heavily from Sheehan and Morley in the opening half hour. Morley started to hide once he realised it was a physical battle. Sheehan just got completely dominated. I agree with the players in your list - they were all awful. Santos was physically bested by Wyke and instead of rising to the challenge showed a poor mentality which we haven't seen for a while. Jones the same. Iredale for me was far too soft - I get it you were struggling but you need to stand up and be counted.

The thing is that the frailty across the team worries me. I can accept that the midfield was wrong and we lost out there but that should involve the whole house of cards falling apart. The goals we conceded were unacceptably bad.

But when people say 'its mentality' I do think they have a point to an extent. Why would the keeper for example who has looked (if a bit untested) generally solid have such a shocker suddenly? You can argue the back three were tested against Fleetwood and looked shaky at times BUT I'd say that they still were digging in and doing their jobs especially down to 10.

We all know that in a game like that we need a Karl Henry in that number 6 role to physically match teams and let our better footballers play - Sheehan doesn't cut it - we also know Morley is no number 8 - a point Fred Eyre made succinctly on the radio post match. But I still think you don't collectively play as poorly as we did without some significant issue around character and mentality in the squad. We've seen it too often.

However, the goals - you're looking at the third and not saying Sheehan was completely lazy? Cos he was.

The 2nd, sums Morley up - half hearted flicking the ball back into danger when he should have gone in whole heartedly and put his foot through the ball to break up their attack.

[Worthy4England]

Well yes n no. Yes you could call out Sheehan on one and Morley for his "flick" but it's difficult for me to say those were "the" problem vs those were a problem in a whole catalogue...

I don't disagree that both go missing when it's not "flat track"

[Harry Genshaw]

That first one (the corner, I can't contemplate rewatching them) summed up a lot of what was wrong. Loose ball across the back, Iredale who appeared to be in a state of panic from the fast start and under no pressure, chests it out for a corner. Baxter either didn't shout or wasn't commanding his box. 3 of our players linking arms at the edge of the box and presumably zonal marking as no one was picking up a guy at the back. Soft cross into the box, everyone leaving it for someone else, Wyke scores the easiest goal he'll get this year.

[Worthy4England]

That first one (the corner, I can't contemplate rewatching them) summed up a lot of what was wrong. Loose ball across the back, Iredale who appeared to be in a state of panic from the fast start and under no pressure, chests it out for a corner. Baxter either didn't shout or wasn't commanding his box. 3 of our players linking arms at the edge of the box and presumably zonal marking as no one was picking up a guy at the back. Soft cross into the box, everyone leaving it for someone else, Wyke scores the easiest goal he'll get this year.

Yes to all that.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Missed the game, spent a 17-hour day moving both our children into new flats at opposite ends of London on the same day.

Sounds like I had it easy.

Also sounds like our manager dropped a bollock. Let's hope he learns from it.

[BWFC_Insane]

Missed the game, spent a 17-hour day moving both our children into new flats at opposite ends of London on the same day.

Sounds like I had it easy.

Also sounds like our manager dropped a bollock. Let's hope he learns from it.

Nah the majority of blame goes to the players for their abject, spineless effort.

I'm all for critiquing Evatt but I think most of that is a bit silly. Unless you critique him for the fact he has a squad where his first choice midfield can't play if a team steps onto it - I mean sure. But then that fault is less a selection issue and more a summer and recruitment one.

They haven't put the game up yet but its worth watching to see how players visibly retreated from the fight. Can't do that just cos its tough.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Missed the game, spent a 17-hour day moving both our children into new flats at opposite ends of London on the same day.

Sounds like I had it easy.

Also sounds like our manager dropped a bollock. Let's hope he learns from it.

Nah the majority of blame goes to the players for their abject, spineless effort.

I'm all for critiquing Evatt but I think most of that is a bit silly. Unless you critique him for the fact he has a squad where his first choice midfield can't play if a team steps onto it - I mean sure. But then that fault is less a selection issue and more a summer and recruitment one.

<don't say anything, DSB>

Interesting to hear that coming from you, as you've historically been among the foremost questioners of Evatt.

I get that they clearly didn't show the balls they shoulda. I would still say that's the gaffer's fault for not preparing, or selecting, them correctly. But yes, that's not to give players a free ride.

As I say, we have to learn. He has to learn. That might include which players to pick when.

[BWFC_Insane]

Missed the game, spent a 17-hour day moving both our children into new flats at opposite ends of London on the same day.

Sounds like I had it easy.

Also sounds like our manager dropped a bollock. Let's hope he learns from it.

Nah the majority of blame goes to the players for their abject, spineless effort.

I'm all for critiquing Evatt but I think most of that is a bit silly. Unless you critique him for the fact he has a squad where his first choice midfield can't play if a team steps onto it - I mean sure. But then that fault is less a selection issue and more a summer and recruitment one.

<don't say anything, DSB>

Interesting to hear that coming from you, as you've historically been among the foremost questioners of Evatt.

I get that they clearly didn't show the balls they shoulda. I would still say that's the gaffer's fault for not preparing, or selecting, them correctly. But yes, that's not to give players a free ride.

As I say, we have to learn. He has to learn. That might include which players to pick when.

I think the suggestion that we got embarrassingly stuffed 4-0 because Evatt didn't play Maghoma is what I'm referring to. Its a bit 'ignoring the reality' of the game and how much of an abject mess it was. It wouldn't have stopped Santos losing the battle with Wyke and effectively giving up. Nor Jones or Iredale failing to cope with their wide men and to one extent or another also giving in to the drowning effect before the quarter hour mark was passed. Nor Sheehan being entirely inadequate in such a game.

The bottom line is that the biggest things we lacked Saturday was a leader, a physical combative mobile midfield player (for the millionth time) and enough senior players standing up to be counted (bar Dempsey the rest did not).

We now have a reputation as a team that gives in when the fight is taken to them which could go one of two ways.

I suspect Evatt will address it I'm also pretty sure he knows he needs to recruit that midfield option and strengthen the leaders on the pitch because it would be impossible to miss the need following Saturday.

For me above and beyond any tactics if 10 players all lose their individual battles comprehensively the manager is a bit powerless. And that's what happened.

Though Maloney has shown Evatt the athleticism and physicality required in this league.

[Bertie Wooster]

I get that they clearly didn't show the balls they shoulda. I would still say that's the gaffer's fault for not preparing, or selecting, them correctly. But yes, that's not to give players a free ride.

As I say, we have to learn. He has to learn. That might include which players to pick when.

This wouldn't come as any surprise to anyone, but I think that it's as much Evatt's fault as the players. He should have got them fired up so that they come out of the traps & compete from min 1, he also failed to address the physicality issue why didn't he bring on Maghoma & Thomason straight away, once it was clear that Sheehan & Morley didn't fancy it with it being physical.

However my main issue is that we have needed a couple of physical, tougher, leaders in this team from the moment Evatt arrived and he's had enough transfer windows to address this & has completely ignored this flaw in the team. Will he now go out in the last days of the summer window and address it and sign a couple of combative, steely, tougher players - I highly doubt he will.

In Derby games you have to win the battle first (you can't be bullied) before you can start playing nice football - and for the 2nd time in a few years against Wigan (and a few of the lesser teams in League 1 last year) - Fleetwood (Vela & Rooney) kicked us a lot last week, but we don't have any players to do it back, as with Wigan.

To avoid this happening again, we need a midfield b**tard and also make him captain - because although it's only one game etc. I don't think that Santos is a natural leader / captain & Gethin Jones certainly isn't.

[Mar]

Though Maloney has shown Evatt the athleticism and physicality required in this league.

Possibly, although this may be anecdotal evidence of that athleticism and physicality required in the league. Hard to tell being four games in. I'm sure Wigan fans would've had a different story to tell when they lost to Wrexham or drew with Carlisle (20th in the league).

I do think its a wakeup call for these sort of matches. Hopefully it'll stand us in good stead going forward if it gets addressed. We had similar issues against Wigan and similarly against Stockport, so I think it takes Evatt and backroom team a while to correct things but for the most part their track record is good.

Looks like the manager and players are coming out acknowledging what a shit-show it was, so it's not like they're hiding from the criticism, but acknowledging it and needing to put it right.

Burton's a big game on Saturday. Historically we've not won at their ground (W0D2L2) so to be able to put that right and in a good manner too (not a scrappy 1-0) would go a long way towards showing intent for the season. Failing that, it might very well be a start of a bad patch, with Boro up next and Derby thereafter.

[BWFC_Insane]

Though Maloney has shown Evatt the athleticism and physicality required in this league.

Possibly, although this may be anecdotal evidence of that athleticism and physicality required in the league. Hard to tell being four games in. I'm sure Wigan fans would've had a different story to tell when they lost to Wrexham or drew with Carlisle (20th in the league).

I do think its a wakeup call for these sort of matches. Hopefully it'll stand us in good stead going forward if it gets addressed. We had similar issues against Wigan and similarly against Stockport, so I think it takes Evatt and backroom team a while to correct things but for the most part their track record is good.

Looks like the manager and players are coming out acknowledging what a shit-show it was, so it's not like they're hiding from the criticism, but acknowledging it and needing to put it right.

Burton's a big game on Saturday. Historically we've not won at their ground (W0D2L2) so to be able to put that right and in a good manner too (not a scrappy 1-0) would go a long way towards showing intent for the season. Failing that, it might very well be a start of a bad patch, with Boro up next and Derby thereafter.

The need to match teams physicality and athleticism has been a running theme for three seasons. The better sides always have an edge on us here....it is something we can't avoid. Especially in midfield. Wing backs we've arguably addressed some of that.

But midfield is small and generally weak and slow. Maghoma may help there but still has work to do to learn the off the ball game. The ease at which Wigan cut through the midfield but also got back when required for me shows where we need to get to.

And whilst its only 4 games bar their points deduction Wigan would be top now.....

[boltonboris]

Burton's a big game on Saturday. Historically we've not won at their ground (W0D2L2) so to be able to put that right and in a good manner too (not a scrappy 1-0) would go a long way towards showing intent for the season. Failing that, it might very well be a start of a bad patch, with Boro up next and Derby thereafter.

I would be quite happy to see us come out 1-0 winners in a scrappy manner. Might show that some balls have grown back

[BWFC_Insane]

For the benefit of those who haven't seen it. This clip - the first especially highlights exactly why I and everyone else was so annoyed.

Sheehan - powder puff - should be winning that ball. Williams - appalling lack of challenge. Morley - that's unforgiveable, weak challenge then strolls back till he realises we are in trouble and its too late.

https://twitter.com/leemerricksguru/sta ... 87839?s=20

None of that is remotely to do with tactics. Purely about commitment and effort. And for it to be so lacking collectively is really bad.

[boltonboris]

For the benefit of those who haven't seen it. This clip - the first especially highlights exactly why I and everyone else was so annoyed.

Sheehan - powder puff - should be winning that ball. Williams - appalling lack of challenge. Morley - that's unforgiveable, weak challenge then strolls back till he realises we are in trouble and its too late.

https://twitter.com/leemerricksguru/sta ... 87839?s=20

None of that is remotely to do with tactics. Purely about commitment and effort. And for it to be so lacking collectively is really bad.

You're a sick pervert. No way I'm watching any of this match back

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

∆ Yeah, it's not good. I mean it could be said that Sheehan was clearly fouled, Williams was waiting for the referee's whistle and Morley made more effort to track back than Lucy Bronze did. But I can see why it's germane to the context of the argument.

[boltonboris]

Never going to watch it back, but Wyke looked offside when the cross came in before we knocked it out for a corner on the 1st goal. Th cross was aimed at him and he made a run for it. Flag should've gone up

[officer_dibble]

Narr it’s not getting any better, two consecutive 0-4 drubbings at home in derby matches. Anyone involved in both wants a literal kick in the bollocks. Those just here from Saturday get the away game for redemption. Set of cnuts.