Match Thread: Pasties and Pies - A Tasty affair! Bolton v Wigan (H) - Saturday 19th Aug / 12.30

[Bertie Wooster]

Port Vale lost 7-0 first game of the season and haven’t lost since. This needs to be the kick up the arse Colon Todds lot got against Southend in 96. Only a win next week at Burton will do - get Thomason and Maghoma in the side and prepare properly. Agreed on comments re Evatt getting the team wrong yesterday - totally outdone tactically needs a good look at himself. And if the players prove again they aren’t up for a battle get dealing before the window closes.

Yes its physicality & leadership that needs to be addressed by Evatt (as it has for the past 2 years) - the attitude and body language from Santos (captain) & Jones (vice captain) was a little worrying for me, these two are the supposed leaders in the team but yesterday they both shrank more than anyone - they both bottled it and didn't want to know. We have too many 'nice' players who don't like any physical battles and get bullied like they and others did yesterday.

[jimbo]

Port Vale lost 7-0 first game of the season and haven’t lost since. This needs to be the kick up the arse Colon Todds lot got against Southend in 96. Only a win next week at Burton will do - get Thomason and Maghoma in the side and prepare properly. Agreed on comments re Evatt getting the team wrong yesterday - totally outdone tactically needs a good look at himself. And if the players prove again they aren’t up for a battle get dealing before the window closes.

Yes its physicality & leadership that needs to be addressed by Evatt (as it has for the past 2 years) - the attitude and body language from Santos (captain) & Jones (vice captain) was a little worrying for me, these two are the supposed leaders in the team but yesterday they both shrank more than anyone - they both bottled it and didn't want to know. We have too many 'nice' players who don't like any physical battles and get bullied like they and others did yesterday.

Jones stood out to me too. His passing was woeful, but every time he gave the ball away he was waving his arms at others seeming to blame them.

[BWFC_Insane]

Port Vale lost 7-0 first game of the season and haven’t lost since. This needs to be the kick up the arse Colon Todds lot got against Southend in 96. Only a win next week at Burton will do - get Thomason and Maghoma in the side and prepare properly. Agreed on comments re Evatt getting the team wrong yesterday - totally outdone tactically needs a good look at himself. And if the players prove again they aren’t up for a battle get dealing before the window closes.

Yes its physicality & leadership that needs to be addressed by Evatt (as it has for the past 2 years) - the attitude and body language from Santos (captain) & Jones (vice captain) was a little worrying for me, these two are the supposed leaders in the team but yesterday they both shrank more than anyone - they both bottled it and didn't want to know. We have too many 'nice' players who don't like any physical battles and get bullied like they and others did yesterday.

Jones stood out to me too. His passing was woeful, but every time he gave the ball away he was waving his arms at others seeming to blame them.

It was noted round me that captain and vice captain both gave up and neither led either by example or by getting into the team.

Jones and santos both for me showed a massive lack of leadership.

I also noted in the first 15 minutes Evatt frantically telling the team to calm down yet it seemed to me that we needed to do the opposite and show some intensity and urgency.

I do think throughout we lack the sort of leadership Evatt himself offered as a player.

Dempsey the only player we have who for me looks up for a fight and really sets an example.

[Bertie Wooster]

It was like an U16's boys team playing a mens team for the 1st time.

[BWFC_Insane]

It was interesting that Phil Brown said that he couldn’t understand why Evatt didn’t change it after ten minutes. Like it was so obvious we were being out fought and that players selected couldn’t cope (apparently they mentioned this at that point during commentary) and he said that he would have changed it there and then to give us a chance.

I suppose the question is whether we have the changes that could have helped. Thomason and Maghoma I guess. But still feels sub optimal. Maybe we should have changed system. The one in front of the back three and two 8’s failed hard yesterday.

[The_Gun]

Frankly I’m shocked that Bertie and Insano are creaming themselves over yesterday. Will we get to 20 pages of whinging?

[BWFC_Insane]

Iles match ratings.

All fair. Those complaining about people complaining. Suggest you take these in.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... h-ratings/

[Worthy4England]

I think at this juncture on a forum, we're just supposed to say "ahh well." We could look for positives from yesterday, but I doubt that's getting to 20 pages.

[Bertie Wooster]

"ahh well." let's look for the positives - it's only a game of football after all.

[Worthy4England]

It was interesting that Phil Brown said that he couldn’t understand why Evatt didn’t change it after ten minutes. Like it was so obvious we were being out fought and that players selected couldn’t cope (apparently they mentioned this at that point during commentary) and he said that he would have changed it there and then to give us a chance.

I suppose the question is whether we have the changes that could have helped. Thomason and Maghoma I guess. But still feels sub optimal. Maybe we should have changed system. The one in front of the back three and two 8’s failed hard yesterday.

Genuinely not sure that was the biggest problem (it was certainly A problem) but if you look at the goals, they're all a catalogue of poor decision making and individual cock ups...

[jimbo]

It was interesting that Phil Brown said that he couldn’t understand why Evatt didn’t change it after ten minutes. Like it was so obvious we were being out fought and that players selected couldn’t cope (apparently they mentioned this at that point during commentary) and he said that he would have changed it there and then to give us a chance.

I suppose the question is whether we have the changes that could have helped. Thomason and Maghoma I guess. But still feels sub optimal. Maybe we should have changed system. The one in front of the back three and two 8’s failed hard yesterday.

Genuinely not sure that was the biggest problem (it was certainly A problem) but if you look at the goals, they're all a catalogue of poor decision making and individual cock ups...

While the individual mistakes directly led to the goals, systematic problems put us under the defensive pressure that led to those opportunities. That first 25 was painful as we couldn’t get any kind of foothold. There were a few corners and free kicks in dangerous positions before that first goal and it definitely felt like it was coming.

Maybe another day we’d have picked up Wyke at the corner, but I think they’d have scored at some point in that first 20 the way we were playing overall.

I still think we picked up after 25 mins and then did ok until half time. That may be because Wigan eased off a touch being 2-0 up, but the damage was done. In the end Wigan still looked far more dangerous with the fewer chances they had.

[BWFC_Insane]

It was interesting that Phil Brown said that he couldn’t understand why Evatt didn’t change it after ten minutes. Like it was so obvious we were being out fought and that players selected couldn’t cope (apparently they mentioned this at that point during commentary) and he said that he would have changed it there and then to give us a chance.

I suppose the question is whether we have the changes that could have helped. Thomason and Maghoma I guess. But still feels sub optimal. Maybe we should have changed system. The one in front of the back three and two 8’s failed hard yesterday.

Genuinely not sure that was the biggest problem (it was certainly A problem) but if you look at the goals, they're all a catalogue of poor decision making and individual cock ups...

While the individual mistakes directly led to the goals, systematic problems put us under the defensive pressure that led to those opportunities. That first 25 was painful as we couldn’t get any kind of foothold. There were a few corners and free kicks in dangerous positions before that first goal and it definitely felt like it was coming.

Maybe another day we’d have picked up Wyke at the corner, but I think they’d have scored at some point in that first 20 the way we were playing overall.

I still think we picked up after 25 mins and then did ok until half time. That may be because Wigan eased off a touch being 2-0 up, but the damage was done. In the end Wigan still looked far more dangerous with the fewer chances they had.

It’s systemic but also inexcusable from individuals. Had we realised the situation and dug in and fought we may as Evatt says have then had our periods and it been a very different game.

We can all point to Sheehan and Morley as inadequate players generally in those situations but their abject lack of desire to do anything about it is shocking. The fact Morley in particular hid and clearly isn’t up for a fight can’t be excused by tactical issues. He’s not the only one. Back three all shirked it at times and Williams pulled out of challenges as did Iredale.

I agree with Brown but also think that any team that is sent out has to do more than the limp way we played and at least give their manager time to decide if changes will help.

[Worthy4England]

It was interesting that Phil Brown said that he couldn’t understand why Evatt didn’t change it after ten minutes. Like it was so obvious we were being out fought and that players selected couldn’t cope (apparently they mentioned this at that point during commentary) and he said that he would have changed it there and then to give us a chance.

I suppose the question is whether we have the changes that could have helped. Thomason and Maghoma I guess. But still feels sub optimal. Maybe we should have changed system. The one in front of the back three and two 8’s failed hard yesterday.

Genuinely not sure that was the biggest problem (it was certainly A problem) but if you look at the goals, they're all a catalogue of poor decision making and individual cock ups...

While the individual mistakes directly led to the goals, systematic problems put us under the defensive pressure that led to those opportunities. That first 25 was painful as we couldn’t get any kind of foothold. There were a few corners and free kicks in dangerous positions before that first goal and it definitely felt like it was coming.

Maybe another day we’d have picked up Wyke at the corner, but I think they’d have scored at some point in that first 20 the way we were playing overall.

I still think we picked up after 25 mins and then did ok until half time. That may be because Wigan eased off a touch being 2-0 up, but the damage was done. In the end Wigan still looked far more dangerous with the fewer chances they had.

For sure, plenty of elements of both, mate. For me, Baxter didn't have a great game, didn't really see any call to Iredale for the corner that resulted in a goal, then there was his awful clearance that gave them a throw that led to another...both were recoverable but it just felt like sloppy play under zero pressure.

[tankcopters n aids]

The defence was a shitshow, and Dear Ian please Let us not start Morley and Sheehan if we're against a quality midfield who have a bit of bite about them as these 2 roll over and get their belly tickled with the 1st glimpse of adversity. Pair of fannies.

Also did We really spaff a 6 figure sum for Dan? Doesn't look like he knows the bare basics of playing as a striker. Might be a decentish 5 aside player some day.

We'll win the next game 6-0 though. Onwards and upwards

[GhostoftheBok]

I think at this juncture on a forum, we're just supposed to say "ahh well." We could look for positives from yesterday, but I doubt that's getting to 20 pages.

Sure, but there's a difference between valid criticism of a crap performance and the panic-fannying we're seeing across social media today.

Apparently we lost 4-0 because we lacked tough midfielders with a winning mentality, but we've been being told by the same folk for ages that Sarcevic and MJ were that sort and they were getting hammered 4-0 in that fixture a couple of years ago.

Mentality and attitude matter, massively; but ability and suitability matter more.

You didn't have to take mentality into account to predict us conceding a load of goals against Wigan - you just had to look at how we were playing and the likely line-up.

It's a normal, explicable football result. Not some magical event. We put out a side that was likely to give up good chances to Wigan and they have players who will bury good chances. The breathlessness and hand-wringing is completely unnecessary.

[Bertie Wooster]

Apparently we lost 4-0 because we lacked tough midfielders with a winning mentality, but we've been being told by the same folk for ages that Sarcevic and MJ were that sort and they were getting hammered 4-0 in that fixture a couple of years ago.

Mentality and attitude matter, massively; but ability and suitability matter more

I'm struggling with this - so ability and suitability matter more, so what happened to ability and suitability yesterday ?

It's not that we lacked tough midfielders. we lacked a complete team of players with fight, passion, desire, bottle - when the going gets tough our players shrink & hide, if they are bottling 50/50's & being bullied all over the pitch - when does our ability and suitability against the better teams come through to win games like yesterday ?

[BWFC_Insane]

I think at this juncture on a forum, we're just supposed to say "ahh well." We could look for positives from yesterday, but I doubt that's getting to 20 pages.

Sure, but there's a difference between valid criticism of a crap performance and the panic-fannying we're seeing across social media today.

Apparently we lost 4-0 because we lacked tough midfielders with a winning mentality, but we've been being told by the same folk for ages that Sarcevic and MJ were that sort and they were getting hammered 4-0 in that fixture a couple of years ago.

Mentality and attitude matter, massively; but ability and suitability matter more.

You didn't have to take mentality into account to predict us conceding a load of goals against Wigan - you just had to look at how we were playing and the likely line-up.

It's a normal, explicable football result. Not some magical event. We put out a side that was likely to give up good chances to Wigan and they have players who will bury good chances. The breathlessness and hand-wringing is completely unnecessary.

Sorry but no. We played in an entirely unacceptable way. We shirked it. As Iles has said. This isn’t just fans or social media over reaction.

It’s not even just a tactical thing. Yes Maghoma is a better option than Morley but he’s defensively not there yet.

Bottling challenges, hiding from the ball, not as Evatt put it ‘doing the basics’ is a massive issue. You can’t ignore it because it happened and it’s all there in glorious replay to watch.

Our failure and the annoyance comes not from being out tacticed from Wigan though if Evatt is a tenth as good as you think that shouldn’t happen, but from the fact that bar Dempsey the rest simply weren’t up for the fight. And whilst we can argue about lots of things that team is not one that is getting beat by Wigan 4-0 on ability. So regardless of anything else the lack of desire or fight or balls in the side is a thing and it needs fixing.

Lack of physicality is a problem. We all know we need a Karl Henry type in midfield. It’s screaming at us and has since last season. The fact is that Sheehan and Morley aren’t it. You won’t beat good sides who come at you with those two. It’s fine if a side gives them space to play in. But a decent side will not. There are other sides in this league who can and will do what Wigan did.

Let’s not pretend that we lost because of some tactical failing. Had we been beaten 2-0 then we could look at that. Had we competed even we could look at that. But the basics of football is winning your individual battles. Of fighting when a team puts it on you. Of not being cowed. We were all those things yesterday and my concern is that of the starters only Dempsey came close to standing up tall to it. The rest were shameful in attitude and application.

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm struggling with this - so ability and suitability matter more, so what happened to ability and suitability yesterday ?

It's not that we lacked tough midfielders. we lacked a complete team of players with fight, passion, desire, bottle - when the going gets tough our players shrink & hide, if they are bottling 50/50's & being bullied all over the pitch - when does our ability and suitability against the better teams come through to win games like yesterday ?

Iredale and Jones have loads of good attributes, but neither is at their best doing man-to-man defending. We saw that against Fleetwood, with both of them getting rolled by powerful players. We knew Wigan had powerful wide players, so it was easy to anticipate that would happen again if we let it.

What we'd have to do to cope with that was cut out supply when Wigan isolated those wide centre backs. That means the forward pressure has to be right, to stop quality balls out from the back, and the midfield coverage has to be right to stop direct balls from inside to out.

With the midfield three we put out there was no way we were going to have that coverage in the midfield to cut things out. We saw that last season. In attack we lost Charles and none of the other options can press as well as he does, so we lost out there too.

That meant Wigan were able to isolate our defenders as and when they liked and we couldn't stop them finding those out balls at will.

No amount of heart or courage or whatever else we want to talk about is going to then prevent Wigan carving us open.

When the same thing happened to us against Barnsley we didn't get stuffed last season, because we had Toal and Johnston who could defend one-on-one. Toal's lack of ability with the ball at feet is a major weakness, but we'd not have had the same defensive issues yesterday with him in for Jones. We could have shifted our shape with one of Jones or Iredale in the back three, but with both in there Wigan had the run of the place.

We got a taste of it against Fleetwood and it was obvious it would be worse against Wigan if we didn't make some changes. There was no lack of mentality against Fleetwood, just clear personnel issues for specific situations.

A tweaked 11 could have won us that football game. A stronger mentality couldn't - we'd just have lost less badly.

[irie Cee Bee]

I looked forward to this game to see if we could handle the top teams in the Division, those who will come and not lie down. We failed last season, and we have again failed. It is a mad man who expects a different result from the same thing. Our team is basically the same but tactically I hope we would have by now found a way to play through the tougher teams. I was a mad man. Our central defense has glaring weaknesses. Jones should have been hooked for Forrester long before the third goal went in. He was awful. Iredale and Santos were found out to be not as good as we think against decent, strong attackers. We have not fixed our midfield. I personally would have started with Thomasson instead of Morely or Sheehan. At least he is not afraid to put a foot in.

Evatt needs to play the new players he signed and be less loyal to the system. Get in some mean players who can handle the football. We have a week to do so.

[GhostoftheBok]

Sorry but no. We played in an entirely unacceptable way. We shirked it. As Iles has said. This isn’t just fans or social media over reaction.

Marc's a journalist, not an analyst. I like the guy, but I don't care what he thinks about the flow of a game.

We absolutely did ply in an unacceptable way and we've started more than one game this season too slowly, but the tactical set up has allowed us to play into the game.

The reason we collapsed yesterday was because the set up was wrong and every player felt overrun. They should have coped better with that shock, but even the best players can panic in those situations.

Evatt didn't give them the platform to win that game yesterday, regardless of what he, Iles or anyone else wants to claim.