Burn after Reading. Reading (A) League 1. Saturday 16th September 2023. 3pm KO

[BWFC_Insane]

If he had us in the play-offs last season playing ugly defensive, back to front football, I'm convinced our fans would think more highly of him.

If we’d won the play offs I wouldn’t care how we won it. Instead we went out barely registering an attempt against Barnsley across 180 minutes. That’s fine. But we all said it was clear what was needed to improve from that. And in the main we haven’t.

[boltonboris]

If he had us in the play-offs last season playing ugly defensive, back to front football, I'm convinced our fans would think more highly of him.

If we’d won the play offs I wouldn’t care how we won it. Instead we went out barely registering an attempt against Barnsley across 180 minutes. That’s fine. But we all said it was clear what was needed to improve from that. And in the main we haven’t.

We would not have got there in the first place, playing the way some want us to

[BWFC_Insane]

If he had us in the play-offs last season playing ugly defensive, back to front football, I'm convinced our fans would think more highly of him.

If we’d won the play offs I wouldn’t care how we won it. Instead we went out barely registering an attempt against Barnsley across 180 minutes. That’s fine. But we all said it was clear what was needed to improve from that. And in the main we haven’t.

We would not have got there in the first place, playing the way some want us to

Little if any of what is being discussed revolves around how we play. I guess if anything does it’s the inflexibility. Allardyce came to Bolton thinking that you needed a team of 6ft physical specimens. He arrived looked at Johansen and thought ‘no’. Then a few months down the line realised he was superb and changed his views…it was too late for that player but he evolved over time.

The other point id make is that you are setting this up as an argument of ‘pure’ vs ugly football…but I mean I’m advocating that EVEN Pep has sacrificed hard running pressing forwards for Aguero and Haaland…and it’s much less about whether we play nice football or lump it to me and much more about Evatt’s ‘perception’ as to what is needed to get out this league. I wasn’t advocating for a huge target man but a striker who runs the channels and can score goals…a pleasing on the eye sort….and the blocker to that is seemingly evatts obsession with a striker being able to run and press bringing in Nlundulu presumably thinking he will do that - who gets injured trying to do it and likely can’t anyway….I mean we lost flair in Dapo because we couldn’t fit that sort of a player in. I’m sort of arguing that in reality at times Evatt is prioritising defensive players over people who can really hurt teams in the other direction.

[boltonboris]

No, I was setting up as an argument that you only think we can win having a bunch of older, more expensively assembled 6'2 journeymen to play your version of winning football, with zero consideration at the obvious pitfalls down the line.

You wanted us to be Wigan 2021 2.0 and just getting out of this division at any cost, saw them back in it, whilst almost going out of business in the process.

[BWFC_Insane]

No, I was setting up as an argument that you only think we can win having a bunch of older, more expensively assembled 6'2 journeymen to play your version of winning football, with zero consideration at the obvious pitfalls down the line.

You wanted us to be Wigan 2021 2.0 and just getting out of this division at any cost, saw them back in it, whilst almost going out of business in the process.

No not at all and that’s ridiculous. You have to get out of the division before you can be too concerned with what comes next though and I think any suggestion that we are now better able to manage the league up is pretty laughable.

If we were playing a team of 19/20/21 year olds in the main I think the development angle and getting better and improvement would be fair. You could argue that over two seasons the side would improve, get stronger and maybe be better placed to be the core of a championship side. A bit like happened at Sunderland.

But that’s not what’s happening here. I don’t see huge growth potential here. Mostly these players are what they are. Not in all cases but mostly. And the aim was to be automatically promoted this season with this group…that once again Evatt said was superb and we didn’t need new players…the whole development thing would work if it wasn’t that every January we are having to bring in a load more players and rip it up and start again.

If you want to talk Wigan they’ve assembled their squad under embargo with zero spent and the chaos of the summer they had. We have spent close to 1.5M across the last two windows and had the luxury of stability and I’d be hard pressed to say our squad is better or more likely than Wigans to go up, points deductions aside. And Wigan aren’t a bunch of 6’2 lumpers either….

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Thing is, I think Evatt has changed his concepts several times. Not just formations - he's also played with different types of strikers (Quigley vs Doyle vs Charles), wingbacks (Jones vs Fossey vs Bradley vs JDC), etc. He's always wanted a certain element of comfort on the ball and hard running off it, but within that broad idea he has been arguably more flexible than many managers, past or present. He's full of himself - as many successful managers are - but he's not an unswerving demagogue.

I'd also say that Pep and Klopp are "project" managers, so the word isn't necessarily poisonous. But like politics, most managerial careers end in failure.

I fear that he's dropped a large hairy bollock by not hiring enough players. I understand some permanent signings got away, and that's always going to happen. But after the success of Trafford and Bradley I expected us to have a LOT of loanee options - from nearly-readies like those lads to those who might be more conceivably be converted to permanents – and we've decided not to use any of them bar Maghoma (and Ashworth, sort of, although his dea's more of a Paul Robinson loan-to-purchase). That feels... weird considering not just how Traf and Brad made us better but also how Plymouth's promotion was supercharged by loanees. We can't compete with the chequebooks of Ipswich and Sheffield Weds but we could 'do a Plymouth'. For some reason, we chose not to - and I fear it's a mistake.

[BWFC_Insane]

Thing is, I think Evatt has changed his concepts several times. Not just formations - he's also played with different types of strikers (Quigley vs Doyle vs Charles), wingbacks (Jones vs Fossey vs Bradley vs JDC), etc. He's always wanted a certain element of comfort on the ball and hard running off it, but within that broad idea he has been arguably more flexible than many managers, past or present. He's full of himself - as many successful managers are - but he's not an unswerving demagogue.

I'd also say that Pep and Klopp are "project" managers, so the word isn't necessarily poisonous. But like politics, most managerial careers end in failure.

I fear that he's dropped a large hairy bollock by not hiring enough players. I understand some permanent signings got away, and that's always going to happen. But after the success of Trafford and Bradley I expected us to have a LOT of loanee options - from nearly-readies like those lads to those who might be more conceivably be converted to permanents – and we've decided not to use any of them bar Maghoma (and Ashworth, sort of, although his dea's more of a Paul Robinson loan-to-purchase). That feels... weird considering not just how Traf and Brad made us better but also how Plymouth's promotion was supercharged by loanees. We can't compete with the chequebooks of Ipswich and Sheffield Weds but we could 'do a Plymouth'. For some reason, we chose not to - and I fear it's a mistake.

Would Allardyce have said no to JCH or any equivalent high scoring option - I don’t think so. He’d have crawled over broken glass for them.

Saying ‘nah we aren’t interested as he doesn’t fit our way of playing’ doesn’t scream ‘build whatever the best team you can practically.

If someone offered me a goalscorer if I could afford them I’d snatch their hand off and build the team around them given the precious nature of such players.

For me and why I don’t like some of what Evatt says you have to build what you do round the best players available, not the other way round. At least at the level we are at. Sure Pep has the luxury at the top end but even he has changed City to get Haaland in after many seasons of discussion that such a player simply ‘wouldn’t suit city’. Instead he propelled them to be a better side.

[Bertie Wooster]

It's only my personal view but I don't think that many of our current squad of players are good enough to play regularly in the championship and that's the issue with the club's poor recruitment to date, as we would almost need a complete new team just to stay up should we ever get promoted from League 1.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I see JCH is the new Andranik. After all, he's scored <checks> two goals in eight games this season. I mean, obviously he's certain to score on Saturday, and some people are certain to take pleasure in it. But you'd think he was some sort of Poundland Haaland.

I'm not saying Evatt doesn't have a tactical plan. He does: it's to make chances by pressing high and winning the ball back (working - PPDA figures best in the division). If he thinks JCH wouldn't press to win the ball back, and that that would therefore ruin the plan, I can see his point.

As for Allardyce, he would have as many players as he was allowed to get, even if it turns out the club couldn't afford them. And then he'd play Jared Borgetti on the wing. Almost as if he was too beholden to a plan, perhaps?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It's only my personal view but I don't think that many of our current squad of players are good enough to play regularly in the championship and that's the issue with the club's poor recruitment to date, as we would almost need a complete new team just to stay up should we ever get promoted from League 1.

I agree that a fair few of our players seem like they might struggle with the step up. But then I'd have said the same about Ipswich, and they seem to be doing alright, considering their manager seems very wedded to a style of play.

[Bertie Wooster]

It's only my personal view but I don't think that many of our current squad of players are good enough to play regularly in the championship and that's the issue with the club's poor recruitment to date, as we would almost need a complete new team just to stay up should we ever get promoted from League 1.

I agree that a fair few of our players seem like they might struggle with the step up. But then I'd have said the same about Ipswich, and they seem to be doing alright, considering their manager seems very wedded to a style of play.

I appreciate that Ipswich had a higher budget than us, but I thought that last season they recruited several 'proven' experienced championship players - although I could be wrong as I often am. This could be why they are doing well this season ?

[BWFC_Insane]

I see JCH is the new Andranik. After all, he's scored <checks> two goals in eight games this season. I mean, obviously he's certain to score on Saturday, and some people are certain to take pleasure in it. But you'd think he was some sort of Poundland Haaland.

I'm not saying Evatt doesn't have a tactical plan. He does: it's to make chances by pressing high and winning the ball back (working - PPDA figures best in the division). If he thinks JCH wouldn't press to win the ball back, and that that would therefore ruin the plan, I can see his point.

As for Allardyce, he would have as many players as he was allowed to get, even if it turns out the club couldn't afford them. And then he'd play Jared Borgetti on the wing. Almost as if he was too beholden to a plan, perhaps?

He went and signed Anelka….he knew the need for quality up top. The fact Borgetti wasn’t all that great doesn’t change the fact that he spent years asking for a striker who scored goals.

It’s hardly an Andranik situation where JCH in his last two league one seasons scored 26 and 31 league goals. And the season in the middle of those got 12 in the tier above. If the argument is we are better off with Nlundulu, Jerome and JDB than JCH then I’m afraid I’m going to have to massively disagree!

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure I read Evatt saying (apart from stylistic fit) that JCH wasn't within our financial reach. If so, it's all rather moot.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I see JCH is the new Andranik. After all, he's scored <checks> two goals in eight games this season. I mean, obviously he's certain to score on Saturday, and some people are certain to take pleasure in it. But you'd think he was some sort of Poundland Haaland.

I'm not saying Evatt doesn't have a tactical plan. He does: it's to make chances by pressing high and winning the ball back (working - PPDA figures best in the division). If he thinks JCH wouldn't press to win the ball back, and that that would therefore ruin the plan, I can see his point.

As for Allardyce, he would have as many players as he was allowed to get, even if it turns out the club couldn't afford them. And then he'd play Jared Borgetti on the wing. Almost as if he was too beholden to a plan, perhaps?

He went and signed Anelka….he knew the need for quality up top. The fact Borgetti wasn’t all that great doesn’t change the fact that he spent years asking for a striker who scored goals.

It’s hardly an Andranik situation where JCH in his last two league one seasons scored 26 and 31 league goals. And the season in the middle of those got 12 in the tier above. If the argument is we are better off with Nlundulu, Jerome and JDB than JCH then I’m afraid I’m going to have to massively disagree!

The argument clearly isn't that, no matter how you try to reduce it thusly. I've said several times that I'm unsatisfied with our strikeforce. I've said even more times that Evatt has dropped a bollock by leaving our squad so thin it's practically translucent.

What *you* seem to be trying to say is that Evatt is too unwavering, and now you have the perfect undisprovable alternate reality that Clarke-Harris would definitely have scored a million goals and walked us to promotion.

As for dear old Sam, he signed Anelka for a club-record heap of money; eight months later, frustrated by not being allowed to spend more and bigger heaps of money, he walked out on us and "crawled over broken glass" to Newcastle. As happy as I was to enjoy his unforgettable triumphs here, I'm not sure he's the best moral compass - or financial advisor - to follow.

[The_Gun]

Yeah, this fixation on JCH is daft. He doesn’t really fit our style, would likely demand sky high wages on top of a big transfer fee, and potentially has a questionable attitude.

It’s easy for fans to massively oversimplify things, but the realities of constructing a football team are presumably not that straightforward.

[Bertie Wooster]

Yeah, this fixation on JCH is daft. He doesn’t really fit our style, would likely demand sky high wages on top of a big transfer fee, and potentially has a questionable attitude.

It’s easy for fans to massively oversimplify things, but the realities of constructing a football team are presumably not that straightforward.

I assume that you think that Nlundulu & Jerome do ?

[The_Gun]

Yeah, this fixation on JCH is daft. He doesn’t really fit our style, would likely demand sky high wages on top of a big transfer fee, and potentially has a questionable attitude.

It’s easy for fans to massively oversimplify things, but the realities of constructing a football team are presumably not that straightforward.

I assume that you think that Nlundulu & Jerome do ?

Were the only options JCH or those two?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I appreciate that Ipswich had a higher budget than us, but I thought that last season they recruited several 'proven' experienced championship players - although I could be wrong as I often am. This could be why they are doing well this season ?

Interesting theory, BW.

Last summer they signed a fair few players with decent Champo experience - striker Freddie Ladapo, midfielders Dom Ball and Mass Luongo, defenders Nathan Broadhead and Richard Keogh; of the five, three are regulars this season. But they also signed a few without Champo experience, not least spending a seven-figure fee on a left-back who'd only played 21 league games. Basically, they spent a lot on players.

We won't (or shouldn't) do that so I'm more interested in Plymouth, really. They're not doing as spectacularly - 14th so far - but right now I'd settle for that in a year's time. What worries me is that we haven't made the sort of gamechanging signings *they* did last summer - like Bali Mumba, Morgan Whittaker and Finn Azaz, all now back at the club, the first two on permanent deals.

[Bertie Wooster]

I appreciate that Ipswich had a higher budget than us, but I thought that last season they recruited several 'proven' experienced championship players - although I could be wrong as I often am. This could be why they are doing well this season ?

Interesting theory, BW.

Last summer they signed a fair few players with decent Champo experience - striker Freddie Ladapo, midfielders Dom Ball and Mass Luongo, defenders Nathan Broadhead and Richard Keogh; of the five, three are regulars this season. But they also signed a few without Champo experience, not least spending a seven-figure fee on a left-back who'd only played 21 league games. Basically, they spent a lot on players.

We won't (or shouldn't) do that so I'm more interested in Plymouth, really. They're not doing as spectacularly - 14th so far - but right now I'd settle for that in a year's time. What worries me is that we haven't made the sort of gamechanging signings *they* did last summer - like Bali Mumba, Morgan Whittaker and Finn Azaz, all now back at the club, the first two on permanent deals.

Totally agree and that's the point that I've been trying to make.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I appreciate that Ipswich had a higher budget than us, but I thought that last season they recruited several 'proven' experienced championship players - although I could be wrong as I often am. This could be why they are doing well this season ?

What worries me is that we haven't made the sort of gamechanging signings *they* did last summer - like Bali Mumba, Morgan Whittaker and Finn Azaz, all now back at the club, the first two on permanent deals.

Totally agree and that's the point that I've been trying to make.

You, me and a fair few others, brother.