Oh to be in Bolton....At Home to Carlisle United , Sat 7th Sept. 3-o'clock.

[Worthy4England]

we're now losing to Carlisle at home embarrassingly and we can't even question the manager's decisions or ask why we aren't improving?

You can question and ask all you like - it's what the forum's for, and I would fight for your right to do so. But equally, other people can question your questions. And so on.

From where I sit, not just here but elsewhere in the wider world, the insistence that "we're not allowed to say" X/Y/Z is a very weak proposition. Of course you're allowed to say it. You're even allowed to believe it. Doesn't make it so, though, because other people have their own opinions.

And, as ever, the most strident ones are usually the ones demanding instant change rather than patience and monitoring. Booing is much louder than sighing, hmming or even half-heartedly clapping. If it comes down to it, it's often louder than passionate clapping or cheering. It's just the way of things, and the interwebs are built upon it.

Current mood (mine):
Evatt? Done alright over the piece so far but right now not doing as well as I'd like.
The football? Occasionally very good but sometimes more ponderous than I'd like.
The window shopping? Got some good ones but not as many as I'd like.
The squad? Has some good players but not as many as I'd like (quantity or quality).
The future? Dunno, but everyone can extrapolate and guess from confirmation bias - again, doesn't make it right.

I’m absolutely aware that people can disagree. My issue is that rather than their view being ‘he’s doing well’ or ‘we can’t expect better’ it’s blind ‘trust the process’ or ‘look how well he’s done we can’t question that’.

I agree that we aren’t changing Evatt and that I don’t think we will get a better manager. What I want though as others are saying is that if we don’t go up this season that as in any business Evatt and co review why we failed look at those that succeeded and put in place changes to ensure we don’t fail again.

When you suggest Evatt needs to change some things you are met with ‘he will never change’ as some sort of a defence. If we fail and he can’t be expected to change things the next decade looks very bleak!

I think you might be over-reading into the "he will never change" being a defence. There are very clearly some things that he probably considered outside what he's likely to do. I'm not sure they're not a defence, they're observations of how likely [Insert Name here] think's some of the fans well meaning advise is likely to be followed. He's given his reasons for not signing JCH for example, why would we give those utterances some sort of lower value than "our aim is to get promoted?"

The biggies for me are:

1) He's not going to play like Rotherham did when they went up. So if that's your model, I doubt he's going there any time soon.
2) I doubt, he's going to buy players that don't fit where he wants to head with the team and the team "style" and team spirit, no matter how good some fans think they are in terms of being an answer to the prayer.
3) I don't think, he's going to buy his way out of a fix, unduly - this I commend.

Things I think he's likely to do include:

1) Upgrading the team over time but within the same broad shape - although it's fairly subjective at the minute as to whether we upgraded much over the summer - we certainly have a better owned RWB and GK than we had...
2) Tinker around the edges of his preferred formation, but barring the plague hitting maybe not moving too far away from it
3) Looking to try and spin a return on younger players - we probably only have Dapo in this bit of the list so far
4) Probably not move too far from possession being king.
5) Try and refine his "process" to be a better "process"

They're not defences of him, just IMO, he's much more likely to do the bottom 5 than the top 3.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I’m absolutely aware that people can disagree. My issue is that rather than their view being ‘he’s doing well’ or ‘we can’t expect better’ it’s blind ‘trust the process’ or ‘look how well he’s done we can’t question that’.

I agree that we aren’t changing Evatt and that I don’t think we will get a better manager. What I want though as others are saying is that if we don’t go up this season that as in any business Evatt and co review why we failed look at those that succeeded and put in place changes to ensure we don’t fail again.

When you suggest Evatt needs to change some things you are met with ‘he will never change’ as some sort of a defence. If we fail and he can’t be expected to change things the next decade looks very bleak!

This sounds to me like a generalisation – an oversimplification of a number of responses which, while not chiming with your worldview, may vary considerably.

I simply don't buy the assertion that each and every one of your correspondents is folding his arms, closing his eyes and saying "no – trust the process – suck it up."

That said, I'm not aware of what's being put forward on some other channels, where depth of argument is reduced by lack of space (eg the smoking hole where Twitter used to be) or, apparently, brains (eg BN comments). But certainly on here, the discussion is far more nuanced* than "Nope".

*Usually. Hopefully.

[The_Gun]

No one on here is using 'trust the process' as a defence of Evatt, so throw that one in the bin.

[Worthy4England]

Been a while since we've had a proper "Rose Tinters v Doom Mongers" thread!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Been a while since we've had a proper "Rose Tinters v Doom Mongers" thread!

Takes me back to Sammy Lee... who got 10 games

I mean we might as well - nowt else to do. It's a good pause to analyse our chances compared to recent L1 seasons but I'm suffering a surfeit or work and deficit of bothered.

What I would say is just a quick partial response to this interesting but flawed point BWFCi made the other day:

I think this league demands a consistency and an economic style to winning if you want to finish near the top. You need an efficient and effective team who roll out result after result with some variations to cope with whatever teams throw at you, an ability to win playing 7/10 every week and a particular sort of 'approach' to it. Its not a league where I think you can expect to flog key players to make the difference week in week out because you can't really afford an 'off day'. Compact, hard to score against, at least one superb goalscorer and pace/quality in wide areas - it is hard to see many sides going up that aren't in that category.

I'd say Ipswich are a similar style to us (if admittedly more expensive and more successful). And they had 10 players who featured in 38+ league games last season, with six starting 40+ games. So there's that... but what they probably did, with their bags of money, is have players they could sub in regularly. I'm remorselessly on record that Evatt boobed in recruiting too few players, and when you add in the insistence (which I understand more) on the high press, then it's even more of a head-scratcher.

[BWFC_Insane]

Been a while since we've had a proper "Rose Tinters v Doom Mongers" thread!

Takes me back to Sammy Lee... who got 10 games

I mean we might as well - nowt else to do. It's a good pause to analyse our chances compared to recent L1 seasons but I'm suffering a surfeit or work and deficit of bothered.

What I would say is just a quick partial response to this interesting but flawed point BWFCi made the other day:

I think this league demands a consistency and an economic style to winning if you want to finish near the top. You need an efficient and effective team who roll out result after result with some variations to cope with whatever teams throw at you, an ability to win playing 7/10 every week and a particular sort of 'approach' to it. Its not a league where I think you can expect to flog key players to make the difference week in week out because you can't really afford an 'off day'. Compact, hard to score against, at least one superb goalscorer and pace/quality in wide areas - it is hard to see many sides going up that aren't in that category.

I'd say Ipswich are a similar style to us (if admittedly more expensive and more successful). And they had 10 players who featured in 38+ league games last season, with six starting 40+ games. So there's that... but what they probably did, with their bags of money, is have players they could sub in regularly. I'm remorselessly on record that Evatt boobed in recruiting too few players, and when you add in the insistence (which I understand more) on the high press, then it's even more of a head-scratcher.

Ipswich won a fair few games with less possession than their opponents and played (iirc) a 4231.

If I was to point out our issues I’d say that our system relies on wing backs as outlets. It needs them to do a lot of running. When they tire or aren’t on top form we then only have the strikers as outlets and when one of them isn’t Charles we have no outlets other than Vic holding it up which isn’t really how we tend to play.

So tired legs or off form means we have no outlet. We see this in many games, PV second half, Carlisle all game. No real outlet consistently to get us up the pitch short of the wing backs expending effort.

Next issue is we press but have a terrible record of turning over possession especially high up the pitch. Primarily because our midfield off the ball is awful. We have as worthy has said a lot of midfield players who aren’t really very good midfield players. Some nice bits on the ball. Morley has regressed and looks like he’s playing in treacle. Sheehan is ‘nice’ but for me massively limited and Thomason is the only one who can effect the game off the ball but isn’t particularly good at getting round the pitch efficiently and tends to be better deeper. Maghoma is really green off the ball and CMG is a striker/winger at heart. We don’t win the ball. We don’t pressurise teams. Our best midfield presser was Lee who could effect possession but without him it’s basically Dempsey who again has to expend a huge effort. And then there isn’t the back up behind him, the Muamba and Holden to pick up/intercept cover the ground to keep re winning the possession.

Then up front we ask Charles to work his socks off till he can’t run and then have the equivalent of dads army and Pike to come on just hoping we are clear enough to not worry about the game slipping.

I dare say at our very best when the opposition give us that yard of space we are probably easily the best side in this division. I don’t think anyone else can get close to what we can do in those circumstances. But when we aren’t at our best or when a team says ‘we are going to low block and counter or step right onto you toe for toe’ and does either thing well - I think we lack the competent parts to consistently prosper. Not in a one off game either. But over a season. Dempsey and Charles can run their socks off and overcome a team. Can they do it again and again? Can the wing backs run the whole line and offer us the outlet enough?

For me that’s the issue. The roles within our setup rely on top form and fitness of particular player and there is no alternative when that isn’t possible. We don’t have a ‘play more conservative and win the game in a more compact less expansive and less hard running style’.

Ipswich second half of the season when I saw them did have games with lots of the ball but they also had an economy to them. They often weren’t having to go all out and waiting for the one or two chances taking them and then happy to play within their shape with two holding mids.

I feel we are very much an all or nothing team. It’s either hundred miles an hour everyone right on it or…nothing.

[Mar]

Sounds like a reasonable post there bwfci. Not that much that most would disagree with. If anything calling the midfielders not very good would probably be the only thing.

I think the lack of a plan b is evident. Being unable to win when the plan goes awry is what we're missing. We had the knack when we had Baka, Dapo and Bod, we were curtailed with a poor first half season.

If he can instill that level again, we'll go up. Were missing late winners and equalisers that get us over the line. Hell in that calendar year we got 47 points for the tail-end of that season plus 37 for the start of the next. Addressing that drop off would see us on 94 points rather than playoff form at around mid eighties.

Trouble is we've lost that ability to win late on.

I believe Evatt is capable of getting that form back, and indeed the late wins. The signs from Nlundulu and Jerome have made me question things, understandably so, but despite some strange decisions, they're still firmly rooted in a plan, which is more than I can say for most seasons in recent memory.

[BWFC_Insane]

Sounds like a reasonable post there bwfci. Not that much that most would disagree with. If anything calling the midfielders not very good would probably be the only thing.

I think the lack of a plan b is evident. Being unable to win when the plan goes awry is what we're missing. We had the knack when we had Baka, Dapo and Bod, we were curtailed with a poor first half season.

If he can instill that level again, we'll go up. Were missing late winners and equalisers that get us over the line. Hell in that calendar year we got 47 points for the tail-end of that season plus 37 for the start of the next. Addressing that drop off would see us on 94 points rather than playoff form at around mid eighties.

Trouble is we've lost that ability to win late on.

I believe Evatt is capable of getting that form back, and indeed the late wins. The signs from Nlundulu and Jerome have made me question things, understandably so, but despite some strange decisions, they're still firmly rooted in a plan, which is more than I can say for most seasons in recent memory.

The midfield isn't very good. Off the ball. And I'd say modern game, a midfield that can consistently win the ball back, cover ground and essentially shut down the opposition is pretty much essential. And ours is poor. As worthy says - I know people judge based on one or two nice pieces of technique or care more about how consistently they pass it sideways but for me the issue is and always has been for what Evatt wants to do we need one player who is like that with TWO proper actual midfield players. Thomason may actually be one if we he wasn't left to do it alone. But for me in a game like Carlisle or Wigan or even Stevenage (and yes he scored a nice goal) you are carrying Sheehan for the most part and Morley has gone backwards. Even Dempsey is more a sort of attacking midfield runner than someone you'd say is going to effect turnovers.

That aside I agree about goalscorers and especially off the bench its why in the summer I long argued for us to sign people who were goalscorers even if they offer less 'pressing' or whatever because what covers up for your weaknesses in a squad like we have? Goals. The fact remains that the way we're set up and play as I've described above and the inherent weaknesses within that - if we had natural goalscorers to come on who could bag from little in the way of a chance - we'd cover up a lot of our issues.

But its pretty fundamental that we have a system and style that relies on huge amounts of running - has an ineffective pressing style and is working key players into the ground. We should be able to rock up to a lot of games sit on top of their midfield, stamp out the opposition and wait for our chances. That is something I think every really good team needs in their locker as its probably the way you will win the greatest proportion of your matches. Not with wing backs playing heroically all match or relying on Charles never stopping or Dempsey doing similar...,..

[Worthy4England]

Yeah agree with a slight twist, I think the issue is goal scorers/game changers off the bench and having enough energy to bag in the second half, rather than our starting strikers. As I understand it, we'd like to be 3 up early in any game, who wouldn't. But one of the merits of this style of play, (and IE's said this plenty as have others) - is that you've shagged them out by minute 60, so you then run riot in the last 30. There have been 2 league goals after the 60 minute mark and one of those was an oggy.

Overall our return of goals in 19 games isn't overly shoddy. But in tight games and second halves we feel very vulnerable, even though Dion is typically not subbed until late 80+ minutes. So it's probably not ALL down to the non-scoring subs. Apart from 2 second half goals (one each for Vic and Dion inside 60 minutes), the other 11 they've bagged have all been under 43 minutes. There's been three other 2nd half goals - Iredale on 47. an OG on 73 and Sheehan's on 70 v Stevenage.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah agree with a slight twist, I think the issue is goal scorers/game changers off the bench and having enough energy to bag in the second half, rather than our starting strikers. As I understand it, we'd like to be 3 up early in any game, who wouldn't. But one of the merits of this style of play, (and IE's said this plenty as have others) - is that you've shagged them out by minute 60, so you then run riot in the last 30. There have been 2 league goals after the 60 minute mark and one of those was an oggy.

Overall our return of goals in 19 games isn't overly shoddy. But in tight games and second halves we feel very vulnerable, even though Dion is typically not subbed until late 80+ minutes. So it's probably not ALL down to the non-scoring subs. Apart from 2 second half goals (one each for Vic and Dion inside 60 minutes), the other 11 they've bagged have all been under 43 minutes. There's been three other 2nd half goals - Iredale on 47. an OG on 73 and Sheehan's on 70 v Stevenage.

I'm not convinced we are tiring the other side out so much as tiring ourselves out.

Impact subs (basically goalscorers) would I guess mean that when a game is tight either way we have a hope of bringing them on, and a goal killing it off or getting us ahead/level or whatever and changing momentum in a game. With fresh legs, but fresh legs who offer threat.

[Prufrock]

Goals would be nice, but the bigger issue is the drop off in quality. Once the first two go off we can't press or keep the ball anymore and suddenly end up playing back to front which we just aren't set up for. Even if they could just keep up the press and keep the ball we'd be much better, but we basically have nothing up top in the final 25, so we need to be comfortably in front by then, which obviously isn't always going to happen.

I do still think the shape is a problem. I've wanged on about the struggle with pressing high with a 352. The way we're getting around it is to run the forwards daft, which leads to the problems above, but I also think it's a an issue in how little product we're getting from all our pressing.

If it were me, I'd be looking to bin off two of the forwards for two wingers in Jan, and going 433.

[BWFC_Insane]

Goals would be nice, but the bigger issue is the drop off in quality. Once the first two go off we can't press or keep the ball anymore and suddenly end up playing back to front which we just aren't set up for. Even if they could just keep up the press and keep the ball we'd be much better, but we basically have nothing up top in the final 25, so we need to be comfortably in front by then, which obviously isn't always going to happen.

I do still think the shape is a problem. I've wanged on about the struggle with pressing high with a 352. The way we're getting around it is to run the forwards daft, which leads to the problems above, but I also think it's a an issue in how little product we're getting from all our pressing.

If it were me, I'd be looking to bin off two of the forwards for two wingers in Jan, and going 433.

4231. I'm convinced that is the system that is easiest to play and be sufficiently adaptable with. Full backs can bomb on. And not. As situation dictates. You can have a variety of types in the 3 depending on scenario.

Two midfield holders can be a passing type with a runner or two runners or even two sitters.....(probably not for an IE side).

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Drop this in here, as it's the active channel and style has been mentioned in passing: a fascinating Athletic piece on the current trend for players to put their studs on the ball, to attempt to trigger a press.

https://theathletic.com/4912608/2023/10 ... evolution/

The static element of the modern game is intriguing from a tactical point of view, even if it’s not everyone’s idea of fun in the stadium or watching at home on the sofa.

“Playing with a pause is massive at the moment,” says a coach at a leading Premier League club, who was speaking on condition of anonymity as he is not authorised to give an interview.

“As football has developed in the last 10 years, pressing and build-up has become the key feature. You watch a top-level game and a lot of it is about, ‘How well do you press the opponent’s build-up?’. So these more sophisticated ways of attracting pressure to take advantage… like Ederson, he’ll put the sole of his foot on the ball.

“It’s basically bait… who is prepared to let a ball be completely static? That’s why it’s quite interesting now when you watch games against Manchester City — and it will happen against Brighton — when the ball will just be completely still and nobody will press anyone. That’s also the next evolution: if we know they’re trying to do this to us, what do we do to counteract it?”

[TANGODANCER]

Been a while since we've had a proper "Rose Tinters v Doom Mongers" thread!

So we're all agreed then; .....COME ON YOU WHITES.....
...

[Worthy4England]

Just to cheer everyone up, we're getting 2 new big screens, to add to the 2 already! Whilst this doesn't get us any additional goals, we can, at least, all now see a replay of the ones we missed! I'm thinking Bertie will be well impressed! And speaking of Bertie, he's not having much success getting an answer to his question from Evatt supporters, "What has Evatt improved this year (over last)"

I'm neither an Evatt supporter nor a detractor at this point, but from that "sit on the fence" perspective, I'll have a go - but it feels fairly marginal...

Our front two have bagged 12? between them, after 11 games - that probably wasn't happening last season with a Kacha/Dion main two.

We've bought our own RWB, and he looks decent. (Question about both these RWB and GK comments - were we ever getting the equivalent of a Trafford/Bradley outside of a further loan - probably not, so I think he's done ok there)

We've bought a couple of keepers, they also seem ok.

We've not yet seen much of CMG and Maghoma - so it's a bit difficult to tell - we know CMG can be a handful, if we can use him to his strengths...

So at the top level, currently points v games, we're on exactly the same tally as at this stage last season - so sorta overall the same, rather than a progression - with CMG, Maghoma as cards still to be played (for me)

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Just to cheer everyone up, we're getting 2 new big screens, to add to the 2 already! Whilst this doesn't get us any additional goals, we can, at least, all now see a replay of the ones we missed! I'm thinking Bertie will be well impressed! And speaking of Bertie, he's not having much success getting an answer to his question from Evatt supporters, "What has Evatt improved this year (over last)"

I'm neither an Evatt supporter nor a detractor at this point, but from that "sit on the fence" perspective, I'll have a go - but it feels fairly marginal...

Our front two have bagged 12? between them, after 11 games - that probably wasn't happening last season with a Kacha/Dion main two.

We've bought our own RWB, and he looks decent. (Question about both these RWB and GK comments - were we ever getting the equivalent of a Trafford/Bradley outside of a further loan - probably not, so I think he's done ok there)

We've bought a couple of keepers, they also seem ok.

We've not yet seen much of CMG and Maghoma - so it's a bit difficult to tell - we know CMG can be a handful, if we can use him to his strengths...

So at the top level, currently points v games, we're on exactly the same tally as at this stage last season - so sorta overall the same, rather than a progression - with CMG, Maghoma as cards still to be played (for me)

Agree with this. I think good work on RWB and GK to fill huge holes. Forrester looks like a good addition. Wait and see on CMG/Mag. Otherwise, Vic is probably marginally more useful/productive. We're little different from last season in that when we're on it we'll beat anyone. The problem is I don't see us being on it more consistently and I can't see us grinding results out more often than last season without a big improvement in midfield and forwards not called Dion.

[BWFC_Insane]

Just to cheer everyone up, we're getting 2 new big screens, to add to the 2 already! Whilst this doesn't get us any additional goals, we can, at least, all now see a replay of the ones we missed! I'm thinking Bertie will be well impressed! And speaking of Bertie, he's not having much success getting an answer to his question from Evatt supporters, "What has Evatt improved this year (over last)"

I'm neither an Evatt supporter nor a detractor at this point, but from that "sit on the fence" perspective, I'll have a go - but it feels fairly marginal...

Our front two have bagged 12? between them, after 11 games - that probably wasn't happening last season with a Kacha/Dion main two.

We've bought our own RWB, and he looks decent. (Question about both these RWB and GK comments - were we ever getting the equivalent of a Trafford/Bradley outside of a further loan - probably not, so I think he's done ok there)

We've bought a couple of keepers, they also seem ok.

We've not yet seen much of CMG and Maghoma - so it's a bit difficult to tell - we know CMG can be a handful, if we can use him to his strengths...

So at the top level, currently points v games, we're on exactly the same tally as at this stage last season - so sorta overall the same, rather than a progression - with CMG, Maghoma as cards still to be played (for me)

Agree with this. I think good work on RWB and GK to fill huge holes. Forrester looks like a good addition. Wait and see on CMG/Mag. Otherwise, Vic is probably marginally more useful/productive. We're little different from last season in that when we're on it we'll beat anyone. The problem is I don't see us being on it more consistently and I can't see us grinding results out more often than last season without a big improvement in midfield and forwards not called Dion.

Spotting good players for me is probably not our issue. It’s getting the right ones to build an effective team.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Just to cheer everyone up, we're getting 2 new big screens, to add to the 2 already! Whilst this doesn't get us any additional goals, we can, at least, all now see a replay of the ones we missed! I'm thinking Bertie will be well impressed! And speaking of Bertie, he's not having much success getting an answer to his question from Evatt supporters, "What has Evatt improved this year (over last)"

I'm neither an Evatt supporter nor a detractor at this point, but from that "sit on the fence" perspective, I'll have a go - but it feels fairly marginal...

Our front two have bagged 12? between them, after 11 games - that probably wasn't happening last season with a Kacha/Dion main two.

We've bought our own RWB, and he looks decent. (Question about both these RWB and GK comments - were we ever getting the equivalent of a Trafford/Bradley outside of a further loan - probably not, so I think he's done ok there)

We've bought a couple of keepers, they also seem ok.

We've not yet seen much of CMG and Maghoma - so it's a bit difficult to tell - we know CMG can be a handful, if we can use him to his strengths...

So at the top level, currently points v games, we're on exactly the same tally as at this stage last season - so sorta overall the same, rather than a progression - with CMG, Maghoma as cards still to be played (for me)

Agree with this. I think good work on RWB and GK to fill huge holes. Forrester looks like a good addition. Wait and see on CMG/Mag. Otherwise, Vic is probably marginally more useful/productive. We're little different from last season in that when we're on it we'll beat anyone. The problem is I don't see us being on it more consistently and I can't see us grinding results out more often than last season without a big improvement in midfield and forwards not called Dion.

Spotting good players for me is probably not our issue. It’s getting the right ones to build an effective team.

I wasn't talking about spotting players. I was talking about fixing gaps and problems and more generally improvement. He's fixed the gaps left at GK and RWB in terms of quality, if not the quantity we'd like. I'd argue he's built an effective team and the problem lies with too much sameness in the squad. Evatt would argue CMG and Mag offer a difference, but I'm not convinced it is enough. The question was have we improved. I'd say a little depth at CB and a modest improvement in what Vic is offering. Otherwise we're much the same as last season. The team would be even more effective with players that can ask different questions when we're not on it.

[officer_dibble]

Carlisle 0 - 1 Leyton orient

Football!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Carlisle 0 - 1 Leyton orient

Football!

They also lost at home in midweek - 2-0 to Forest's kids in the No Longer Pizza Cup - with Simpson raging afterwards:

"I take absolutely nothing positive from it. I was hoping to continue that momentum from Saturday tonight and it's been an absolute sickener. I came into tonight's game with so much enthusiasm after Saturday's game from the performance of the players and the attitude of the supporters. I'm a bit stunned at how bad we've been and I can only thank the supporters who did turn up tonight and I wish the performance could have been better for them. It's probably our worst performance as a group since I came back to the club. Some of the performances... they looked like it was a real chore to have to play a game of football. It was so below what we expect. It was unacceptable. The fringe players haven't done themselves any favours, it's as simple as that. I'll be really honest, if I was choosing players on merit we wouldn't be able to fill the bench this weekend. There will be players on the bench on Saturday who probably don't deserve to be there."

Oh and also on Saturday, Stevenage lost 3-nowt at Blackpool, who are now a point behind us, albeit from a game more.