F.A.Cup...Re-play V Luton at Home. Tues 16th Jan 19-45

[knobpolisher]

Interesting, as always, to read other fans views on this subject.

I've also looked at what commitments our immediate league opposition have and we will have by some distance the most matches to play. If we failed in our goal of automatic promotion I fear the play offs will be a step too far.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don’t think that’s desirable. The league is what matters. It is what determines our future. Cups are an irrelevance right now.

Bollocks to that.

Winning things is never irrelevant in professional football. It's the whole point. It's why you go into the game, aside from the fact it looks after you financially. You don't look back on your career and think fondly of that time your bonus hit your account.

If we got into a tricky situation with fixtures we could prioritise the league at that stage, using the B Teamers. Why pre-empt it - and cost ourselves revenue?

A club our size will never win anything with that mentality, as there will always be concerns over the league for some reason or another. I've no intention of watching Bolton "prioritise the league" for the next 40 years, with little to no hope of ever winning the top division title.

People complain that our lads don't have a winning mentality, then demand we wilt out of the cups.

Again, bollocks to that.

That’s overly simplistic and misses the fact that even the top clubs in the game nowadays will prioritise competitions as a necessity.

Nobody will argue that an FA Cup 5Th round exit would be worth it to miss out on promotion.

We’ve already won the EFL trophy, it was great. Another Wembley trip would be nice but only if it came alongside promotion. If it didn’t then it would be a failure.

The position we are in - of course we should go and try and win every game. But we shouldn’t be risking the league to do so.

Try to win. But rest key players for the big games which are the league ones.

[Worthy4England]

Obviously, bigger things than football yesterday, but my immediate thought was "same team, they've just had a 30 minute warm-up"

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Interesting, as always, to read other fans views on this subject.

I've also looked at what commitments our immediate league opposition have and we will have by some distance the most matches to play. If we failed in our goal of automatic promotion I fear the play offs will be a step too far.

Pluses and minuses each way.

There's a lot to be said for momentum. If you're winning games you want the next one up immediately; and equally, if you're beaten (or held in a game you expected to win) you want the next one along as soon as possible.

Also, as Ghost says, if there's not much drop-off from your 1st XI to the standbys, it's a good chance to rotate and assess your options; although at this stage (potentially FA4 and beyond in one cup, two games from Wembley in the other) I doubt we'll be picking wholesale "B teams", we can pick horses for courses.

On the other hand... most of our rivals are unencumbered by the cups. Posh are the only others still in the Sherpa, unless you count 8th-placed Blackpool – as far as I can see, we and they are the only lower-division clubs still in three cups. Pompey, Derby, Oxford, Barnsley and Stevenage have all suffered various kinds of cup humiliations (Pompey and Stevenage losing to non-leaguers, Oxford shipping six at Cov, Barnsley thrown out of the FA Cup over an ineligible player, Derby losing in BOTH cups at home to 4th-tier teams) but that leaves them clear to focus.

The other thing "against" fixture congestion is that we play a demanding football style - the division's highest pressers - and Evatt's methods often require a lot of coaching, and grass-time is minimised if you're playing Sat-Tue-Sat...

I never want us to lose. If we lose a cup game, I'll get over it - but the earlier the round, the better...

[GhostoftheBok]

Again, though, the issue with "let's go out early" is that it misses the fact that these cup runs are worth hundreds of thousands in revenue. With the FA Cup, you add in the increased profile that translates into sponsorship and advertising revenue too.

Having the image of a club on the up is massive for us and winning the FA Cup gives us that in spades. It's national (and some international) attention.

Of course if it were as simple as "Lose this match and I'll give you promotion" everyone, including Evatt, is taking that. The reality is that's not how it works.

We are rotating players in the Trophy. The only players bombing along are the centre backs and that position is the least taxing.

"We've already won that one" is an awful rationalisation. It's precisely the experience of winning it that makes me want to do it again - it's also the revenue and impact from last season that makes everyone at the club clearly want it too. Up to £1m, a showpiece for the club and a big day for the players. You don't bin that off for the possibility you'll get dodgy fixtures. You keep winning and if we get to a stage where we need to give way somewhere we have the numbers in the Bs to facilitate that.

This is a fully functional football club now. It's only just started to get there, but we're no longer bare bones. Success brings fixtures. Hopefully you have to get used to it.

This fearful mentality needs to get in the bin. Embrace it. You skip to work when it's going like this. Showing up in the morning is a joy and you work with a smile on your face.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Aye.

I don’t want us to lose. Wembley would be good (if hard to top last year). Cup runs make legends at this place.

[BWFC_Insane]

Revenue in the cup vs 7-8M from promotion.

The fact is that nobody is suggesting we don’t try and win the games. Just that the team that played against Accy if we do have two elevens is the sort of team you put out in the cups. If they are good enough to win then great but it’s not the end of the world if not.

If you play Charles against Blackpool and he’s injured and out for a few months then that’s disastrous compared to losing a cup game.

There isn’t a guarantee we go up but we’ve put ourselves in a position where we are as things stand top of the league based on PPG. It’s not an outside chance. And the thing that could derail it is a crazy fixture list coupled with injuries.

We need to do what we can to mitigate those two things. One by bringing players in and two by using the squad. And the priority has to be the league if there is a decision over who to start in a particular game.

[GhostoftheBok]

Revenue in the cup vs 7-8M from promotion.

It's a false dilemma.

As I said, we have the depth to put out competitive teams on all fronts - so long as we get a couple of bits of business done.

Playing those cup games doesn't make us weaker in the league, it makes us stronger.

We get to keep minutes in the legs of the entire squad, with everyone fit and firing. That actually makes us more, not less, resilient to injuries; because lads don't need the lead-in time to step up if a key player gets a knock.

Look at Ashworth. He absolutely is not ready to go cold into the league, but that 90 minutes against Accy will have moved him a lot closer. Same with Bod, Cam and others.

Being in all these comps makes our league campaign stronger, not weaker.

[knobpolisher]

Hopefully the forecast potentially snowy conditions don't cause a postponement and add to our fixture congestion

[Mar]

I don’t think that’s desirable. The league is what matters. It is what determines our future. Cups are an irrelevance right now.

Bollocks to that.

Winning things is never irrelevant in professional football. It's the whole point. It's why you go into the game, aside from the fact it looks after you financially. You don't look back on your career and think fondly of that time your bonus hit your account.

If we got into a tricky situation with fixtures we could prioritise the league at that stage, using the B Teamers. Why pre-empt it - and cost ourselves revenue?

A club our size will never win anything with that mentality, as there will always be concerns over the league for some reason or another. I've no intention of watching Bolton "prioritise the league" for the next 40 years, with little to no hope of ever winning the top division title.

People complain that our lads don't have a winning mentality, then demand we wilt out of the cups.

Again, bollocks to that.

That’s overly simplistic and misses the fact that even the top clubs in the game nowadays will prioritise competitions as a necessity.

Nobody will argue that an FA Cup 5Th round exit would be worth it to miss out on promotion.

We’ve already won the EFL trophy, it was great. Another Wembley trip would be nice but only if it came alongside promotion. If it didn’t then it would be a failure.

The position we are in - of course we should go and try and win every game. But we shouldn’t be risking the league to do so.

Try to win. But rest key players for the big games which are the league ones.

You claim his take is overly simplistic, i'd argue the same could be said of your opinion here:

Revenue in the cup vs 7-8M from promotion.

The fact is that nobody is suggesting we don’t try and win the games. Just that the team that played against Accy if we do have two elevens is the sort of team you put out in the cups. If they are good enough to win then great but it’s not the end of the world if not.

It's not the League or the Cup. If it was, we'd've binned the cups off long ago. Throwing cups to satiate our league ambitions was the folly of a certain Gary Megson. Losing to 10 men Wigan directly after going out the cup certainly didn't do us any favours directly after it, and undoubtedly Megson's legacy has failed to recover ever since.

There's no point wrapping our players up in cotton wool if we're worried about our league position. The players have to go out there and give it their best, they can't do that if they're worried about the next match. They need to take each game as it comes and hope the winning momentum stays.

Last thing I want to be seeing is Evatt coming out with Megson-esque comments like this:
"I've said all along our main aim is to retain our place in the Premier League. ... You only have to take a look at the players in the dressing room because we certainly didn't come here to get beat"

(resting Gardner, Steinsson, Andy O'Brien, Gardner, Nolan, Campo, Cohen, Diouf, Rasiak, SKD and Taylor certainly isn't going out to Lisbon to win)


So in short, screw Megson and screw this whole sacrificing the cups. Lets win what we can, when we can and show exactly what this team is capable of.

[truewhite15]

I don’t think that’s desirable. The league is what matters. It is what determines our future. Cups are an irrelevance right now.

Bollocks to that.

Winning things is never irrelevant in professional football. It's the whole point. It's why you go into the game, aside from the fact it looks after you financially. You don't look back on your career and think fondly of that time your bonus hit your account.

If we got into a tricky situation with fixtures we could prioritise the league at that stage, using the B Teamers. Why pre-empt it - and cost ourselves revenue?

A club our size will never win anything with that mentality, as there will always be concerns over the league for some reason or another. I've no intention of watching Bolton "prioritise the league" for the next 40 years, with little to no hope of ever winning the top division title.

People complain that our lads don't have a winning mentality, then demand we wilt out of the cups.

Again, bollocks to that.

That’s overly simplistic and misses the fact that even the top clubs in the game nowadays will prioritise competitions as a necessity.

Nobody will argue that an FA Cup 5Th round exit would be worth it to miss out on promotion.

We’ve already won the EFL trophy, it was great. Another Wembley trip would be nice but only if it came alongside promotion. If it didn’t then it would be a failure.

The position we are in - of course we should go and try and win every game. But we shouldn’t be risking the league to do so.

Try to win. But rest key players for the big games which are the league ones.

You claim his take is overly simplistic, i'd argue the same could be said of your opinion here:

Revenue in the cup vs 7-8M from promotion.

The fact is that nobody is suggesting we don’t try and win the games. Just that the team that played against Accy if we do have two elevens is the sort of team you put out in the cups. If they are good enough to win then great but it’s not the end of the world if not.

It's not the League or the Cup. If it was, we'd've binned the cups off long ago. Throwing cups to satiate our league ambitions was the folly of a certain Gary Megson. Losing to 10 men Wigan directly after going out the cup certainly didn't do us any favours directly after it, and undoubtedly Megson's legacy has failed to recover ever since.

There's no point wrapping our players up in cotton wool if we're worried about our league position. The players have to go out there and give it their best, they can't do that if they're worried about the next match. They need to take each game as it comes and hope the winning momentum stays.

Last thing I want to be seeing is Evatt coming out with Megson-esque comments like this:
"I've said all along our main aim is to retain our place in the Premier League. ... You only have to take a look at the players in the dressing room because we certainly didn't come here to get beat"

(resting Gardner, Steinsson, Andy O'Brien, Gardner, Nolan, Campo, Cohen, Diouf, Rasiak, SKD and Taylor certainly isn't going out to Lisbon to win)


So in short, screw Megson and screw this whole sacrificing the cups. Lets win what we can, when we can and show exactly what this team is capable of.

Gardner was so rested, he was rested twice apparently

And resting Rasiak might have been more of a blessing for us - I'd have been quite happy to see him "rested" for the remainder of the season...

But joking aside, I totally agree. If there was a cast-iron guarantee that throwing away our cup runs would land us promotion, then sure, lets put out our second string vs Luton. But that's not, nor has it ever been, the way football works.

Let's go out to wim every game we play between now and May, whatever the competition, whoever the opponent.

[GhostoftheBok]

So in short, screw Megson and screw this whole sacrificing the cups. Lets win what we can, when we can and show exactly what this team is capable of.

It's worse than Megson. I dislike him, but he was shitting his pants in the Premier League and Europe. We are a small club at that level, whereas we're not in League One.

Evatt has embraced the size of this club. He's not shied away from the history and a huge part of that is being a cup club.

You can't turn that on and off like a light switch. You have to get the culture going and last season's Wembley win was huge for that. You can't now tell the same set of players that that cup they won doesn't matter - they've been there and know how much it meant to them (and the fans).

You also can't say, "I believe you can get to the Premier League" and also "You're incapable of winning the FA Cup." You have to push them to believe in themselves.

Any season where you turn up to work in football and you don't have an aim to win something, pack up and find a new gig, You don't have it. This season our aims should have been to win the league and win the Motor Cup. Whilst we're in the FA Cup our aim should always be to win the next game until we either lose or run out of people to beat.

Far too many fearful, negative voices in our fan base. If we lose tomorrow then we lose. We'll have taken a Premier League side to a replay and there's no shame in that. Personally I hope we batter them.

[BWFC_Insane]

The conversation is so distorted by straw men and historical situations taken out of context. Why cite Megson when we could cite 6 or 7 years of Allardyce the most successful manager in modern Bolton Wanderers modern history and his data showing that you need to make 5/6 changes minimum in midweek cup games to also be able to perform the following league game.

Talk of resting players in the third round given the fact we are a league one side needing to be promoted this year, above all else, for financial and other reasons is equivalent to ‘throwing a glorious FA cup final win’ is predictably ridiculous.

In three years time nobody will remember or care whether we beat or don’t beat Luton. And I’m not expecting us to give the game up - just protect key players. But everyone will remember and it will massively impact our future depending upon where we end up in the league.

Failure to win promotion would be dire.

[GhostoftheBok]

The conversation is so distorted by straw men...

Talk of resting players in the third round given the fact we are a league one side needing to be promoted this year, above all else, for financial and other reasons is equivalent to ‘throwing a glorious FA cup final win’ is predictably ridiculous.

Oh, the irony.

[Worthy4England]

Hopefully the forecast potentially snowy conditions don't cause a postponement and add to our fixture congestion

There's plenty of it where I am, around 9 miles from ground...couple of inches at least and it's still falling...

[BWFC_Insane]

The conversation is so distorted by straw men...

Talk of resting players in the third round given the fact we are a league one side needing to be promoted this year, above all else, for financial and other reasons is equivalent to ‘throwing a glorious FA cup final win’ is predictably ridiculous.

Oh, the irony.

Given we are such a big club at this level, and should be demonstrating that I’m looking forward to us splashing the cash to take the stars away from our smaller promotion rivals.

Given that’s exactly what a big club would do. Can’t wait to be watching Mason-Clark at Carlisle,

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Ian wants it.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/2 ... up-chance/

The league is the priority of course but we enter every competition to get as far as we possibly can. That hasn’t changed.

I am not going to sacrifice anything. We will give it our all and do our best to achieve what we want to achieve this season.

You have to earn everything in this game and we will find that out over the next few months. I think this squad is capable of matching those targets, though, and we are viewing the FA Cup as a positive. It isn’t a luxury. We are in it to win.

Taking part and all that, great, but I get my kicks from winning football matches, and I think the fans are the same.

Is it possible we win the FA Cup? Unlikely. But we are going to give it all we can and that starts against Luton.

[BWFC_Insane]

Hopefully the forecast potentially snowy conditions don't cause a postponement and add to our fixture congestion

There's plenty of it where I am, around 9 miles from ground...couple of inches at least and it's still falling...

I can’t really see it being called off given the situation we are in but also fitting a game in before the 4th round. Or would they draw straws?

I guess it depends mainly on travel - how safe it is on approaches etc. The pitch won’t be an issue.

[Mar]

The conversation is so distorted by straw men and historical situations taken out of context. Why cite Megson when we could cite 6 or 7 years of Allardyce the most successful manager in modern Bolton Wanderers modern history and his data showing that you need to make 5/6 changes minimum in midweek cup games to also be able to perform the following league game.

Time for a bit of self reflection i'd imagine when you claim strawman arguments and citing 6 or 7 years of Allardyce. Sure Allardyce can evidently point to the impact on performance in the next game, but what he can't necessarily do is say that our league performance improved off the back of resting players.

In terms of Megson, I cited him because his was the most egregious example of sacrificing games for the League. I don't think mentioning Allardyce's 1-0 exit from the league cup in 2002 to Bury would resonate as much. Speaking of rotation for that game, we followed that resting up with a 2-0 defeat away at Middlesbrough no less than 3 days later.

20011211 - Spurs 6-0 defeat in the QF followed up by 0-0 with Charlton and no wins until Feb

On the flip side, 27th January 2003 saw us lose to Aston Villa in the cup fielding a strong team but buoyed by reaching the Cup Final, they went on to get a 2-1 win at Charlton no less than 4 days later. If anything is going to tire the team out it'll be pressing for a cup final, but that doesn't mean that the league form is going to be dramatically impacted.

To add to that, Allardyce rested players for the Tranmere FA Cup 2nd leg (20041214) and subsequently lost to Man City in the League and then Middlesbrough in the Cup final. Winning and losing can be habitual.


There's other examples:
2006 Charlton 1-0 defeat followed up by 4-0 loss to Man Utd 4 days later, and only 1 win in the next 7 games. Prior to that we'd won 5 out of the previous 6.



I'm a fan of rotating players and keeping them fresh, but the whole notion of resting players to keep them fit for the League whilst sacrificing games doesnt do us any favours. Go out to win.

[GhostoftheBok]

Given we are such a big club at this level, and should be demonstrating that I’m looking forward to us splashing the cash to take the stars away from our smaller promotion rivals.

Given that’s exactly what a big club would do. Can’t wait to be watching Mason-Clark at Carlisle,

Derby aren't a big club in League One unless they buy Charles.

Amazing, it sounds equally moronic either way you phrase it. Well done.