No Pirates up the Irwell. Home to Bristol Rovers, Sat 16th Dec, 3-0'clock

[dave the minion]

But watching your captain half arse it and sulk before dropping another clanger through lazy uncommitted play - as an example is something I can’t take.

Do you really think he decides to just not be bothered and sulk? do you really?

Or do you think maybe he just has an off day, compared to usual when he plays brilliantly? Have you ever played any sport at all when one day, for no real reason, you're just not on it? doesn't mean you can't be arsed or you're sulking, just means you're having a bad game...

Professional sports people wouldn't last 5 mins if they just sulked - managers would spot it a mile off.

[GhostoftheBok]

So I’m not buying the ‘he knows what they need to hear’.

You've been not buying that Evatt knows his job for years, though. Yet here we are, consistently improved every season.

For a lazy, sulky, non-league player I'd say Santos does alright.

Equally, for a clueless manager who loses the dressing room every time a player you like leaves, Evatt's doing a decent job.

We'll probably do better than you think we will. As has been the case every season.

[TANGODANCER]

Facts:
I love the Whites and have done all my life, but some things are unavoidable. We are a good side, just not playing like one for ninety minutes at the moment. Ten men managed to do what eleven couldn't.

The fact we were two down due to sloppy play before Rico got sent off can't be denied and speaks for itself. All those games unbeaten then we lose two in a row (we were at home to Portsmouth and maybe that can be excused, but yesterday was a big blooper. Our defence were pants down grand style.

Man marking went out with Stan Mathews. Our defenders behave like spooks in a bad film "shadowing" players and dodging about behind post boxes. We just don't learn. And what's with all the pointing and meaningless gesticulating? We must be one of the worst teams in the league at throw-ins. Ball watching is fine in a T.V. snooker game, but not on a football pitch.

The truth is reflected in the score and we lost it before the big fella left.( Still not sure that was a red . Our front men were getting blatantly charged into and shirt dragged all game.) Nobody ever said we were bad, just very careless and way too casual.

So put it behind us and make someone pay, starting with Leyton Orient.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I didn't see the game; I took a rare chance to get out into the countryside for a walk with my son, which both of us found typically great for mental health. The tranquillity was of course occasionally disturbed by pings from the workaday world, including our football team.

As I say, I didn't see it, so I can't comment on the game in particular. What I would say is that our system – which is clearly capable of brilliant, game-winning, record-breaking football – seems worryingly predicated upon Ricardo Santos playing well. If he loses his 1v1, we are in huge trouble. And if he's sent off... well, there seems no alternative.

I was hoping Toal would grow into being Santos's back-up, or eventual replacement due to ageing/sale. Maybe he still will - all players are constantly changing, for better or worse. It's worrying that he seems to have hit a wall, and if he's truly a weak point in the system I'd ask whether he'd be better at RCB - or out of the team while he works on the weakness.

I'm not one to rail against a substitution which rebalances a team. But subbing Charles seemed an odd choice. It's not as simple as "defender for forward = negative" but we were a goal down and Dion, despite his flaws, is blindingly obviously our best chance of a goal. Also, didn't Evatt say he'd actually rather play a back four? Wouldn't it make sense, at home and behind to a lower-table (albeit newly-managed) opponent, to risk a back four with overlapping fullbacks rather than sacrifice a front man? I understand "do Plan A better" but are we really that beholden to the back three?

[Prufrock]

Lordy, we're onto "body language" now. Might as well see what Raymond Domenech is up to and sell all the Capricorns.

We've been on a flying run, then we've got beaten away against a very good side and then had a shocker to back it up. Yesterday should have been the bounce back, next week certainly has to be now.

The Dion sub was madness IMO, and I don't really buy that we were all over them second half. They sat off at 2-0 (as they had at 1-0) and were happy to counter. We figured out the defensive bit a bit more so they weren't all over us, but apart from that spell of corners we didn't look like hurting them.

But we're still a minimum of 9 points up on the same games last year (which we halfway I think is more instructive than "after the same number of games"). Need to dust ourselves down and go on another run, and the fixtures are decent for a bit.

Also hoping it's bounces us out of this "we're ok and don't need signings". JDC has been right off the boil for a little while. Whether that's him finding his level after a good start or he's just knackered I don't know but it's an issue. We've gone to free scoring to one league goal in 3.

I think it's time for Forrester to get a run. He's better defensively than Jones, and better on the ball than Total.

And god did we miss Sheehan. Morley is miles away at the moment.

And Bod is playing well personally when we're on the ball while being hapless off it and the team not clicking. Back to Vic and Dion for me.

[BWFC_Insane]

But watching your captain half arse it and sulk before dropping another clanger through lazy uncommitted play - as an example is something I can’t take.

Do you really think he decides to just not be bothered and sulk? do you really?

Or do you think maybe he just has an off day, compared to usual when he plays brilliantly? Have you ever played any sport at all when one day, for no real reason, you're just not on it? doesn't mean you can't be arsed or you're sulking, just means you're having a bad game...

Professional sports people wouldn't last 5 mins if they just sulked - managers would spot it a mile off.

There is a long history of players who sulk or have games they can’t be bothered to turn up for. Or when conditions are tougher wilt. And a long history of players who when the going gets tough really step up.

It’s often what separates the best from the not so good.

It’s why at 27 years of age santos has never played above league one level despite possessing the physical characteristics to have done so.

It’s a common mistake problem. If he could maintain a greater level of consistency he’d easily be a league up. But its mentality, attitude, desire and all those things that are the problem.

[BWFC_Insane]

Lordy, we're onto "body language" now. Might as well see what Raymond Domenech is up to and sell all the Capricorns.

We've been on a flying run, then we've got beaten away against a very good side and then had a shocker to back it up. Yesterday should have been the bounce back, next week certainly has to be now.

The Dion sub was madness IMO, and I don't really buy that we were all over them second half. They sat off at 2-0 (as they had at 1-0) and were happy to counter. We figured out the defensive bit a bit more so they weren't all over us, but apart from that spell of corners we didn't look like hurting them.

But we're still a minimum of 9 points up on the same games last year (which we halfway I think is more instructive than "after the same number of games"). Need to dust ourselves down and go on another run, and the fixtures are decent for a bit.

Also hoping it's bounces us out of this "we're ok and don't need signings". JDC has been right off the boil for a little while. Whether that's him finding his level after a good start or he's just knackered I don't know but it's an issue. We've gone to free scoring to one league goal in 3.

I think it's time for Forrester to get a run. He's better defensively than Jones, and better on the ball than Total.

And god did we miss Sheehan. Morley is miles away at the moment.

And Bod is playing well personally when we're on the ball while being hapless off it and the team not clicking. Back to Vic and Dion for me.

Bodvarrson works harder off the ball than Adeboyejo who came on and stood and watched stuff happening.

This idea is for the birds. Adeboyejo is a problem not a solution.

[dave the minion]

No he's not. At all. Not one bit.

Ask the 15 or so teams we played against in our unbeaten run whether they thought he was a problem for us or an asset (and no, I haven't checked how many of those games he played in, but you get my point....)

I assume you are aware that all you seem to do is wait in the wings for things to not go perfectly and then pounce on individuals to vilify on a rota?

Answer me this, is there a single player in the squad who you haven't picked out at some point as not being fit to wear the shirt?

[GhostoftheBok]

Ask the 15 or so teams we played against in our unbeaten run whether they thought he was a problem for us or an asset (and no, I haven't checked how many of those games he played in, but you get my point....)

The Adeboyejo and Charles partnership has lost twice in the league this season in 15 starts together.

I think the only striker to lose all his starting games is Bod.

I think Nlundulu is 2 wins in 3 when he's started.

[officer_dibble]

Peterborough looking strong now. And now Stevenage (ffs!) are above us. What a difference a week makes. Hopefully shown Evatt and Markham we need to make some signings at the right time. That’s as positive as I can be.

[DJBlu]

Peterborough looking strong now. And now Stevenage (ffs!) are above us. What a difference a week makes. Hopefully shown Evatt and Markham we need to make some signings at the right time. That’s as positive as I can be.

One win and we're back in 2nd.

We've got the game in hand to do it. Once everyone is on the same amount played then we can start to believe/panic.

[The_Gun]

I was at a family do on Saturday so was unable to watch, and actually completely forgot we were playing until gone 4 o'clock, at which point I checked Livescore and was genuinely shocked at what I saw.

I fully expected us to bounce back after Monday and record a convincing victory, so losing again is a right kick in the bollocks. My hope would be that it removes any complacency regarding the strength of the squad which might have been creeping in during our good spell.

Saturday now firmly falls into the 'must win' category, otherwise we will have fully derailed a train which was making nice progress towards the automatics.

[Worthy4England]

It is funny, how the people getting the real pelters are the same people who normally get them, when we lose. But if I look back at Saturday's game, others who are getting little criticism were also bloody poor. Thommo was hitting plenty of strays. The press up front didn't really work, they looked like the team with space and time and were pretty comfortable to let us onto the low block. For me, you don't change your winning team in the League, unless they stop winning or someone is injured. For people not in that XI, they just need to wait their chance.

But as others have said, win the game in hand and we're back in the top 2.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It is funny, how the people getting the real pelters are the same people who normally get them, when we lose. But if I look back at Saturday's game, others who are getting little criticism were also bloody poor. Thommo was hitting plenty of strays. The press up front didn't really work, they looked like the team with space and time and were pretty comfortable to let us onto the low block. For me, you don't change your winning team in the League, unless they stop winning or someone is injured. For people not in that XI, they just need to wait their chance.

But as others have said, win the game in hand and we're back in the top 2.

Can I ask, Worthy - is the first bolded sentence linked to the next two in your thought process? ie, is that a reference to Bod replacing Vic? (That is after all the only unforced change from the winning team to the recent vintage; Iredale covered Randell's tendinopathy absence v Exeter and Oxford, made way again at Pompey and returned v Rovers.)

The whole Bod v Vic thing appears to make people's blood boil on both sides. But you have to say, we've been a poorer side since that change. And yet, fine margins... if Bod's header at Fratton sails in – or the keeper still saves it but Dion doesn't fluff the rebound - are we looking at the same thing? Or is Bod just not qualified to do the job Vic does, which (perhaps entirely coincidentally) was in a very winning team?

[BWFC_Insane]

It is funny, how the people getting the real pelters are the same people who normally get them, when we lose. But if I look back at Saturday's game, others who are getting little criticism were also bloody poor. Thommo was hitting plenty of strays. The press up front didn't really work, they looked like the team with space and time and were pretty comfortable to let us onto the low block. For me, you don't change your winning team in the League, unless they stop winning or someone is injured. For people not in that XI, they just need to wait their chance.

But as others have said, win the game in hand and we're back in the top 2.

Can I ask, Worthy - is the first bolded sentence linked to the next two in your thought process? ie, is that a reference to Bod replacing Vic? (That is after all the only unforced change from the winning team to the recent vintage; Iredale covered Randell's tendinopathy absence v Exeter and Oxford, made way again at Pompey and returned v Rovers.)

The whole Bod v Vic thing appears to make people's blood boil on both sides. But you have to say, we've been a poorer side since that change. And yet, fine margins... if Bod's header at Fratton sails in – or the keeper still saves it but Dion doesn't fluff the rebound - are we looking at the same thing? Or is Bod just not qualified to do the job Vic does, which (perhaps entirely coincidentally) was in a very winning team?

A poorer side in 2 games where the functional components that caused us to be poorer generally were not the front two.

You can't IMHO say 'oh its cos we played Bodvarrson that's why Santos turned into a pub player for two games in a row'.

It doesn't make sense. At all. And its a massive stretch. And this idea that Victor works that much harder is not borne out by reality at the actual game he took stick when coming off the bench fresh from the crowd for standing and watching where Bod was chasing!

[Worthy4England]

It is funny, how the people getting the real pelters are the same people who normally get them, when we lose. But if I look back at Saturday's game, others who are getting little criticism were also bloody poor. Thommo was hitting plenty of strays. The press up front didn't really work, they looked like the team with space and time and were pretty comfortable to let us onto the low block. For me, you don't change your winning team in the League, unless they stop winning or someone is injured. For people not in that XI, they just need to wait their chance.

But as others have said, win the game in hand and we're back in the top 2.

Can I ask, Worthy - is the first bolded sentence linked to the next two in your thought process? ie, is that a reference to Bod replacing Vic? (That is after all the only unforced change from the winning team to the recent vintage; Iredale covered Randell's tendinopathy absence v Exeter and Oxford, made way again at Pompey and returned v Rovers.)

The whole Bod v Vic thing appears to make people's blood boil on both sides. But you have to say, we've been a poorer side since that change. And yet, fine margins... if Bod's header at Fratton sails in – or the keeper still saves it but Dion doesn't fluff the rebound - are we looking at the same thing? Or is Bod just not qualified to do the job Vic does, which (perhaps entirely coincidentally) was in a very winning team?

Yes. Connected. I think our MF needs space to breath, to get the best out of them. They get that, much better with an effective press up-front. The minute MF is exposed more than it needs to be, they're then able to move the defence around more than we'd want.

That's what I thought I saw on Saturday, whilst recognising that Bod showed some decent touches that can be pointed at as "look what he added." For me, if you're not doing job one, then he really has to be scoring to compensate...

[boltonboris]

I don't think we needed to make the striker for defender change when we did. We actually looked comfortable and could have waited it out until half-time

That said, Evatt quite rightly cannot legislate for a defensive mistake costing us another goal, but when you're chasing a game you ideally want your goalscorer on the pitch. I could see what Evatt wanted. He thought Bodvarsson could be a better out ball and hold it up for a little longer, but he really did not do very well at that.

What I would say, is that we gave a very, very good account of ourselves in the 2nd half with 10 men and I'm pleased with that. Mostly a day to forget, but F**k me, we have some doom merchants following us. People shouting for the managers head at Full-time and our Captain is back to being the worst player to ever have played the game 2 matches after they were outraged that he didn't win Player of the Month

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The whole Bod v Vic thing appears to make people's blood boil on both sides. But you have to say, we've been a poorer side since that change. And yet, fine margins... if Bod's header at Fratton sails in – or the keeper still saves it but Dion doesn't fluff the rebound - are we looking at the same thing? Or is Bod just not qualified to do the job Vic does, which (perhaps entirely coincidentally) was in a very winning team?

A poorer side in 2 games where the functional components that caused us to be poorer generally were not the front two.

You can't IMHO say 'oh its cos we played Bodvarrson that's why Santos turned into a pub player for two games in a row'.

It doesn't make sense. At all. And its a massive stretch. And this idea that Victor works that much harder is not borne out by reality at the actual game he took stick when coming off the bench fresh from the crowd for standing and watching where Bod was chasing!

As I say, I didn't see this game, which is why I'm ascertaining opinions. Yours is noted and filed.

To your latter note: I've already said I worry somewhat that our system is over-reliant on Santos winning 1v1s. It also seems to rely on winning the ball back as soon and as high as possible – where we have league-leading statistics, or did last time I checked, which was before the change up top. I like Bod as a player and I have some doubts about Vic, so I have no strongly-backed horse in this race, except Bolton Wanderers, who appear to have fallen apart in the last two games, and we're all wondering why that is. You're entitled to your own ideas – apparently resurfaced old beliefs about the abilities of the skipper and manager. Clearly both need to keep learning, improving and, in the long run, proving you wrong.

[BWFC_Insane]

The whole Bod v Vic thing appears to make people's blood boil on both sides. But you have to say, we've been a poorer side since that change. And yet, fine margins... if Bod's header at Fratton sails in – or the keeper still saves it but Dion doesn't fluff the rebound - are we looking at the same thing? Or is Bod just not qualified to do the job Vic does, which (perhaps entirely coincidentally) was in a very winning team?

A poorer side in 2 games where the functional components that caused us to be poorer generally were not the front two.

You can't IMHO say 'oh its cos we played Bodvarrson that's why Santos turned into a pub player for two games in a row'.

It doesn't make sense. At all. And its a massive stretch. And this idea that Victor works that much harder is not borne out by reality at the actual game he took stick when coming off the bench fresh from the crowd for standing and watching where Bod was chasing!

As I say, I didn't see this game, which is why I'm ascertaining opinions. Yours is noted and filed.

To your latter note: I've already said I worry somewhat that our system is over-reliant on Santos winning 1v1s. It also seems to rely on winning the ball back as soon and as high as possible – where we have league-leading statistics, or did last time I checked, which was before the change up top. I like Bod as a player and I have some doubts about Vic, so I have no strongly-backed horse in this race, except Bolton Wanderers, who appear to have fallen apart in the last two games, and we're all wondering why that is. You're entitled to your own ideas – apparently resurfaced old beliefs about the abilities of the skipper and manager. Clearly both need to keep learning, improving and, in the long run, proving you wrong.

The idea that you fix the issues by bringing Vic in is for the birds.

I found it odd that we took Charles off - I mean as said above I'd have left a back 4 till half time and then re-assessed but I'd have left Charles on if not and taken Bod off instead because Charles can cover more ground. I'm not really convinced that Evatt's 'we were vindicated second half' is true, we huffed and puffed but always felt like BR knew the game was done and they could absorb it.

On Saturday I thought Bod was one of our better players tbh (as he was first half against Portsmouth) and the issues in both games for me were elsewhere....Charles miss - midfield, back three, wing backs.....

If Victor is somehow critical to our performances he certainly didn't show it coming off the bench fresh on Saturday. Quite the opposite. But there is an oddity where Santos has an absolute nightmare is unprofessional - gets sent off and some won't even discuss that instead are blaming a striker who comes in.

[TANGODANCER]

But there is an oddity where Santos has an absolute nightmare is unprofessional - gets sent off and some won't even discuss that instead are blaming a striker who comes in.

And the condemned man ate a hearty breakfast..