Murder on the Orient Express. Home to Leyton O, Sat 23rd Dec, 15:00

[truewhite15]

In the end it was just luck. Not some massively determined effort the dividing line on the day was just a bit of luck.

This is where this line of bollocks gets frustrating, Insane.

You so often demanded we see lads throwing their bodies on the line and putting in tackles, as a sign of their character and determination. Other teams come to the Bok and do that and you point them out as having qualities we lack. We get that yesterday and because it doesn't fit the narrative it's "just luck."

We showed precisely the characteristics at the end of that game that you so often claim we lack, but because we've just shown it the goal post has to move.

At this stage it's just comical. It's like some footballing "god of the gaps" argument. As soon as we show what you demand, it's no longer what we need to show.

What he said.

[dave the minion]

He’s bobbins. I mean he’s handy if you just lump balls at him because he can fight a defender. I think that’s his game. And if we played like that he’d be first choice. But asking him to play in a side that is playing football? He just isn’t very good.

Come on fella, its Christmas - can't you give it a rest picking on players who are "not fit to wear the shirt" and actually support the team you're meant to be a fan of for at least a few days.....


Anyway, so when we went on that record-breaking run of not losing / keeping clean sheets / scoring the most goals in a calendar year / 2 manager's of the month etc etc etc, it was clearly despite Vic playing, not in any way, shape or form with him positively contributing?

All those records, all those fantastic performances, with us effectively playing with 10 men.....

So, that leaves us with a couple of scenarios:

Maybe - just maybe - Vic is a solid, hard-working player who brings the best out of those around him, or

Vic is rubbish and we tore the league up with 10 men - which, incidentally, would suggest the 10 others were consistently displaying significant mental strength to get through all those games, showing heart & character against adversity, which funnily enough doesn't fit the narrative you've been trying to peddle about them all season?

I'm confused.......

[BWFC_Insane]

In the end it was just luck. Not some massively determined effort the dividing line on the day was just a bit of luck.

This is where this line of bollocks gets frustrating, Insane.

You so often demanded we see lads throwing their bodies on the line and putting in tackles, as a sign of their character and determination. Other teams come to the Bok and do that and you point them out as having qualities we lack. We get that yesterday and because it doesn't fit the narrative it's "just luck."

We showed precisely the characteristics at the end of that game that you so often claim we lack, but because we've just shown it the goal post has to move.

At this stage it's just comical. It's like some footballing "god of the gaps" argument. As soon as we show what you demand, it's no longer what we need to show.

We were 3-0 up at home to Leyton Orient. And you are making out that Leyton Orient made a tactical change that we couldn’t counter. You are suggesting that it’s both to with mentality but that teams can step onto our midfield and it’s then impossible to counter.

It’s nothing to do with being 3-0 up and pissing about. It’s that Bolton wanderers at home to Leyton Orient is such a difficult game we should be thankful that Forrester headed off the line and we won because they couldn’t put one of their goalmouth scrambles in. Having only the other day described us as so dominant compared to Bolton teams that reached the heights of the sport.

It was blindingly obvious that had we maintained the intensity and not started playing like it was already Christmas Day we’d have seen that game out comfortably. We switched off and did that before half time.

The fact we switched on and scrambled like mad at the end is good but doesn’t remove the problem of it happening initially. And it’s not like we had control either at the end. We relied on luck to see out the win.

[DJBlu]

Gonna add its another start for JDB and no goals for him and we've conceded another 2.

Got an assist though.

He was outstanding first half along with Charles. Easily our best strike partnership and it’s not close. The quality he has on the ball embarrasses Adeboyejo. How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

A mystery that fans are actively questioning now. At last.

I don't think so. If JDB doesn't score soon then he'll just be in the same bracket as Victor is in yours. We've scored less with him in the side against league one teams and conceded in every game.

Victor is stronger and it showed when he came on in his brief spell. The thugs came on at half time and we had the excellent hold up play that kept us under pressure. Go figure.

[BWFC_Insane]

Gonna add its another start for JDB and no goals for him and we've conceded another 2.

Got an assist though.

He was outstanding first half along with Charles. Easily our best strike partnership and it’s not close. The quality he has on the ball embarrasses Adeboyejo. How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

A mystery that fans are actively questioning now. At last.

I don't think so. If JDB doesn't score soon then he'll just be in the same bracket as Victor is in yours. We've scored less with him in the side against league one teams and conceded in every game.

Victor is stronger and it showed when he came on in his brief spell. The thugs came on at half time and we had the excellent hold up play that kept us under pressure. Go figure.

Victor came on had a good chance, embarrassed himself with it. No goals scored.

Bod on we scored three.

Facts speak for themselves.

[DJBlu]

Gonna add its another start for JDB and no goals for him and we've conceded another 2.

Got an assist though.

He was outstanding first half along with Charles. Easily our best strike partnership and it’s not close. The quality he has on the ball embarrasses Adeboyejo. How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

A mystery that fans are actively questioning now. At last.

I don't think so. If JDB doesn't score soon then he'll just be in the same bracket as Victor is in yours. We've scored less with him in the side against league one teams and conceded in every game.

Victor is stronger and it showed when he came on in his brief spell. The thugs came on at half time and we had the excellent hold up play that kept us under pressure. Go figure.

Victor came on had a good chance, embarrassed himself with it. No goals scored.

Bod on we scored three.

Facts speak for themselves.

JDB has missed with every shot he's taken in the past three games. I don't know where you're going with the binary comparison.

I'm not saying JDB is worse or better I'm saying he's been used at the wrong times. Victor on at halftime or earlier than he was brought on and I don't think we concede two.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Selective facts. Always ones specially selected to enhance and argument whilst ignoring all other facts, however pertinent.

[Worthy4England]

16 goals in November. None conceded.

Facts speak for themselves..

[officer_dibble]

We just need a new striker, better than both of them!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Lucky lads. Good HT from them, bringing on a walking yellow card. Unlucky not to get a point.

But what do points make? We'll have 'em thanks.

Five-goal ding-dong-do!!!

What I thought I saw was a game of two (uneven) halves, Jeff.

There was no ding dong. We were two leagues in front for 12 minutes. They hardly put a glove on us for 45. Neither ding nor dong.

Then we watched them do similar to us (in a different lower intensity sorta way) for 35 minutes, before clinging on.

Two sides not managing to tackle each other for 45 minutes each is not a ding-dong.

GOD YOU’RE HARD TO PLEASE

[GhostoftheBok]

We were 3-0 up at home to Leyton Orient. And you are making out that Leyton Orient made a tactical change that we couldn’t counter. You are suggesting that it’s both to with mentality but that teams can step onto our midfield and it’s then impossible to counter.

Or, what I actually said was that fixing it should have been an automatic reaction from the players and the manager shouldn't have needed to force the fix out of them. But don't let reality get in the way of your religious ecstasy.

Why is something we had sorted last season now broken? Especially when Evatt was able to fix it himself when he got hold of them during a stoppage. My suspicion is that it's because Johnston and Santos weren't in the 11 and Iredale is still struggling one-on-one after doing his knee. Can't prove it, but that's my view. I think the fix had to be forced on them and once it was we got better. It should have been automatic.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Victor came on had a good chance, embarrassed himself with it. No goals scored.

Bod on we scored three.

Facts speak for themselves.

Well, carefully selected facts. Ignoring the facts about which strike partnership took us to the top of the league - and which one featured in the poor performances v Pompey (zero goals) and Bristol Rovers (zero goals).

Me, I like Bod. But questions remain. It’s not zero-sum.

Adeboyejo. How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

A mystery that fans are actively questioning now. At last.

To be clear on this bolded part - you’re glad that some fans are dissatisfied? Sounds to me like you’d rather be right than happy.

Well, I genuinely wish you a happy Christmas - and I hope Vic scores the winner at Lincoln.

[GhostoftheBok]

Also, can we talk about Adeboyejo "embarrassing himself"? He ran onto a pass, hit it first time and a defender blocked it.

What on earth is wrong with you? Embarrassing himself? FFS.

Bod has taken 12 shots this season in the league. No goals.

Vic has taken 16 shots. 6 goals.

Confirmation bias is a real thing.

[Worthy4England]

Lucky lads. Good HT from them, bringing on a walking yellow card. Unlucky not to get a point.

But what do points make? We'll have 'em thanks.

Five-goal ding-dong-do!!!

What I thought I saw was a game of two (uneven) halves, Jeff.

There was no ding dong. We were two leagues in front for 12 minutes. They hardly put a glove on us for 45. Neither ding nor dong.

Then we watched them do similar to us (in a different lower intensity sorta way) for 35 minutes, before clinging on.

Two sides not managing to tackle each other for 45 minutes each is not a ding-dong.

GOD YOU’RE HARD TO PLEASE

[BWFC_Insane]

I think the ‘ding dong do’ factor comes down to a desire to reduce transitions. Liverpool Arsenal yesterday was full of transitions and it felt like two teams going at each other. Whereas a lot of our games feel like we are either completely in control and passing it about or the other team are on top. There is little in between where it is ‘end to end’.

Evatt says we aren’t a transitional side which is fine. But I think a lot of the people who find how we play boring basically crave a more transitional game which adds pace and dynamic play and some unpredictability to it all.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I think the ‘ding dong do’ factor comes down to a desire to reduce transitions. Liverpool Arsenal yesterday was full of transitions and it felt like two teams going at each other. Whereas a lot of our games feel like we are either completely in control and passing it about or the other team are on top. There is little in between where it is ‘end to end’.

Evatt says we aren’t a transitional side which is fine. But I think a lot of the people who find how we play boring basically crave a more transitional game which adds pace and dynamic play and some unpredictability to it all.

Yeah, I think this is fair.

As someone who's been a fan, a player, a coach and a football writer, I'd rather my teams be in control than out of control. But if it's a chance between "transitional" and "defending for 90 minutes" I'd take the transitional

[GhostoftheBok]

To be clear on this bolded part - you’re glad that some fans are dissatisfied? Sounds to me like you’d rather be right than happy.

Santos, Johnston, Jones, Thomason, Morley, Sheehan, Dempsey, Charles...I could go on and list almost every player at the club. It's a very much incomplete list of the players Insane has said weren't good enough to play in League One for us.

Vic should be honoured to make the cut.

Is there a player left Insane hasn't written off at some point?

Is it just Toal and Bodvarsson? Or has he gone after those two as well?

[Worthy4England]

I think the ‘ding dong do’ factor comes down to a desire to reduce transitions. Liverpool Arsenal yesterday was full of transitions and it felt like two teams going at each other. Whereas a lot of our games feel like we are either completely in control and passing it about or the other team are on top. There is little in between where it is ‘end to end’.

Evatt says we aren’t a transitional side which is fine. But I think a lot of the people who find how we play boring basically crave a more transitional game which adds pace and dynamic play and some unpredictability to it all.

Yeah, I think this is fair.

As someone who's been a fan, a player, a coach and a football writer, I'd rather my teams be in control than out of control. But if it's a chance between "transitional" and "defending for 90 minutes" I'd take the transitional

Aye, which is, I think, why I'm struggling to be entertained rather than saying "this is shite." It's not really a complaint, just how I see it. I'm happy, generally with our trajectory and year on year improvement. But for me some football stylistically can come across as pretty drab. To Insane's point, Liverpool Arsenal was a decent match up that had tackling in it - mind I think TAA would've been off to the King's Head after that three man overlap, miss...

[BWFC_Insane]

To be clear on this bolded part - you’re glad that some fans are dissatisfied? Sounds to me like you’d rather be right than happy.

Santos, Johnston, Jones, Thomason, Morley, Sheehan, Dempsey, Charles...I could go on and list almost every player at the club. It's a very much incomplete list of the players Insane has said weren't good enough to play in League One for us.

Vic should be honoured to make the cut.

Is there a player left Insane hasn't written off at some point?

Is it just Toal and Bodvarsson? Or has he gone after those two as well?

There is a difference between ‘not very good at football’ and not good enough to play for us.

And a difference between one player clearly being a much better footballer than the other.

And I could go on. But good enough depends on context.

[GhostoftheBok]

Aye, which is, I think, why I'm struggling to be entertained rather than saying "this is shite." It's not really a complaint, just how I see it. I'm happy, generally with our trajectory and year on year improvement. But for me some football stylistically can come across as pretty drab. To Insane's point, Liverpool Arsenal was a decent match up that had tackling in it - mind I think TAA would've been off to the King's Head after that three man overlap, miss...

But then Arsenal quite often show up and look precisely like we do against most sides in League One; because it takes two sides to make that kind of game.

Arsenal under Arteta were accused of being boring. I think the term used in one paper was "the doughnut of sadness" or some such, about them passing around the outside too much and not having a centre or directness.

They were also accused of having a soft side when pressed.

The advantage Arsenal now have is phenomenally dangerous wide players who teams cannot play one-on-one (Saka and Martinelli) and genuine attacking pace.

They also have that breaking/carrying mid in Rice.

Basically exactly what we've been aware we need for a couple of seasons and tried to secure in the summer.

Evatt brought in Nlundulu, CMG and Paris to begin to give us those kinds of elements; but failed to get Wilson and Baccus.

Hopefully more and more people will get what they need as the squad evolved. We're far from being the finished article, if such a thing ever exists in football.