Murder on the Orient Express. Home to Leyton O, Sat 23rd Dec, 15:00

[TANGODANCER]

Very early days, but we can't go a full week with nothing to talk about, so....

Can Hercule Evatt solve the mystery on the train (ing ground ) and take the villains to task before the Greater London puffer steams into Horwich Parkway? Will there be a hiccup via Parriss for the southerners, and will justice be done and parity restored?
Will Thomason the tank engine be waiting in reserve in case of breakdowns? Will Lady Sharron get her pearls back without having to mortgage the silver cabinet or sell the precious Papa John heirloom, and will Hercule Evatt be manager of the day? Will the home fans get an early Christmas present in time for the Feast of Steven?

All the questions will be answered in the Toughsheet Chronicle come next Saturday but investigations are welcome. All aboard...

[GhostoftheBok]

Hugely important we win this one. Not "get a result" or "stop the rot with a draw." Win.

We have a dozen games to rack up points in now. We play 2 top 10 sides in the next 12 games and after that we have a really nasty run-in, so we need momentum.

We can't have a prolonged blip at this point in this particular season, because there's no run of gimme games in the late season to carry us along. It's a really tough away fixture every other game until the end of the campaign once we're through these next 12.

[TANGODANCER]

Doesn't matter who they are or how they play, we have to be better. There are times when unlocking low blocks just aren't an option, in which case we'll just have to get men forward and bomb their box. Last two games we've spent chasing the ace, so let's get ahead and let them do the chasing. Easier said than done, yes, but that's what we have to do. Fighting uphill is nothing new to us, so let's pull a few crackers and send the Orient southward bound. We're no turkeys...,

[TANGODANCER]

Nicholaldo posted on the Pirates thread but relevant here...
"Iles is reporting this morning that Bod should be fit for Saturday."

[Mar]

I think the performance is crucial here, not necessarily the result.

The last couple of games have been far below our usual standards in terms of performance levels, passing and movement was nowhere near what we've become accustomed to and the results show that. Sure for our long term prospects would improve with the win, but in terms of getting back into the flow I think this'll end up yielding longer term results.

I'm keen on us getting the win, but i'd feel much more confident about our long term prospects if we battered Orient in possession and shots but lost. It'd be frustrating, but we'd be closer to where we need to be than a scrappy 1-0 win where we're still facing the same issues we've had in the last few games.

3 games without a win isn't the end of the world, in 96-97 we had 8 games without a win.

[Prufrock]

I can see where you're coming from but I think we really need the win. 4 games without a win (even with mitigating circumstances for 2 of those) is a big knock. I would take any win to get back on track but kind of feel like we need both.

We've scored 1 league goal, a scrappy consolation set piece, in 3 games.

Got to be up and at them. I'd bring Vic back in, Dion has only played about 90 mins since November, front foot and go.

[GhostoftheBok]

If we perform well we will beat Orient. We need to see both.

[TANGODANCER]

I think the performance is crucial here, not necessarily the result.

Have to disagree Mar, if promotion is our target. If not, then fine, but the club lives on its fans and they won't be happy losing. Neither will the team and we need to have both happy. What's the point of playing brilliant football when you lose? That's what the players will think and they'd soon be looking for pastures new.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

We've scored 1 league goal, a scrappy consolation set piece, in 3 games.

And if you don't score, you don't win.

Pat cliché but I think it's particularly true that when we go in front we often go on to do very well indeed. Had we scored at Oxford in that dominant second half, I doubt we'd have conceded. Had Dion not missed his sitter (or the keeper not saved Bod's boncer the rebound came from) it's a totally different game, even at the home of the leaders - they'd have tested us but I'd have backed us. And had we scored first rather than Rovers, again I'd have been confident, even with 10 - we beat Fleetwood despite Dion's red and we drew with a threatening Posh team despite Geth going before half-time.

It's not quite "whoever scores first wins" as it was earlier in Evatt's reign and for a whole chunk of Parky's, but it's still very important. Partly because of our style - very comfortable in passing possession - which is great when you're 1-0 up but often precisely what the oppo wants when you're 1-0 down.

[Mar]

I think the performance is crucial here, not necessarily the result.

Have to disagree Mar, if promotion is our target. If not, then fine, but the club lives on its fans and they won't be happy losing. Neither will the team and we need to have both happy. What's the point of playing brilliant football when you lose? That's what the players will think and they'd soon be looking for pastures new.

My point was that if we end up doing what City did in a repeat of the Man City v Bolton 2005/06 match, I won't be disappointed as there will be positives to take from it.

We need a confident performance with a return to normality. That usually results in a win, but if we don't manage that and get the next best thing then I won't be disheartened.

[GhostoftheBok]

The issue we have is that our style of play requires calmness. You don't see Pep shouting and screaming before a game to rile his players up, he wants them calm and focused. Vinnie Jones headbutting his locker wouldn't benefit us very much, nor would Nobby Stiles pinning his teammates to the wall if they were having a bad game. That can mean it's difficult to lift your levels mid game, though. It's hard to switch gears mentally. City have players with an edge and Pep is very capable of laying down the law, but then we've seen Evatt do the same.

It's all very well being sat in the stands insisting that there's something somehow unmanly about playing through sets and trusting a game plan, but it's clearly winning football.

When teams can sit in and put 10 in the box it can be frustrating. When teams come out and press us hard and players lose their composure it can be galling. By and large, though, we're improving all the time.

Broadly speaking, we have to shoot ourselves in the foot to lose games. That's a very good position to be in, because the longer we work on this the less often we'll cock it up.

When we score first and the confidence flows we tend to make teams look amateurish. Constantly threatening their box and rarely troubled by their odd foray forward thanks to the imperious Santos. If we can find Vic a bit more and cover the channels a bit better then the second half of the season will go very well. If not, we may fall just short. Regardless, we're better now than we were 12 months ago and we'll continue that trend. I'm hopeful it'll be enough this term and I hope the push will start Saturday.

[GhostoftheBok]

My point was that if we end up doing what City did in a repeat of the Man City v Bolton 2005/06 match, I won't be disappointed as there will be positives to take from it.

We need a confident performance with a return to normality. That usually results in a win, but if we don't manage that and get the next best thing then I won't be disheartened.

I'm not sure I'd like to watch Toal to play the role of Dicky Dunne.

[Worthy4England]

It's all very well being sat in the stands insisting that there's something somehow unmanly about playing through sets and trusting a game plan, but it's clearly winning football

Just my perspective. I've pretty much always sat on the "winning a sporting match is pretty much its purpose" - some folks would say, for them it's about entertainment rather than winning, don't have a problem, how they enjoy their money is up to them. So I should feel pretty satisfied overall, the last season and a half.

But, I'm struggling (as I sometimes do watching City cruise to an inevitable 2-0 on the telly). At times it feels like most games are a non-contest. Not all our fault as teams often rock-up low block and try and nick one. We spend our time in possession looking to execute the move that will unlock it, we might do that once or twice. Job done. 3 points.

The other way round, when we slip up, it often feels like that's going to happen on the day, because our "calmness" doesn't allow us to get motivated, we've laid out the plan, it's not working well and all we can do is bring another calm head out, following the same (broad) plan.

We point to all the good stats, rightly so, but there are a few lurking under that, that I suspect might be the cause of my angst and somewhat lack of enthusiasm. We have the joint second lowest won tackle count - not hugely surprising for a team who are possession based. But, I think it calculates to something like 9 a game. It's almost been removed. There's a bit of a journey from Vinne Jones to where we're at, that can still keep it "manly."

It would be tricky to define many games as a "ding dong doo."

This isn't meant as a criticism nor complaint. I want us to go up. This year (understanding no one's going to give us that, we'd have to earn it etc.). But I do find us tough to watch, sometimes even when we're winning. Feels more "production line" than blood, sweat and tears...

[GhostoftheBok]

This isn't meant as a criticism nor complaint. I want us to go up. This year (understanding no one's going to give us that, we'd have to earn it etc.). But I do find us tough to watch, sometimes even when we're winning. Feels more "production line" than blood, sweat and tears...

Like you say, it's hard to make tackles when you always have the ball. It's also a virtue of our pressing patterns that the opposition are so often kind enough to give us the ball back without us having to make an issue of it.

Cogley did his best to tackle himself for the second Bristol goal. Not sure that livened the game up for me, though.

I think if what you're saying is you'd be bored if Bolton were in Man City's position then there's no helping that. If you go to the footy to watch an underdog battle, because that's what Bolton have usually been in the past (White Hot, Big Sam, etc), then being a dominant, possession side may just never be for you. It's much better for the club, though.

[BWFC_Insane]

This isn't meant as a criticism nor complaint. I want us to go up. This year (understanding no one's going to give us that, we'd have to earn it etc.). But I do find us tough to watch, sometimes even when we're winning. Feels more "production line" than blood, sweat and tears...

Like you say, it's hard to make tackles when you always have the ball. It's also a virtue of our pressing patterns that the opposition are so often kind enough to give us the ball back without us having to make an issue of it.

Cogley did his best to tackle himself for the second Bristol goal. Not sure that livened the game up for me, though.

I think if what you're saying is you'd be bored if Bolton were in Man City's position then there's no helping that. If you go to the footy to watch an underdog battle, because that's what Bolton have usually been in the past (White Hot, Big Sam, etc), then being a dominant, possession side may just never be for you. It's much better for the club, though.

This is bonkers. I’m sorry. But it’s absolutely bonkers. We are a league one side (at a club that shouldn’t be there at least historically, but has to earn its way) trying our best to get out.

It’s at best comparable to the Phil Neal side as it stands.

You are comparing it to two sides that both reached the premiership, one that reached Europe. It’s an absolute mile off either of those. Like light years away from the amount of joy, excitement and sheer achievement those two periods brought.

And trying to suggest otherwise is I think part of the problem. It’s creating some artificial narrative nonsense about us. We are a possession side towards the top half of league one. But we are still a league one side and still desperately trying not to be. Whether we are keeping the ball 80% of the time or not is broadly irrelevant if we are still a league one side.

If the options are go up kicking it long or go up playing like this we would choose this. But that’s comparing an equal outcome with a variable path.

The football we play now in no way, no way at all comes close to winning at Highbury, or Anfield, or getting into the premiership or Europe or any of those other achievements. If this period is to eclipse those then in needs as a primary focus those achievements.


And already I’d suggest we are behind in time line. But this season clearly promotion is essential.

[GhostoftheBok]

This is bonkers. I’m sorry. But it’s absolutely bonkers. We are a league one side (at a club that shouldn’t be there at least historically, but has to earn its way) trying our best to get out.

It’s at best comparable to the Phil Neal side as it stands.

You are comparing it to two sides that both reached the premiership, one that reached Europe

No, I'm comparing styles of football.

The best days for most Bolton fans were the giant killings in the cups and the big Prem and European days where we were underdogs. We scrapped and fought - games were battles and thankfully we often came out on top.

It was great, but we are now (as you say) in League One and playing like a big club at this level. Dominating the ball.

We're winning more games at this level than we did in the Prem, but we're doing it playing a way that may not press people's nostalgia buttons if what they've come to love is the war.

[GhostoftheBok]

I daresay we'll get more "ding dong doos" for Worthy to enjoy if we get promoted and Championship sides take the game to us.

[BWFC_Insane]

This is bonkers. I’m sorry. But it’s absolutely bonkers. We are a league one side (at a club that shouldn’t be there at least historically, but has to earn its way) trying our best to get out.

It’s at best comparable to the Phil Neal side as it stands.

You are comparing it to two sides that both reached the premiership, one that reached Europe

No, I'm comparing styles of football.

The best days for most Bolton fans were the giant killings in the cups and the big Prem and European days where we were underdogs. We scrapped and fought - games were battles and thankfully we often came out on top.

It was great, but we are now (as you say) in League One and playing like a big club at this level. Dominating the ball.

We're winning more games at this level than we did in the Prem, but we're doing it playing a way that may not press people's nostalgia buttons if what they've come to love is the war.

But I don’t think you can compare styles across eras but certainly not unless results are equalised. If we get to the premiership and stay up without spending any money in the next couple of seasons playing this football then that eclipses early Allardyce. But without the success style is not really relevant.

I also think you massively misjudge the football we played especially under Rioch - I mean that was exciting and with tempo and produced properly thrilling games. But I mean second half of our second season in the top flight under Allardyce where we sent west ham down is still not eclipsed for sheer drama and excitement generated. Every game was edge of seat stuff and we watched maybe the best midfield player in the world for a brief period play here and show us something special.

The trouble with the new age cold clinical football as I think worthy has alluded to is when it works it’s lovely. When it doesn’t it’s pretty rancid stuff. But it rarely produces a lot of excitement either way.

Ultimately possession, style, all that stuff is subjective but it’s irrelevant in the grand scheme. Irrelevant. It doesn’t make us better or worse than our results. Which are ultimately in competitive sport the king of kings.

[GhostoftheBok]

Ultimately possession, style, all that stuff is subjective but it’s irrelevant in the grand scheme. Irrelevant. It doesn’t make us better or worse than our results. Which are ultimately in competitive sport the king of kings.

Nobody has said anything about any of this, Insane.

Worthy said (paraphrasing) that he found it hard to get riled up over possession football against side who sit back against us.

I said there's not much doing when we're playing dominant football and sides know it. They're going to turtle and we have to stick to our tasks.

Whilst it may not thrill some fans, it's better than us having to scrap against the odds in League One to try and win games.

We're playing like a dominant, footballing side because the manager has made us one at this level. That's just obviously a good thing for the club overall, rather than us having to to battle for every inch as Sam (and yes, Bruce too) had to.

If/when we go up there will be more battles.

In this division, with this squad and this manager we are closer to an Arsenal of old or modern City than to the old Bolton Wanderers and the football reflects that.

[Worthy4England]

I daresay we'll get more "ding dong doos" for Worthy to enjoy if we get promoted and Championship sides take the game to us.

That thought occurred. Either way, it'll reach a point where we're not as dominant. But it's diddly squat to do with underdog mentality. I've seen more seasons than most (stop sniggering at the back, them who remember Nat ), where we've been dominant in terms of results, but not in the same style as we're currently following. I often didn't see us as underdogs v Arsenal (sorry Gooner) on the proverbial wet Tuesday night at the Reebok.

Also the Arsenal of old have nothing I'd want. Set of "don't tackle us, we don't like it" poseurs. They thought they were everything right with football, I thought they were everything wrong with it.

I understand it's difficult to compare across eras, but Brentford aren't winning noticeably more than we did at our peak.

I guess, to give a more recent comparison, I was a lot more enamoured with our last promotion season, not because it seemed pretty unlikely in Jan, but games like Mansfield where we pulled it around, we're much more imperfect, so for me they were a lot more exciting.

I watched us beat (memory test) Shrewsbury at home last season. They wore the grass out, between the 18 yard area and half-way.