Pied and Prejudice, Wigan (A) 27/02/04.

[BWFC_Insane]

Parky had us on less points in 2017 at 34 games, than we currently have. Including a decent amount of Prem experience across the team and a £6m striker.

Who cares? Relative points are irrelevant. We got over the line. We won massive games away at promotion to do so as well. We spent no money, sold our best player in Jan lost our other better player who returned to their parent club and we still found a way. We had to change how we played entirely second half.

I will be delighted if we do the same now. But we need to do it. Do you think we will?

[dave the minion]

I'm largely done on this TBH - its getting really boring - and the extreme negativity that surrounds this club (maybe all clubs, I don't know, but I only support this one?) completely does my swede in.....

However, a couple of things I take issue with:
- we are absolutely and certainly NOT a huge club, in any way shape or form. Yes, we once were relatively big, and yes, we have a relatively shiny stadium, but we are no longer a huge club. Huge clubs don't almost disappear from existence in recent memory. Huge clubs don't get excited by marquee signings who are Swansea reserves or come from L2 clubs or below. We're just not. I want us to be, and I think we can be, but be under no illusion we are not massive and we are not entitled to swan around and think we will be given a guard of honour straight through the Championship. Portsmouth, Barnsley, Derby - to name but 3 - will all think they are "massive" clubs in this division, and the more of them there are, the less massive we are.....

- I don't think we messed anything up last season either. We won a cup and got to the play offs. If messing it up is not being promoted, then bear in mind one of the teams that went up is currently riding high in the Championship, and another one is also a team who would claim they were a massive club in the division - losing out to those is annoying & frustrating I admit, but it categorically was NOT a failure.....

- so far, this season is a progression on last season. lets see where it takes us, but it is still progress. Your expectation of progress is clearly far more demanding than mine, so there's a good chance you'll end up disappointed. I hope you are not, and I genuinely believe we will make it (just!), but I suspect even then you'll have a problem as we didn't go up as comfortably (or piss the league) as you think we should.

- finally, to be very clear, we are not suffering as a football club. Christ, compare now to 4 or 5 years ago. This is not suffering, it really isn't


I wish I could tell you that everything will be fine and dandy and you would stop revelling in the misery and negativity, but I can't. I think we'll be OK, but even if we are there will be bumps in the road, so I await your next rants and raves with baited breath.....

[dave the minion]

Where we are points wise right now is arguably a false position given the performances we are putting in and the games we have left.

Just one more from me - the above - completely wrong.

Unless someone tells me otherwise, I thought you could only play the teams the fixture computer puts you up against, and try to get points off them? Where we are right now is exactly where we are, and should be. If its false due to the teams we've played, then I thought the common narrative was that we underperform against poor teams.....
Unless I'm also mistaken, the league table only counts results, and doesn't give out style or performance points? The performances - whilst recently concerning - have not been resulting in too many dropped points (last 4 days excepted!) - so even with those performances we've managed to maintain pace with the top 2. Thats fine for me............

[BWFC_Insane]

Winning promotion from league one with Bolton wanderers averaging big crowds and having spent more money than the club has for over a decade is not some ridiculous expectation.

It’s not some ‘who do you think you are’ moment it was the clear aim at the start and throughout the season expressed by the ownership and Evatt himself.


Can’t move the goalposts. Managers have to produce under the pressure and have to ultimately get the results.

Last season we failed in the play offs and the quote was ‘we are working to ensure that doesn’t happen again’.

So I don’t think saying that the missing promotion would be complete failure is unfair or disproportionate.

Bottom line is and I’ve always felt this it’s not just about Evatt but bottom line for me is that good managers get teams over the line. When the crunch comes and the pressure is on they find ways. There are only so many ‘misses’ you can have before in reality it’s a systemic issue you have failed to address. Right now I feel our failings are systemic. And the fact the same ones occur every time without any fix - that’s my annoyance. Good managers don’t let that happen.

[officer_dibble]

We won’t go up - part of me wants another crack at last nights opponents next season to be honest. Apparently not beat them for ten years which is a joke! Getting promoted we should be dispatching rivals particularly of that quality and enjoying doing so - I can take a defeat at Blackpool but 5-0 to that lot on aggregate this season is fecking shite. They were practically bust last season. I don’t give a feck what division we are in I will still support us, so let’s do it right!

[dave the minion]

Derby got beat last night by a team in 19th - so they don't deserve promotion as they should be dispatching teams like if they are to go up?
Barnsley got beat by the team in 15th a few weeks ago, so thats another one without the quality to go up.
Portsmouth got thumped by Orient (I know it was a while ago, and we lost to them too!), so there's another....

Wigan have also done the double on Peterborough, so they clearly aren't good enough either....

Its a weird - and not necessarily weak - league. I haven't got time to do the anlaysis so I'm guessing, but there isn't a team in it at the moment who can say they consistently out play and get wins against the teams that the league table suggests they should.

[Worthy4England]

There seems to be expectations (after generally messaging how tough this league is to get out of), that there should be some sort of points clear cakewalk going on, rather than ups and downs with nearly a third of the season to play. It's what comes next, rather than what came before that'll define the season from here.

Last season we were one point short of Ipswich at this stage, in 3rd and 4th respectively. We were 4 points less than we have now. We were 6 points off second and 9 off top, having played 1 or 2 games more than the teams in front.

We're 6 points ahead of 2017 on the same games - no one got sacked. We're 2 points adrift of 98 points season...

As Boris said, we played decent, but without cutting edge, yesterday. It wasn't lack of "bottle," it was more minor things like ability to score and ability to not concede. They're pretty important, but I don't see us in the "no chance" bucket at the moment. Need to get behind them rather than sack them.

Where we are points wise right now is arguably a false position given the performances we are putting in and the games we have left. Nobody would be more delighted than me if we get it together and go up but like when Sunderland were in third under Johnson I don’t think anyone really truly has the belief we will do it. And then it’s too late.

I’d be more forgiving if we were changing things to arrest the slide and improve performances but it’s now for me three seasons of the same failings and trying to do the same thing over and over. It breaks down when the crunch games come every single time because we aren’t good enough to play this way under pressure. We don’t have the quality in key areas. You need unbelievable quality to do it. We don’t have it. But we do have more than enough to go up if we weren’t trying to pass teams to death.

I'm sure people will argue the false position on points, but the top two aren't going to look back at the end of the season to the 3-1 shock defeat to Carlisle. They will care not one whit. I think you clearly don't have belief we can go up, but generally you start panicking about November and by Jan we're into "MUST WINS" which is clearly bollocks. .

As for crunch games - we went into the playoffs last year, I think with better points hauls against the other 3 play-offs teams than anyone. So they all must have similar failings. We were hardly "under pressure" yesterday, but we certainly didn't have enough (any) dominance in front of goal to really say "that was unlucky." We have improved over three seasons, fairly comfortably from three seasons ago to now. I mean that's just pretty plain to see, so to suggest we haven't - don't get it - the improvement this year to last so far is rather more marginal (to my eyes) in points accumulation, but we're clearly scoring more, just maybe too sporadically - you bang 7 in against Exeter, that's gonna help, but it's still only 3 points and it's really about the ability to nick one in a fine margins game rather than dick Exeter 7-0.

I predicted one post prior, whilst messaging how difficult it is to go up, we'd get messages about how easy other managers from yesteryear would have made it. 2017. Less points, same games played. Much higher budget than our competitors and a team with a mix of Prem experience and a £6m striker in the ranks and if my memory serves the signing of the postman, which gave us some lift and an edge. I like Parky, I really do.

It's fairly clearly not going to be the cakewalk you're looking for despite constantly telling everyone what "the target" is as if somehow, looking a bit shaky on the journey, leads to instant dismissal, because it's not meeting your expectations. I'm sure there's quite a few fans seeing it that way and the pressure is likely to build from here, so Evatt needs to manage it.

I don't particularly like our style of play, as I've said in the past. It feels like it's one for statisticians on most elements - in part because it is. You wouldn't expect it to be as well oiled in L1 as a team higher up the pyramid with more quality. What tends to happen is, people pick out a few build-ups and tell themselves they were great when added to the 70% possession, when actually they didn't lead to anything and the oppo scored 3 in their 30% possession. We'd probably top L1 on "build-ups to final third"...

What I don't think is going to happen is Evatt says "Insano sees the light, he has the plan" - I also doubt he's lost support of Shaz at this point....

[Worthy4England]

Parky had us on less points in 2017 at 34 games, than we currently have. Including a decent amount of Prem experience across the team and a £6m striker.

Who cares? Relative points are irrelevant. We got over the line. We won massive games away at promotion to do so as well. We spent no money, sold our best player in Jan lost our other better player who returned to their parent club and we still found a way. We had to change how we played entirely second half.

I will be delighted if we do the same now. But we need to do it. Do you think we will?

All your points are relative. There's 12/13 games left to play and we're in the mix.

[Worthy4England]

Parky had us on less points in 2017 at 34 games, than we currently have. Including a decent amount of Prem experience across the team and a £6m striker.

Who cares? Relative points are irrelevant. We got over the line. We won massive games away at promotion to do so as well. We spent no money, sold our best player in Jan lost our other better player who returned to their parent club and we still found a way. We had to change how we played entirely second half.

I will be delighted if we do the same now. But we need to do it. Do you think we will?

All your points are relative. There's 12/13 games left to play and we're in the mix. And if they're irrelevant, why make them?

Edit - sorry didn't answer the last bit. Whether I think we will or not is entirely subjective, I think we'll struggle with the games we have left, I had us down as 3rd pre-season and I'm still sticking with that, but something like the 3-0 v Barnsley last year (I know they were a man down early) - would certainly be a huge boost. Even a 1-0 would be grand.

Whether we "need" to do it, is your view - whether the Board have the same view, I dunno - my guess is should we end up 3rd/4th, they'd stick with what we have "the plan" - they don't strike me as overly "knee jerk."

The point is, where we are in the League, we have a pretty good baseline, whether we make it or not. It's certainly not the last chance saloon you keep telling everyone about. We lost last night, Derby lost last night. Good night for Barnsley, but not irrecoverable.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Tonight's the first time I've doubted him. I don't know how you can lose that game against that team, even if we hadn't been spanked at the weekend.

The third game in a row we've played how you'd want to play on the ball, dominated possession and got in ok areas but not had the final ball. But the decisions. Whether it's from the players. You're set up to get in behind but at least four times tonight the early low ball across the box, the entire thing we're trying to do, is on, and three times we didn't take it and the fourth Ogbeta shinned it into the post.

But what is he picking. I've always thought the no keeper thing was mental but the bench he keeps picking. You're entirely reliant on the WBs for attacking threat. But each game we shag them out with nothing off the bench (don't worry lads, you're off entirely for a week before doing a full 90 again). Instead we've got a fifth choice semi retired striker and for some god foresaken feck knows why reason, both Iredale and Forrester. What is Iredale supposed to add to that? It can't be LWB because Ogbeta was shagged after 65 and stayed on.

And if anyone can figure out why, after everything good we did running through him (again!) he took Sheehan off for that carthorse while we left three centre halves on the pitch?? Cue an unsurprising 20 mins where we got in good areas, passed back into midfield for...?

I can't believe we've lost that game. At least Derby lost but it doesn't look like it matters right now.

And people talk about bottle, it was all about "oh can we match their fight" well they didn't even fight. But bottle is trusting yourself to play the proper pass. We're oh so comfortable when no-one presses in our half, but as soon as it matters everything is safe. Not in a recycle the ball is soft way, but in a cowardly hide the ball way. I saw that Geth graphic. It's easy to make a load of passes when everything you do is 5 yards behind Cogley's left foot. He was far from the only one, but when you go you have to go, and everything at the moment is don't be the one to give it away. That's bad enough when you play with two wingers you can hope to find some magic. When you're all about the system and keep the ball it's criminal. No-one is going to make it happen if you don't, and the last three weeks only Sheehan, CMG and Thomson have had the nuts to play. Ones now dead, another is eligible for 40% of our games, and the best one is getting dragged for someone who's taken a wrong turn on his way to play for Luton Vets.

Awful.

As is so often the case, Prufrock seems to me to have a clearer view than most. I can respond to a couple of the things above but not to quarrel. There's far more than enough of that around the fanbase at the moment. (I'm beginning to think we're more harmonious in a relegation season than a promotion chase.)

So, 'responses' - more as dialogue than didacticism. Like you I struggle to comprehend how we lost to that team, but it's really quite simple - we didn't take chances, and we didn't really make them. And then we conceded the first proper half-chance they had.

You've pinpointed one or two reasons why we didn't score. I might add that nobody bar Dion (who was himself struggling before his injury) has looked "more likely than not" to score. Vic has sometimes threatened. Bod has occasionally looked alright off the bench. CMG (RIP) showed promise. That's it.

The bench... I get why he doesn't pick a keeper - it's risk/reward. Like you, though, I don't get his use of the subs available. If he habitually rotates his forwards mid-game, why not his WBs now they're plentiful?

And most of all, yes - the Sheehan sub had me raging all through the dark watches of the night. As soon as it happened I doubted the decision and nothing I saw thereafter made me change my mind. It's not so much bringing on Jerome – although if he's the answer, what the hell is the question? - as removing Sheehan. Obviously, obviously, Wigan - rarely adventurous beforehand - were going to retreat into an even lower block, so what we needed was quick minds and quick feet. (On that note, I don't think it's hindsight to say that Bod would have been a much wiser introduction than Jerome.) And bravery, as you say.

Instead we had both Santos and Toal at the back against a one-man attack. I've nothing against Toal but I'd have hooked him for Bod rather than <checks notes> our best passing midfielder. I don't care if Sheehan's breathing out of his arse - he can see a pass nobody else can, as was clearly demonstrated by our utter toothelessness thereafter. Just have Santos at the back 1v1 and if Wigan break then he can get help from the wingbacks – and Jones, in that sort-of-halfback role; he's struggling for form but I'd still trust him to be more likely than Toal to help create something in our attacking rondos.

In short: If the much-demanded Plan B against a low block is subbing Sheehan for Jerome, then frankly f**k Plan B because it's moronic.

I agree on the "balls" bit, too. I don't think this side lacks guts - or we wouldn't have equalised with 10 men at Northampton, come from behind at Cambridge, come from behind twice against Charlton, come from behind against Barnsley – and that's just this month. (Obviously there's another pattern in those concessions, but that's not about guts, balls, knees or any other body part so it's a separate conversation.) But yes, as Evatt has said, the required cojones are getting the ball in tough positions and trying something creative rather than safe. Not nearly enough of that.

One final thing – on the despairing thought that "At least Derby lost but it doesn't look like it matters right now" – I agree with you (and McGinlay) that we need to win. But Derby have now lost two on the bounce and remain only above us on goal difference from a game more. Now, had they won both those games we'd be six points behind and frankly starting to resign ourselves to the play-offs. So yes, it matters: if we can correct our wobble, we don't need snookers.

True, Barnsley are now 3pts behind us with a game in hand. Right now it's a fascinating four-way race – it was briefly three-way, but us and Derby have contrived to let Barnsley back in. Whether the Tykes will take advantage remains to be seen - they too are operating on tight margins: they recently lost a home game to Exeter, they haven't won by more than one goal since early December and they've only kept one clean sheet since November. Nobody is roaring. We're still right in the race. It's just that right now it somewhat resembles Monty Python's 100-yard Race For People With No Sense Of Direction.

[Harry Genshaw]

"Evatt out" is ridiculous but I can't easily dismiss those fans with rational concerns that we're going to miss a golden opportunity to get out of this division.

This wasn't a one off defeat on the back of a mid season poor performance. We could all pretty much see this happening and I'd not be betting anyones money on us bucking the trend at Barnsley and Derby either.

We had a great season last year. Ultimately, we were knocked out of the play offs after failing to muster a shot on target against our opponents in over 180 minutes football. We should be learning from games like that but at the moment it feels like we're sleepwalking to the same inevitable outcome this year too.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Last year's playoffs failure seems very specific. We couldn't convert and Duff's Barnsley were one of the best teams I've ever seen (relative to division) at minimising the oppo and maximising their own returns.

This season we've been overall more effective up front. Barnsley have been much worse. I don't fear them as much - next midweek or in the playoffs - as I did last May. Peterborough would be a shootout. Stevenage are awkward but I think we're better.

But I still think we've got more than a fair chance of automatic. More than 50/50, I'd say. I wouldn't swap with anyone but Pompey. Which is not to say we don't have to improve on things – I still think the Cambridge rearrangement was a missed opportunity for a training-ground reset - but we're still in a very good position despite the clanging bells of doom.

[BWFC_Insane]

Last year's playoffs failure seems very specific. We couldn't convert and Duff's Barnsley were one of the best teams I've ever seen (relative to division) at minimising the oppo and maximising their own returns.

This season we've been overall more effective up front. Barnsley have been much worse. I don't fear them as much - next midweek or in the playoffs - as I did last May. Peterborough would be a shootout. Stevenage are awkward but I think we're better.

But I still think we've got more than a fair chance of automatic. More than 50/50, I'd say. I wouldn't swap with anyone but Pompey. Which is not to say we don't have to improve on things – I still think the Cambridge rearrangement was a missed opportunity for a training-ground reset - but we're still in a very good position despite the clanging bells of doom.

The way I see it though - Wigan are rubbish but any of the play off contenders bar maybe Posh who would take us on are capable of playing how Wigan did yesterday and causing us issues. Or indeed playing how Wigan did back in early season and pressuring us into a collapse.

The pattern of not performing very well when the big games come round, especially when those big games present an opportunity is repeating from last season.

What’s our record against the top 8? I doubt it’s top two…I haven’t checked and have no idea.

But our form in the last two months hasn’t been very good. We were poor but just about clinging on. Now we are poor and losing. It’s become beyond urgent to stop being poor and start playing but the worry I have is we’ve said that for a long while now. Evatt says the same things pre match. And the result is performances aren’t improving and results are getting worse.

It needs a big change. New system. A fresh look. Playing the system we are without quality at wing back is madness. We need to freshen things up. Should have happened at Wigan. Didn’t. But absolutely must now. You can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting it to change. Yes it was good pre Christmas (with notable exceptions). But it’s not working now.

[Worthy4England]

With two games left last season, any 2 of the top 3 could've mathematically gone up (Bit of a guess as I've not looked if they played each other). I expect it might be similar this season, we seem to want some sort of "certainty" with 12/13 games left to play - doubt you're going to get any,

[BWFC_Insane]

With two games left last season, any 2 of the top 3 could've mathematically gone up (Bit of a guess as I've not looked if they played each other). I expect it might be similar this season, we seem to want some sort of "certainty" with 12/13 games left to play - doubt you're going to get any,

Doesn’t matter if we go up with the last kick of the season so long as we do.

But it’s more a forward look as to we are currently not looking much like a side destined for promotion. That can change. It has to.

[Prufrock]

Tonight's the first time I've doubted him. I don't know how you can lose that game against that team, even if we hadn't been spanked at the weekend.

The third game in a row we've played how you'd want to play on the ball, dominated possession and got in ok areas but not had the final ball. But the decisions. Whether it's from the players. You're set up to get in behind but at least four times tonight the early low ball across the box, the entire thing we're trying to do, is on, and three times we didn't take it and the fourth Ogbeta shinned it into the post.

But what is he picking. I've always thought the no keeper thing was mental but the bench he keeps picking. You're entirely reliant on the WBs for attacking threat. But each game we shag them out with nothing off the bench (don't worry lads, you're off entirely for a week before doing a full 90 again). Instead we've got a fifth choice semi retired striker and for some god foresaken feck knows why reason, both Iredale and Forrester. What is Iredale supposed to add to that? It can't be LWB because Ogbeta was shagged after 65 and stayed on.

And if anyone can figure out why, after everything good we did running through him (again!) he took Sheehan off for that carthorse while we left three centre halves on the pitch?? Cue an unsurprising 20 mins where we got in good areas, passed back into midfield for...?

I can't believe we've lost that game. At least Derby lost but it doesn't look like it matters right now.

And people talk about bottle, it was all about "oh can we match their fight" well they didn't even fight. But bottle is trusting yourself to play the proper pass. We're oh so comfortable when no-one presses in our half, but as soon as it matters everything is safe. Not in a recycle the ball is soft way, but in a cowardly hide the ball way. I saw that Geth graphic. It's easy to make a load of passes when everything you do is 5 yards behind Cogley's left foot. He was far from the only one, but when you go you have to go, and everything at the moment is don't be the one to give it away. That's bad enough when you play with two wingers you can hope to find some magic. When you're all about the system and keep the ball it's criminal. No-one is going to make it happen if you don't, and the last three weeks only Sheehan, CMG and Thomson have had the nuts to play. Ones now dead, another is eligible for 40% of our games, and the best one is getting dragged for someone who's taken a wrong turn on his way to play for Luton Vets.

Awful.

As is so often the case, Prufrock seems to me to have a clearer view than most. I can respond to a couple of the things above but not to quarrel. There's far more than enough of that around the fanbase at the moment. (I'm beginning to think we're more harmonious in a relegation season than a promotion chase.)

So, 'responses' - more as dialogue than didacticism. Like you I struggle to comprehend how we lost to that team, but it's really quite simple - we didn't take chances, and we didn't really make them. And then we conceded the first proper half-chance they had.

You've pinpointed one or two reasons why we didn't score. I might add that nobody bar Dion (who was himself struggling before his injury) has looked "more likely than not" to score. Vic has sometimes threatened. Bod has occasionally looked alright off the bench. CMG (RIP) showed promise. That's it.

The bench... I get why he doesn't pick a keeper - it's risk/reward. Like you, though, I don't get his use of the subs available. If he habitually rotates his forwards mid-game, why not his WBs now they're plentiful?

And most of all, yes - the Sheehan sub had me raging all through the dark watches of the night. As soon as it happened I doubted the decision and nothing I saw thereafter made me change my mind. It's not so much bringing on Jerome – although if he's the answer, what the hell is the question? - as removing Sheehan. Obviously, obviously, Wigan - rarely adventurous beforehand - were going to retreat into an even lower block, so what we needed was quick minds and quick feet. (On that note, I don't think it's hindsight to say that Bod would have been a much wiser introduction than Jerome.) And bravery, as you say.

Instead we had both Santos and Toal at the back against a one-man attack. I've nothing against Toal but I'd have hooked him for Bod rather than <checks notes> our best passing midfielder. I don't care if Sheehan's breathing out of his arse - he can see a pass nobody else can, as was clearly demonstrated by our utter toothelessness thereafter. Just have Santos at the back 1v1 and if Wigan break then he can get help from the wingbacks – and Jones, in that sort-of-halfback role; he's struggling for form but I'd still trust him to be more likely than Toal to help create something in our attacking rondos.

In short: If the much-demanded Plan B against a low block is subbing Sheehan for Jerome, then frankly f**k Plan B because it's moronic.

I agree on the "balls" bit, too. I don't think this side lacks guts - or we wouldn't have equalised with 10 men at Northampton, come from behind at Cambridge, come from behind twice against Charlton, come from behind against Barnsley – and that's just this month. (Obviously there's another pattern in those concessions, but that's not about guts, balls, knees or any other body part so it's a separate conversation.) But yes, as Evatt has said, the required cojones are getting the ball in tough positions and trying something creative rather than safe. Not nearly enough of that.

One final thing – on the despairing thought that "At least Derby lost but it doesn't look like it matters right now" – I agree with you (and McGinlay) that we need to win. But Derby have now lost two on the bounce and remain only above us on goal difference from a game more. Now, had they won both those games we'd be six points behind and frankly starting to resign ourselves to the play-offs. So yes, it matters: if we can correct our wobble, we don't need snookers.

True, Barnsley are now 3pts behind us with a game in hand. Right now it's a fascinating four-way race – it was briefly three-way, but us and Derby have contrived to let Barnsley back in. Whether the Tykes will take advantage remains to be seen - they too are operating on tight margins: they recently lost a home game to Exeter, they haven't won by more than one goal since early December and they've only kept one clean sheet since November. Nobody is roaring. We're still right in the race. It's just that right now it somewhat resembles Monty Python's 100-yard Race For People With No Sense Of Direction.

A few responses in the same spirit.

The keeper risk reward thing, I get that's the argument but I think the weightings are moronic frankly. The fifth striker gives us the option of bringing on Jerome, good in the air can help defend set pieces if we're winning instead of, say Bod, who would seem to be able to do the same job. He's won some headers doing that, though he's also given away a penalty. Whereas if Bax had got injured mid match (and that's very but for the grace of God) we're going viral on Sunday. Not for me, Jeff.

I was Vic I'd be livid at last night, he did his job. I'm fairly sure he was there for all four of those moments I mentioned where we did the entire thing we're set up to do and then turned down the square ball. He was there for a hattrick and we f*cked it.

We're still very much there, and I don't buy we're not playing well. I wouldn't go quite as far as Boris that we played well last night, but the last few games have been about decision making at either end. That's very fixable and doesn't require ripping it all up.

I agree, it's been a great few weeks for Portsmouth, but I wouldn't swap with anyone else. V tough to split us, Derby and Barnsley. A lot rides on our respective trips.

I've also enjoyed talk about "moving goalposts". The pre-season predictions thread is an instructive read...

Main change for me has to be a) from the manager, wing back options on the bench. We are so reliant on them being fresh, even more so than the forwards for me and b) from the players, making better decisions at each end of the pitch.

[irie Cee Bee]

We are not in a crisis but something is definitely wrong. Our forwards are not scoring, our defense is leaking and we are now losing games. We are still 3rd, but no one here is confident anymore that we will go up. We have some good players but we are now predictable. The top teams in the division are not afraid of us.

Evatt, as our Manager needs to fix this. He is being "outmanaged" by the managers of the top teams. Wigan continued to change up things until they found a way to beat us. We made an enforced changed and watched while we huffed and puffed before making desperate changes to get back. Too reactive for me. We need to be able to change tactics during a game based on what is working and what isn't. This to me, is a major weakness Evatt has. He seems to believe that his "system" will prevail, no matter what's going on in the game. He's being outmanaged.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

A couple of things, BWFCi, me dear old mate. First off is the apparent glee with which you greet defeat. That's led some forum members to dislike you and call you a non-fan; I'm not among their number as I know you deeply care about the club, but I've also known you long enough to confirm that you're far far busier on here when we lose than when we win. It comes from a good place but it's not a great look.

Secondly, you go about it with a mix of claim, supposition, hyperfocus and goalpost-shifting that perfectly mirrors our age of misinformation.

The way I see it though - Wigan are rubbish but any of the play off contenders bar maybe Posh who would take us on are capable of playing how Wigan did yesterday and causing us issues. Or indeed playing how Wigan did back in early season and pressuring us into a collapse.

Supposition; unprovable and undisprovable.

The pattern of not performing very well when the big games come round, especially when those big games present an opportunity is repeating from last season.

Selective memory. Last season we won 3-0 at Barnsley, 5-0 at Peterborough and 4-0 at Wembley in front of 70,000.

What’s our record against the top 8? I doubt it’s top two…I haven’t checked and have no idea.

Check then. Do the homework to back your claims.

But our form in the last two months hasn’t been very good. We were poor but just about clinging on. Now we are poor and losing. It’s become beyond urgent to stop being poor and start playing but the worry I have is we’ve said that for a long while now. Evatt says the same things pre match. And the result is performances aren’t improving and results are getting worse.

Last-12 form: 4th. Derby are 6th. Wigan are 5th. I will grant (and I have said) that our results have dipped, but that's not really added much to the sum of human knowledge.

It needs a big change. New system. A fresh look. Playing the system we are without quality at wing back is madness. We need to freshen things up. Should have happened at Wigan. Didn’t. But absolutely must now. You can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting it to change. Yes it was good pre Christmas (with notable exceptions). But it’s not working now.

Supposition; unprovable and undisprovable.


Basically, any defeat or bad result is now compounded by having to sift through the noise on here to find any signal. It's why I logged off for three days after the weekend, and I might well do so again, because it's just repetitive and tiring. As someone sagely said last night while the fat lady tuned up, sometimes it's best just to forget about Wanderers for a while. It's a difficult thing to do, because bollocks to thinking about the Roman Empire, every five minutes I'm thinking about the selection of the next XI. When we're not doing well it's more painful to do so, and it's sometimes a real chore to come on here. Pity, that.

[Worthy4England]

I was Vic I'd be livid at last night, he did his job. I'm fairly sure he was there for all four of those moments I mentioned where we did the entire thing we're set up to do and then turned down the square ball. He was there for a hattrick and we f*cked it.

I've also enjoyed talk about "moving goalposts". The pre-season predictions thread is an instructive read...

Main change for me has to be a) from the manager, wing back options on the bench. We are so reliant on them being fresh, even more so than the forwards for me and b) from the players, making better decisions at each end of the pitch.

Cut down a few bits as it was a long post. Yes to the Vic bit. We in decent positions, where WB tried to beat keeper near post. The most obvious for me was Ogbeta's shot, absolutely had across the box writ large. Great if he scores it, could understand the frustration of the two forwards with a look of "WTAF?"

The "moving goalposts" amused me too. I'm not quite sure where Evatt and / or Sharon have said "Promotion or sackings - that's the order of the day." Conversely I am pretty sure where some of our fans have occasionally used that interpretation, to help get a nuanced point across.

For me, the last point is a yes. I think we've done too much tinkering this side of Christmas - in part because of injury - but too much anyhow. We need something a bit more settled apart from the odd situational change.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Conversations spring like snowdrops in the gloom.

The keeper risk reward thing, I get that's the argument but I think the weightings are moronic frankly. The fifth striker gives us the option of bringing on Jerome, good in the air can help defend set pieces if we're winning instead of, say Bod, who would seem to be able to do the same job. He's won some headers doing that, though he's also given away a penalty. Whereas if Bax had got injured mid match (and that's very but for the grace of God) we're going viral on Sunday. Not for me, Jeff.

Absolubloodylutely. I was chewing over a post that said the only time for Jerome is defending a lead (I still think he's better as a "defender" than Bod.) Last night we weren't defending a lead, and we removed the player most likely to find Jerome's head in the oppo box. Moronic.

For the record, my seven subs would be 2x forwards, 2x wingbacks, CMG if he's not starting, an 8 and a CB. If it's a big enough game to need a keeper, I'd sacrifice the 8 or CMG. And I would ROTATE THE SODDING WINGBACKS MIDGAME.

I was Vic I'd be livid at last night, he did his job. I'm fairly sure he was there for all four of those moments I mentioned where we did the entire thing we're set up to do and then turned down the square ball. He was there for a hattrick and we f*cked it.

Fair comment on last night. And over the season, he's not been terrible – but I can't say I've ever been confident he'll score in a given game. More so than Jerome, more so than Dan, more so than Bod if we're playing a third-tier team - until the last month, when Bod has started to click... another reason Jerome's deployment last night was a huge Evatt error IMO.

We're still very much there, and I don't buy we're not playing well. I wouldn't go quite as far as Boris that we played well last night, but the last few games have been about decision making at either end. That's very fixable and doesn't require ripping it all up.

I agree, it's been a great few weeks for Portsmouth, but I wouldn't swap with anyone else. V tough to split us, Derby and Barnsley. A lot rides on our respective trips.

I've also enjoyed talk about "moving goalposts". The pre-season predictions thread is an instructive read...

Main change for me has to be a) from the manager, wing back options on the bench. We are so reliant on them being fresh, even more so than the forwards for me and b) from the players, making better decisions at each end of the pitch.

Agree with all of that. I wouldn't say last night was the first time I've doubted Evatt – losing 6-3 at home to Port Vale wasn't fun – but a lot of those were learning processes. He's still learning, and he needs to learn again.