This Exe is on fire: Exeter (A) Sat 9 Mar, 3pm

[Prufrock]

We keep conceding too many cheap goals. And failing to take chances to kill games off, I'm really not sure the system is number one issue at all right now. The players have to do their jobs.

And we need Bax back.

Two really good saves from Coleman yesterday but still a fairly big net negative.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't think a back 4 cures everything either, on its own. But I'd also say that the spin seems to be that we only score goals because of this system. How did we get on in 96/7? I'd be surprised if we get to 100 goals this season, less surprised if the against column reads less than 53...

And we haven't won the FA Cup since we abandoned the 2-3-5 formation

What you define as "spin" is me analysing the videos to identify where the concessions come from, and I honestly don't see any of the recent glut that would have been stopped by having a back four. If anybody else wants to do some actual research and show me differently, I'm all eyes. But what I saw while poring over horror shows for 15 minutes was wall-to-wall brainfarts, which have been happening to a greater or lesser extent forever - including 1958, 1997 and other glory years; it's just that the best teams minimise errors and maximise talent, and in our current squad the talent has been tooled toward a back three for the last five transfer windows.

As I say I'm not against a back four in theory. Best teams in the world use a back four, but they have the advantage of having the best players in the world, plus the best managers and most of the biggest budgets. If we're going to maximise what we have I don't think it's by playing 4-2-3-1. To me, Pru's idea sounds much better – but any formation, any manager and any team can be undone by the type of mistakes our players have made.

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem I have is we currently aren’t good enough to play an expansive possession based game with the system we are playing. Nor I think any system. We might not like that fact but it is for me a fact.

We need to find a way to get results and improve what’s been a disastrous run of form.

We do have individual mistakes in us but those mistakes are so costly because we have such a high line and little room for error. See santos for their second yesterday. A mistake but once he made it that is it.

Asking people to defend one on one in this scenario when it’s not working and we maybe have even less insurance behind with Baxter out for me is tipping the odds away from ourselves.

It might be ok if we were more efficient in attack and scored the goals our domination deserved. But we don’t and aren’t.

And broadly teams have cottoned onto us. Worked us out. We for me need to offer something different. It’s tough because I don’t think we naturally suit a 4123 but neither do we at all suit this 352 we are seeing. And for me we can’t weaken the midfield. So I don’t know if you can tweak the existing system to stop the high risk reward stuff but I doubt it without it becoming a back 5 and complete rearguard action.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The problem I have is we currently aren’t good enough to play an expansive possession based game with the system we are playing. Nor I think any system. We might not like that fact but it is for me a fact.

You spelt "opinion" wrong twice, but do carry on

It’s tough because I don’t think we naturally suit a 4123 but neither do we at all suit this 352 we are seeing. And for me we can’t weaken the midfield. So I don’t know if you can tweak the existing system to stop the high risk reward stuff but I doubt it without it becoming a back 5 and complete rearguard action.

Yeah, what we could do is dial down the risk/reward and execute fewer overloads (because we need those bodies further back to prevent the 1v1). But it wouldn't surprise me if we then scored fewer, which might exacerbate the problem if we're without three of the four strikers we've bought for hard cash over the last couple of seasons.

[Worthy4England]

Baxter has been a big loss for me. The defence don't seem as comfortable that they know what Coleman is likely to do in any given situation.

I'm less convinced by some of the brainfarts on cause v effect. I think we miss Dion's press immensely at the other end too. But not sure either of those are all of the cause.

For me, their second yesterday is as much a MF problem (cause) as a defensive one. We're in their half, but no one, despite us having numbers, gets anywhere like close enough the the pass that splits us out to the left and Toal in a state of confusion. This happens a lot. The goal against Wigan we have 4 v 2 in the general vicinity yet still allow the pass to be threaded through. Slightly earlier in the move we have 5 players nearer the ball carrier than Wigan, yet they're all bypassed with the ball from their right to their left. We seem to bunch quite a lot when we move to defense in the MF areas, that often leads to plenty of space and creates 1v1's in the last chance saloon. Whilst that isn't caused "by the system" it's an effect of how we play the system. We create their space better than them, they just thank us for it.

The Thomo/Barnsley goal you could view lots of ways. No doubt Thomo should control better, but that our defenders have gone out right and left, leaving their bloke free in the middle is absolutely "system" for me...

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

For Barnsley's first goal, a player did precisely what the manager told him not to.

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem I have is we currently aren’t good enough to play an expansive possession based game with the system we are playing. Nor I think any system. We might not like that fact but it is for me a fact.

You spelt "opinion" wrong twice, but do carry on

It’s tough because I don’t think we naturally suit a 4123 but neither do we at all suit this 352 we are seeing. And for me we can’t weaken the midfield. So I don’t know if you can tweak the existing system to stop the high risk reward stuff but I doubt it without it becoming a back 5 and complete rearguard action.

Yeah, what we could do is dial down the risk/reward and execute fewer overloads (because we need those bodies further back to prevent the 1v1). But it wouldn't surprise me if we then scored fewer, which might exacerbate the problem if we're without three of the four strikers we've bought for hard cash over the last couple of seasons.

Results aren’t an opinion. Neither is the form table.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The problem I have is we currently aren’t good enough to play an expansive possession based game with the system we are playing. Nor I think any system. We might not like that fact but it is for me a fact.

You spelt "opinion" wrong twice, but do carry on

It’s tough because I don’t think we naturally suit a 4123 but neither do we at all suit this 352 we are seeing. And for me we can’t weaken the midfield. So I don’t know if you can tweak the existing system to stop the high risk reward stuff but I doubt it without it becoming a back 5 and complete rearguard action.

Yeah, what we could do is dial down the risk/reward and execute fewer overloads (because we need those bodies further back to prevent the 1v1). But it wouldn't surprise me if we then scored fewer, which might exacerbate the problem if we're without three of the four strikers we've bought for hard cash over the last couple of seasons.

Results aren’t an opinion. Neither is the form table.

"We aren't good enough" is an opinion. You know that, because you even say "I think".

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem I have is we currently aren’t good enough to play an expansive possession based game with the system we are playing. Nor I think any system. We might not like that fact but it is for me a fact.

You spelt "opinion" wrong twice, but do carry on

It’s tough because I don’t think we naturally suit a 4123 but neither do we at all suit this 352 we are seeing. And for me we can’t weaken the midfield. So I don’t know if you can tweak the existing system to stop the high risk reward stuff but I doubt it without it becoming a back 5 and complete rearguard action.

Yeah, what we could do is dial down the risk/reward and execute fewer overloads (because we need those bodies further back to prevent the 1v1). But it wouldn't surprise me if we then scored fewer, which might exacerbate the problem if we're without three of the four strikers we've bought for hard cash over the last couple of seasons.

Results aren’t an opinion. Neither is the form table.

"We aren't good enough" is an opinion. You know that, because you even say "I think".

Currently….

And results demonstrate that. Unless we are just losing games cos we fancy it….

[Worthy4England]

For Barnsley's first goal, a player did precisely what the manager told him not to.

Indeed. You'd almost suggest it was systemic.

[DJBlu]

I'd say we're at the point wherw we need to find a way to win and stick with it.

What gets me is we don't do the bollocks that Exeter did when they went 2-1 up. When they equalised a "stoppage" in play would've allowed us to regroup and maybe let Evatt have a word.

Thing is we don't manage the game effectively. The game at that point needed slowing down.

[TANGODANCER]

Can't agree with that Dibs. JonBod is an intelligent player, not always at his best, be he has educated feet and and an intelligent brain. I must admit I was really disappointed when he had all the goal to head at to score and put it straight at the goalie yesterday, a flick either side and it's a goal. ; that was a schoolboy error, never head straight forward at goals, but he'd be in there for me. Certainly on the bench. We're really missing Dion.

[Bertie Wooster]

I'd say we're at the point wherw we need to find a way to win and stick with it.

What gets me is we don't do the bollocks that Exeter did when they went 2-1 up. When they equalised a "stoppage" in play would've allowed us to regroup and maybe let Evatt have a word.

Thing is we don't manage the game effectively. The game at that point needed slowing down.

It does appear that we don't have that many street wise players, also overall the players concentration levels are poor IMO - hence starting poor at the start of 2nd half's of games & switching of at times during games.

For me it is a squad mentality issue and has been for a while under Evatt.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'd say we're at the point wherw we need to find a way to win and stick with it.

What gets me is we don't do the bollocks that Exeter did when they went 2-1 up. When they equalised a "stoppage" in play would've allowed us to regroup and maybe let Evatt have a word.

Thing is we don't manage the game effectively. The game at that point needed slowing down.

It does appear that we don't have that many street wise players, also overall the players concentration levels are poor IMO - hence starting poor at the start of 2nd half's of games & switching of at times during games.

For me it is a squad mentality issue and has been for a while under Evatt.

On mentality I think the interview Evatt gave after Wigan was revealing. It didn’t show internal mental strength to me it showed pressure. I’m not sure that generally we have the mentality to cope with big games or the pressure moments.

[irie Cee Bee]

Wasn't able to watch the game live and have only seen the extended highlights on Wanderers TV, but it was telling. Our defense looked really weak. I felt sorry for our skipper. He was all at sea from the highlights in his positioning and clearances. I dont think he is anywhere back to his best from his injuries. Not picking on him alone as the others (Toal / Iredale) were not much better from the highlights.

Have to say, if they don't get back to the basics of defending, like a Forrester / Johnston type of tough defending, we will continue to concede loads.

By the way, I must add that Jerome has looked far more effective than Bod in recent games, and with Charles/ Ade / Mendez all out, must now be considered a starter.

[Mar]

Wasn't able to watch the game live and have only seen the extended highlights on Wanderers TV, but it was telling. Our defense looked really weak. I felt sorry for our skipper. He was all at sea from the highlights in his positioning and clearances. I dont think he is anywhere back to his best from his injuries. Not picking on him alone as the others (Toal / Iredale) were not much better from the highlights.

Have to say, if they don't get back to the basics of defending, like a Forrester / Johnston type of tough defending, we will continue to concede loads.

Hard to judge the quality of the defence based on the highlights. We'll always look worse on their attacks as they are literally highlights. Majority of the time, especially in that first half we had decent defending.

By the way, I must add that Jerome has looked far more effective than Bod in recent games, and with Charles/ Ade / Mendez all out, must now be considered a starter.

Jerome has looked really good. Trouble is I don't have confidence that he's going to score. I think he's been a little bit unfortunate in that regard and definitely warrants more goals than he has. It's reached the point where it seems like nothing is falling for Jerome or the ones that do, end up being blocked. It's a shame, but he's looking useful which is all we can hope for with our covering players.

[Mar]

I suspect words like “systemic” are being misused to fit a theory, or at least not used to stress-test alternatives like a 4-2-3-1.

Take yesterday’s game as an example. That first goal we scored, over which we were all rightly purring, came about because of overloads and movement. When Thomason whips in that gorgeous ball from 30 yards out, right by the touchline, Aaron Collins has passed him the ball and is now basically standing on chalk. Meanwhile, Gethin Jones is a yard from the angle of the penalty box. And that’s before we mention Sheehan, our supposed No.6, bursting into the box and cutting back from within five yards of the byline. None of those things happen in a “cautious” system with Collins as a 9, Geth as a stay-home right-back and Sheehan as anchorman. So that goal doesn’t happen. Neither do many others.

Exeter’s goals both came down our right. The first was a long diag in which Geth fails to win his header. He fails to win that header whether he’s nominally a wingback, a full-back or a linesman - it’s got nowt to do with The System. Nor does the fact that Toal is turned easily and Coleman is apparently on the way back to the dressing room as if he’s forgotten his gloves. Those are player errors.

For their second goal, Toal (a player I like a lot and hate digging out, but you can’t conduct an autopsy without a scalpel) is caught between two men and skitters, with dark hilarity in retrospect, between the two men - running away from the striker too late to reach the winger, but in doing so leaving the striker unmarked to run through onto the winger's pass. Now, there’s an argument to say a back four would have added a man there, but when we lost possession we were on the attack – and in the attack phase a back four leaves even more space down the sides of the centre-backs. Unless you keep both full-backs doggedly ‘at home’, in which case you aren’t scoring as many because you’re outnumbered.

The two goals we conceded at Barnsley. One is Tomo being caught in possession, which is nothing to do with formations (and, again, in a back four there’d be less cover behind him). The other is not clearing a corner, which is nothing to do with formations. But our first goal is (IMO) due to the fluidity of our formation.

Wigan’s goal: we’re set deep because they’ve had the ball for 20 seconds and we’ve flooded back – when the assist-pass is played we’ve literally got nine behind the ball. However, the runner sprints between Sheehan and JDC and behind Geth, none of whom even seem to notice. Not a formational system error, but a multiple player error.

Blackpool. Our goal created by JDC’s run making space for Dempsey to find Tomo. Their first: we’re in a good shape but nobody tackles the passer or the shooter. Their second: terrible defending on the line but we should also have stopped the cross coming in, which is less likely when you have a back four than a five (JDC was there, but in the box: too defensive?). Their third’s a penalty and their fourth when we’ve basically abandoned defence.

Cambridge away. For their goal, we’ve literally got eight men in our box but it loops off one of them. Not systemic.

Charlton 3-3. Ashworth assists Adeboyejo with a cross 10 yards from the byline – less likely in a cautious back four. They equalise from a deep cross (less likely to be cut out by a cautious back four) left untroubled by centre-back or goalkeeper. They go in front from a corner - not systemic. We equalise but let them score again when we have eight men in our box (one of them the stricken JDC). Not systemic. We equalise again with an assist from an overlapping wing-back. Systemic.

Etc and so on. This little ghost-train trip shows we have a lot of mistakes to get rid of, mistakes we didn't make when this system was working fine before Christmas. I'm not even totally against the idea of a back four, but I think the notion that it cures all ills is as naive as the worst of our defending.

Like yourself, I went and watched the goals that Coleman conceded to try and gauge if there were any repeated mistakes that should be addressed.

Middlesbrough: Concedes by rushing out too far, lobbed
Northampton: Beaten at near post, unfortunate with amount of bodies in the way
Wycombe: Concedes penalty by rushing out too far and fouling
Charlton 1: Misjudges flight of ball, looks easy but plenty to confuse the keeper there
Charlton 2: Ball to edge of area, fired in through loads of players, possibly late to react but thats probably due to being unsighted
Charlton 3: Seeming foul on JDC in build up, ball not cleared and then hit in off post
Cambridge (A): Lobbed after Maghoma mistake, no chance
Blackpool 1: Ref gives cheap free kick, spots that he's blocking their player and shows a passing avenue before 2 touch top corner shot, not much Coleman could do
Blackpool 2: Possibly slow to come and claim, blocks well initially but doesnt clear leading to follow up tap in
Blackpool 3: Concedes penalty and Rico red card by rushing out too far
Blackpool 4: Defence gone AWOL
Wigan: Rushes out, doesnt get there, seems to get injured in the process
Barnsley 1: Short pass to Thomason, bad control leading to tap in
Barnsley 2: Defence failing to clear ball in the box, leading to it smashed home
Exeter 1: Rushes out, gets lobbed
Exeter 2: Out initially, jogging backwards then decent finish over his head, question marks over positioning

I've highlighted the ones in bold as to where there seems to be a consistent problem that could be worked upon.

There's 6 instances out of 16 where his positioning is questionable. Of course, its a team game, but we'd all like to see Joel improve and that's probably the best starting point.

As for the rest of the goals we've conceded, theres a number of goals in there were we've been slow to clear the ball (Northampton, Charlton 3, Barnsley 2), but that may be attributed to mental and physical fatigue.

In terms of defensive mistakes, there's a number on the right side of the pitch with some intricate passing through our team that has seemingly become an issue. Hard to judge that's a result of the personnel or the style of play as we've had to rotate the squad quite considerably. Either way, there's possibly an argument for shoring up the passing channel there.

As for Coleman, well, he's a decent shot stopper and looks like he's capable of providing adequate goalkeeper coverage. We can't expect him to be as good as Baxter as he wouldn't be playing second fiddle in our squad if that was the case. We wouldn't have expected Baxter to be out as long as he has, so we're experiencing the brunt of it.

There's a decent keeper to be had in Coleman and it would seem like there's a few tweaks to his game that would solve a lot of the problems.

[MattySlug]

Ah I wanna make new topic of next home game midweek but my idea is to risqué maybe not sure exactly risqué means but ah my idea is too crazy to make topic title so I won’t
Just really excited as the next game is Broadcast here at 6:30AM odd so I will get to bed early the night before so I can watch it from beginning !

FC24358B-33DF-48F3-B196-C4635FC59977.jpeg (135.18 KiB) Viewed 257 times

[DJBlu]

Ah I wanna make new topic of next home game midweek but my idea is to risqué maybe not sure exactly risqué means but ah my idea is too crazy to make topic title so I won’t
Just really excited as the next game is Broadcast here at 6:30AM odd so I will get to bed early the night before so I can watch it from beginning !

FC24358B-33DF-48F3-B196-C4635FC59977.jpeg

Fill your boots, if it's too bad it'll be moderated. You'd be surprised what's acceptable on here. Match day language is sometimes atrocious, in fact it's downright filth.

Intrigued.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

For Barnsley's first goal, a player did precisely what the manager told him not to.

Indeed. You'd almost suggest it was systemic.

Aye, as in he worked against the system.

On mentality I think the interview Evatt gave after Wigan was revealing. It didn’t show internal mental strength to me it showed pressure. I’m not sure that generally we have the mentality to cope with big games or the pressure moments.

And yet we've come from behind to get points in 6 of the last 10. Shouldn't have been behind, sure, but a weak team collapses. I've seen it with Wanderers for years...


This place is insane.