Brexit or Britin

[Worthy4England]

I didn't realise you were being flippant

What a long memory you have, Grandma! The paper from CE has subsequently been backed up by others which certainly stand up to more scrutiny than Gideon's effort (not so much a forecast, more like the word of God). Of course no one really knows with any degree of certainty what short, medium and long term effects there will be, whether beneficial or otherwise. Apart from the Bish, of course. He has a hotline to the man who can tell us.

Unlike others, I am not so much obsessed with the economic argument. The corrupt and undemocratic nature of the EU, the current and future subservience of the UK (loss of sovereignty) and the issues around our inability to control our own legal system or borders without recourse to EU institutions concern me just as much.

Do you remember Dave coming back from Brussels with his equivalent of the"peace in our time" letter. According to him, he had reformed the EU after many hard fought arguments. He doesn't mention that much now does he?

He doesn't, but then again the political arguments are less of a problem for me, much as it was trumpeted in the press, there wasn't anything he was actually going to talk about that would have made an 'a'porth of difference - though I would agree "remain" put much stock in it, because Rupert Murdoch told them to. If you're talking corruption, then our very own expenses scandal didn't actually suggest anything other than our own system was fundamentally broke. You don't have to go back that far to find gerrymandering in Westminster, Reports on WMD's etc. Of course two broke things added together don't = a mended one.

The point about big businesses being able to move to beneficial taxation locations - either everyone in Europe (and globally) has a big push on that or they don't. UK, in or out of the EU ain't going to make a unilateral change damaging to our economy and to the benefit of another. I don't know if that's what you're suggesting we do? Nowt to do with Europe particularly.

Clearly Osborne and Cameron's reports show an "in favour of remaining" view. They've openly said they're in favour of "Remain". Roger Bootle (Capital Economics), most of UKIP's reporting, Patrick Minford etc. are hardly independent either - they've been in the "out" camp for donkey's years. So it would only be right to read those reports on the basis that they're written by someone who knows the answer they're looking to get to (no different than Cameron and Osborne).

No matter how you try to spin it, politicos in Westminster are pretty small fry in the corruption stakes compared to the EU which manages to mislay €5 to €6bn per year, every year.

Dave and Gideon, or Gida as I like to see the double act have been far more blatent with their spin/untruths bollocks than the other side. The never ending cast of villains they have recruited into their "project fear" enterprise is really sickening; the sight of the Bilderburgs cosying up to each other is showing the world the shameless ways in which democracy is readily subverted. The less gullible are laughing at the whole charade.

Let me finish laughing. Banana straightness, anyone? The outers have been at Project Fear for 30 years, despite the fact we can leave any time our elected representatives decide it's untenable. Now they're skrike arsing about Remain emplying the sane tactics. Unbelievable Jeff.

You'll be laughing on the other side of your face once the Byker Grovers have finished with Mordor. And who is skriking about emplying? Is it Jeff? I lost track of your point time ago. Project Fear been going for 30 years? Stretching it a bit there to describe Bill Cash as such but it seems you and the rest of the Remains (doesn't that sound like a skeleton dug up in the woods?) are partial to a bit of hyperbole yourselves. You can stick your straight bananas right up Gida's fundament.

Straight bananas was in the early 90's as was Major calling Portillo and Redwood amongst others, bastards. Thatcher's Bruges speech to appease her Eurosceptics was 1988...There were plenty more than Bill Cash.

I can understand you losing the thread. It's always been a bit too difficult for the outers to understand below a soundbite level, usually expressed in 86 point Times New Roman in The Sun. You could ask theBish to help. I'm sure he would.

[thebish]

The never ending cast of villains they have recruited into their "project fear" enterprise is really sickening

[bedwetter2]

The never ending cast of villains they have recruited into their "project fear" enterprise is really sickening

OK guv, it's a fair cop. You caught me red-handed. I'll go quietly.

Although I have told you a million times that I don't exaggerate.

The never ending cast of villains, I thought you would have recognised as a quote from Cicero and quite aptly describes many of your proponents in the Remains camp; Osborne, Hunt, Fallon, Cameron, Gauke, May, Obama Banana, Lagarde, Juncker, Schultz, Hollande, Merkin, Abe, Jinping, Turnbull, et al.

Call it, if you will, a coalition of the willing to override democracy and interfere in other nations internal affairs if you don't like "never ending cast of villains".

[Beefheart]

Still nowhere near as bad as the brexit lot, not even close.

[Worthy4England]

I'm glad we got onto overriding democracy. We should of course follow Michael Gove, open democrat that he is. Man who accepted his punishment from the information commissioner that it was wrong to send government info using his private e-mail in the hope that it then would not be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Very democratic.

We could of course take immigration advice from a bloke who's a dual national being born in the US or one who's also dead against more immigrants now his wife is here from Germany. That'll be ok then.

Maybe we should listen to the reports from creditable economists, predicting doom if we stay, same doom half of them were predicting 30 years ago (or maybe it's a different doom)...

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow, even with all the hyperbole no one will stoop low enough to bring Hitler into the wider debate, will they? Boris?!?! Is that you?!?!?

[bedwetter2]

I'm glad we got onto overriding democracy. We should of course follow Michael Gove, open democrat that he is. Man who accepted his punishment from the information commissioner that it was wrong to send government info using his private e-mail in the hope that it then would not be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Very democratic.

We could of course take immigration advice from a bloke who's a dual national being born in the US or one who's also dead against more immigrants now his wife is here from Germany. That'll be ok then.

Maybe we should listen to the reports from creditable economists, predicting doom if we stay, same doom half of them were predicting 30 years ago (or maybe it's a different doom)...

Now come Worthy, it's Sunday and there should be a little bit of quiet whilst the Bish is writing his sermon.
I don't remember saying I have any time for Gove, Boris or Farage (although Farage at least answers a straight question with a straight answer). Most of our politico's personalities are screwed on backwards - it's a fine line (as it is re the police) between attracting the corrupt and the public servant types. Most fall on the wrong side; as do the police.

[Worthy4England]

So should we leave, which one of the leading contenders would take the helm and deliver on the exit promises? It surely couldn't be tenable that Cameron/Osborne carry on as PM/Chancellor after the armegeddon they've predicted ? Or are we supposed to believe that they stay at the helm to deliver "Exit" not once ever saying "Sorry country, not our policy, you voted for out, don't blames us"...It couldn't be Farage as he's not even an MP (in fact wouldn't he be largely unemployed coz we wouldn't need MEP's), so I guess you'd need some form of Johnson/Gove/IDS as PM and Chancellor?

Last page you said for you it wasn't an economic dialogue, so here's a political one.

[Beefheart]

I'm glad we got onto overriding democracy. We should of course follow Michael Gove, open democrat that he is. Man who accepted his punishment from the information commissioner that it was wrong to send government info using his private e-mail in the hope that it then would not be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Very democratic.

We could of course take immigration advice from a bloke who's a dual national being born in the US or one who's also dead against more immigrants now his wife is here from Germany. That'll be ok then.

Maybe we should listen to the reports from creditable economists, predicting doom if we stay, same doom half of them were predicting 30 years ago (or maybe it's a different doom)...

Now come Worthy, it's Sunday and there should be a little bit of quiet whilst the Bish is writing his sermon.
I don't remember saying I have any time for Gove, Boris or Farage (although Farage at least answers a straight question with a straight answer). Most of our politico's personalities are screwed on backwards - it's a fine line (as it is re the police) between attracting the corrupt and the public servant types. Most fall on the wrong side; as do the police.

Come on, he gives reductive answers to what are often quite complex issues that require a nuanced response. I suppose it's easier to just say something that sounds like 'common sense'.

[Prufrock]

What, like "will you be staying on as UKIP leader?"

[Rjs37]

Boris Johnson really does not do himself or the Brexit campaign any favours by bringing up Hitler. He desperately needs someone to assist in what he should and shouldn't be saying.

Though I do find Hilary Benn's response saying "Leave campaigners have lost the economic argument and now they are losing their moral compass." as pretty ironic, considering how the Remain campaign has been conducting itself.

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind right about now.

[bedwetter2]

Boris Johnson really does not do himself or the Brexit campaign any favours by bringing up Hitler. He desperately needs someone to assist in what he should and shouldn't be saying.

Though I do find Hilary Benn's response saying "Leave campaigners have lost the economic argument and now they are losing their moral compass." as pretty ironic, considering how the Remain campaign has been conducting itself.

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind right about now.

All part of the bluster of the Remains. I suppose they believe that if said loud and often enough "lost the economic argument" may be believed. The Remains truly are deluded and their lurid projections are crap.

[bedwetter2]

I'm glad we got onto overriding democracy. We should of course follow Michael Gove, open democrat that he is. Man who accepted his punishment from the information commissioner that it was wrong to send government info using his private e-mail in the hope that it then would not be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Very democratic.

We could of course take immigration advice from a bloke who's a dual national being born in the US or one who's also dead against more immigrants now his wife is here from Germany. That'll be ok then.

Maybe we should listen to the reports from creditable economists, predicting doom if we stay, same doom half of them were predicting 30 years ago (or maybe it's a different doom)...

Now come Worthy, it's Sunday and there should be a little bit of quiet whilst the Bish is writing his sermon.
I don't remember saying I have any time for Gove, Boris or Farage (although Farage at least answers a straight question with a straight answer). Most of our politico's personalities are screwed on backwards - it's a fine line (as it is re the police) between attracting the corrupt and the public servant types. Most fall on the wrong side; as do the police.

Come on, he gives reductive answers to what are often quite complex issues that require a nuanced response. I suppose it's easier to just say something that sounds like 'common sense'.

Does he? I don't remember many complex questions being asked of him. Maybe I'm not nuanced enough or just don't care for personalities. In fact, for many people, their views are based upon whether they like or dislike the individuals. Heaven help us. Just concentrate on the main issues you mentally challenged electorate.

[Prufrock]

Boris Johnson really does not do himself or the Brexit campaign any favours by bringing up Hitler. He desperately needs someone to assist in what he should and shouldn't be saying.

Though I do find Hilary Benn's response saying "Leave campaigners have lost the economic argument and now they are losing their moral compass." as pretty ironic, considering how the Remain campaign has been conducting itself.

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind right about now.

All part of the bluster of the Remains. I suppose they believe that if said loud and often enough "lost the economic argument" may be believed. The Remains truly are deluded and their lurid projections are crap.

That'll be the Bilderbergs

[bedwetter2]

So should we leave, which one of the leading contenders would take the helm and deliver on the exit promises? It surely couldn't be tenable that Cameron/Osborne carry on as PM/Chancellor after the armegeddon they've predicted ? Or are we supposed to believe that they stay at the helm to deliver "Exit" not once ever saying "Sorry country, not our policy, you voted for out, don't blames us"...It couldn't be Farage as he's not even an MP (in fact wouldn't he be largely unemployed coz we wouldn't need MEP's), so I guess you'd need some form of Johnson/Gove/IDS as PM and Chancellor?

Last page you said for you it wasn't an economic dialogue, so here's a political one.

I don't know which one of the leading contenders would take the helm in the event of a leave vote. My own slight preference - the best of a bad bunch - is not a leading contender but could be seen by the electorate as less remote than Dodgy Dave; David Davis. A thinker but not too cerebral, strong morals and a bit of a pugilist. I doubt that he would get a foot in the door having to compete against Bozzer.

Cameron and Osborne will be forced out soon after a leave vote.

[bedwetter2]

Boris Johnson really does not do himself or the Brexit campaign any favours by bringing up Hitler. He desperately needs someone to assist in what he should and shouldn't be saying.

Though I do find Hilary Benn's response saying "Leave campaigners have lost the economic argument and now they are losing their moral compass." as pretty ironic, considering how the Remain campaign has been conducting itself.

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind right about now.

All part of the bluster of the Remains. I suppose they believe that if said loud and often enough "lost the economic argument" may be believed. The Remains truly are deluded and their lurid projections are crap.

That'll be the Bilderbergs

After great deliberation I have decided to call them the Davosite-Wankers. Everyone likes a doubled barreled name.

[thebish]

today in the vote leave campaign...

they are definitely not invoking any kind of fear tactics (no - not a bit of it) by running around hysterically and sreaming "THE MURDERING TURKS ARE COMING TO KILL YOUR FAMILY! RUUUUUUUUUN!!"

meanwhile - Farridge - still miffed that he wasn't invited onto Boris blunder-Bus has been squawking on about there needing to be a second referendum if they lose this one narrowly - cos this one won't have been fair...

(Hoboh will be along soon to be outraged by this idea that you have referendums until you get the answer you want - he often tells us that the EU and the scots do this - so he is bound to be utterly outraged and angered by Farridge....) it DOES seem a little tiny bit massively desperate a month BEFORE the referendum to be talking about needing a second one cos you think you might lose it...

[Beefheart]

Anyone know much about polling? Why is there such a disparity between the results of the online vs phone polls for the referendum? Is one or the other more reliable? Phone Polls give big lead to remain - Online Polls are neck and neck.

[BWFC_Insane]

Anyone know much about polling? Why is there such a disparity between the results of the online vs phone polls for the referendum? Is one or the other more reliable? Phone Polls give big lead to remain - Online Polls are neck and neck.

Truth is I think even the experts who study polling don't know.

I've heard a theory that online polls skew towards the politically engaged somehow, which may make them less accurate. But look at the last election, the polling companies ended up with too many young, left leaning folk in their samples and failed to weight for the fact that many of those people don't vote compared to the old Tory gimmers.

[Hoboh]

Anyone know much about polling? Why is there such a disparity between the results of the online vs phone polls for the referendum? Is one or the other more reliable? Phone Polls give big lead to remain - Online Polls are neck and neck.

All I know is that over the weekend I have spoken to around 20 friends and family and the subject of the vote came up, (not my doing I must hasten to add) and to my surprise actually, being they come from a wide political spectrum, to a person they all said they would be voting 'out'.
The main reason given, the fear, yes fear of what the EU is going to dump on us in future, Merkel and the Germans got many a mention.
Hardly scientific, but there you go, some of them were nailed on 'in' voters in my eyes.

Bish, I've said it before, the result is the result, I'll sit back, laugh and watch the faux outrage of those conned into 'vote stay' when the EU policies start to effect their mainly middleclass lives.
Encouraging the youth with little knowledge of history and somewhat naïve in out look to vote yes is akin to Turkey's voting for Christmas.
On the subject of Turkey one slightly deluded youth told me it would mean cheaper holidays there if we stayed in!