Brexit or Britin

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

apologies, I always need the information diluting when it comes to this politics business...

ive still no idea, im enjoying reading all the debate, they come out with all these facts, figures and statements - but its still impossible to tell if any of them are really true!?

is there anywhere I can read a valid, un-biased, 100% true list of for & against arguments?

Try here https://fullfact.org/europe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not so much arguments for or against, but tells you if the propaganda is true or not.

[thebish]

apologies, I always need the information diluting when it comes to this politics business...

ive still no idea, im enjoying reading all the debate, they come out with all these facts, figures and statements - but its still impossible to tell if any of them are really true!?

is there anywhere I can read a valid, un-biased, 100% true list of for & against arguments?

I think this is as good as you will get - not a list of for/against - but a thorough fact-check of all the claims that have been made in/out..

https://fullfact.org/europe/

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Is there an echo in here?

[BWFC_Insane]

I've always thought if it is a brexit vote then those that vote out should be prepared to shoulder the burden of any financial pain for the rest of us.

They should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the brexit campaign and out voters.

I certainly will be holding them to account should things go downhill in that event.

And similarly the inners should shoulder the same for the consequences of staying in. I assume you think the tory voters should be shouldering the pain of austerity or labour voters Iraq etc

It is a bit different. Voting for a party to carry out policies is far more difficult to predict. Had there been a direct vote for war or not for example....suspect we'd have not gone to war.

And yes I don't have a problem with those voting and campaigning for status quo taking the consequence of that. Ultimately should the vote be "in" the government WILL HAVE to.

The problem is, if we vote out and the economy shrinks and we end up in recession, I suspect the likes of Farage won't be seen for dust....

[Worthy4England]

I've always thought if it is a brexit vote then those that vote out should be prepared to shoulder the burden of any financial pain for the rest of us.

They should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the brexit campaign and out voters.

I certainly will be holding them to account should things go downhill in that event.

And similarly the inners should shoulder the same for the consequences of staying in. I assume you think the tory voters should be shouldering the pain of austerity or labour voters Iraq etc

It is a bit different. Voting for a party to carry out policies is far more difficult to predict. Had there been a direct vote for war or not for example....suspect we'd have not gone to war.

And yes I don't have a problem with those voting and campaigning for status quo taking the consequence of that. Ultimately should the vote be "in" the government WILL HAVE to.

The problem is, if we vote out and the economy shrinks and we end up in recession, I suspect the likes of Farage won't be seen for dust....

Easy solved, put him in the Brexit cabinet - make him Minister for Trade.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I've always thought if it is a brexit vote then those that vote out should be prepared to shoulder the burden of any financial pain for the rest of us.

They should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the brexit campaign and out voters.

I certainly will be holding them to account should things go downhill in that event.

And similarly the inners should shoulder the same for the consequences of staying in. I assume you think the tory voters should be shouldering the pain of austerity or labour voters Iraq etc

It is a bit different. Voting for a party to carry out policies is far more difficult to predict. Had there been a direct vote for war or not for example....suspect we'd have not gone to war.

And yes I don't have a problem with those voting and campaigning for status quo taking the consequence of that. Ultimately should the vote be "in" the government WILL HAVE to.

The problem is, if we vote out and the economy shrinks and we end up in recession, I suspect the likes of Farage won't be seen for dust....

Not really. You're voting for a manifesto that a government can and has promised to carry out and has the means to do so. With the referendum you're voting for something that the government may or may not have promised to do. It's entirely different.

Both sides are making ludicrous claims, so why should people be demonised for believing some claims and not others?

[BWFC_Insane]

I've always thought if it is a brexit vote then those that vote out should be prepared to shoulder the burden of any financial pain for the rest of us.

They should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the brexit campaign and out voters.

I certainly will be holding them to account should things go downhill in that event.

And similarly the inners should shoulder the same for the consequences of staying in. I assume you think the tory voters should be shouldering the pain of austerity or labour voters Iraq etc

It is a bit different. Voting for a party to carry out policies is far more difficult to predict. Had there been a direct vote for war or not for example....suspect we'd have not gone to war.

And yes I don't have a problem with those voting and campaigning for status quo taking the consequence of that. Ultimately should the vote be "in" the government WILL HAVE to.

The problem is, if we vote out and the economy shrinks and we end up in recession, I suspect the likes of Farage won't be seen for dust....

Not really. You're voting for a manifesto that a government can and has promised to carry out and has the means to do so. With the referendum you're voting for something that the government may or may not have promised to do. It's entirely different.

Both sides are making ludicrous claims, so why should people be demonised for believing some claims and not others?

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

[Bruce Rioja]

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

Get your purse out then. You did vote for Blair and Brown, didn't you?! You've excelled yourself on the shite-o-meter here!

[BWFC_Insane]

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

Get your purse out then. You did vote for Blair and Brown, didn't you?! You've excelled yourself on the shite-o-meter here!

There is a massive difference. Blair and Brown were not directly responsible for the credit crunch. I also did not get a vote on a key economic issue.

Also and crucially, as a country we vote the government in, but can choose to get rid the next time. If we leave the EU we have no recourse over the Brexit campaign, I cannot choose to vote them out, because they aren't currently in power. And therefore, how can I hold them to account?

[Bruce Rioja]

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

Get your purse out then. You did vote for Blair and Brown, didn't you?! You've excelled yourself on the shite-o-meter here!

There is a massive difference. Blair and Brown were not directly responsible for the credit crunch. I also did not get a vote on a key economic issue.

Also and crucially, as a country we vote the government in, but can choose to get rid the next time. If we leave the EU we have no recourse over the Brexit campaign, I cannot choose to vote them out, because they aren't currently in power. And therefore, how can I hold them to account?

No, there isn't a massive difference, they're equally as fecking ridiculous.

[Rjs37]

I've always thought if it is a brexit vote then those that vote out should be prepared to shoulder the burden of any financial pain for the rest of us.

They should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the brexit campaign and out voters.

I certainly will be holding them to account should things go downhill in that event.

And similarly the inners should shoulder the same for the consequences of staying in. I assume you think the tory voters should be shouldering the pain of austerity or labour voters Iraq etc

It is a bit different. Voting for a party to carry out policies is far more difficult to predict. Had there been a direct vote for war or not for example....suspect we'd have not gone to war.

And yes I don't have a problem with those voting and campaigning for status quo taking the consequence of that. Ultimately should the vote be "in" the government WILL HAVE to.

The problem is, if we vote out and the economy shrinks and we end up in recession, I suspect the likes of Farage won't be seen for dust....

Not really. You're voting for a manifesto that a government can and has promised to carry out and has the means to do so. With the referendum you're voting for something that the government may or may not have promised to do. It's entirely different.

Both sides are making ludicrous claims, so why should people be demonised for believing some claims and not others?

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

That's just laughable. I'm all for accountability but at the end of the day this is a referendum for the UK public. The politicians have given the choice to the people and it is down to them to decide which way to vote. Whatever way the vote goes that is the public's decision as a whole. Surprisingly this isn't about accountability and credit, this is about voting for what we feel is best for the country in the long term.

Besides, how exactly would we determine whether things have gone downhill due to the way the vote went or just because? Hell you don't even know where the goalposts are, unless you've got a crystal ball to tell you exactly how things would have been if we stayed in. And how long do we hold them accountable? 5 years? 20?

Should we also hold those in the 70's accountable for keeping us in when we're the only continent (other than Antarctica) which hasn't doubled their GDP over the past decade? Of course not, that would just be ludicrous, oh wait...

[Worthy4England]

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

Get your purse out then. You did vote for Blair and Brown, didn't you?! You've excelled yourself on the shite-o-meter here!

There is a massive difference. Blair and Brown were not directly responsible for the credit crunch. I also did not get a vote on a key economic issue.

Also and crucially, as a country we vote the government in, but can choose to get rid the next time. If we leave the EU we have no recourse over the Brexit campaign, I cannot choose to vote them out, because they aren't currently in power. And therefore, how can I hold them to account?

Is this stupid-notion-o'clock?

Blair and Brown not directly responsible for Credit Crunch - what about supporting the Iraq war?

The electorate will vote in or out, largely based on what the in and/or out campaign are telling them. I agree there shouldn't be a dissociation between those making the promises relating to Brexit and those who will deliver on them - I can't see how Cameron/Osborne could possibly be accountable for any promises that were broken.

Much though I'd like to charge Hoboh for any unexpected "costs" or promises broken, the nation will have directed the Government to act in a particular manner, not just Hoboh.

[thebish]

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

what does that even mean - they should take responsibility? spell it out for us...

[Worthy4England]

Surprisingly this isn't about accountability

I agree with much of what you're saying apart from this bit.

Brexit are making very specific promises - they should be accountable for keeping them. (Same for Remain - but reality is Remain are currently running the government)

I'd expect to see absolutely (to name but a few)

1) Trade Agreements within two years
2) Immigration come down quickly to the numbers Brexit are suggesting (on a like for like basis)
3) Extra £100m per week for the NHS
4) All farmers subsidies retained
5) VAT on Fuel straight off
6) "Immediate" rewriting of legislation relating to the EU
7) 300,00 new jobs (with no major losses in the overall unemployment level

Etc. etc.

They need to be accountable for all these - or the Government of the day needs to be accountable for them.

[Rjs37]

Much though I'd like to charge Hoboh for any unexpected "costs" or promises broken, the nation will have directed the Government to act in a particular manner, not just Hoboh.

Unless Brexit wins by a single vote, then you could maybe blame him (or any other Brexiter) .

[Worthy4England]

Much though I'd like to charge Hoboh for any unexpected "costs" or promises broken, the nation will have directed the Government to act in a particular manner, not just Hoboh.

Unless Brexit wins by a single vote, then you could maybe blame him (or any other Brexiter) .

Look, I'm going to blame Hoboh even if we vote to remain and it goes tits up.

[thebish]

Surprisingly this isn't about accountability

I agree with much of what you're saying apart from this bit.

Brexit are making very specific promises - they should be accountable for keeping them. (Same for Remain - but reality is Remain are currently running the government)

I'd expect to see absolutely (to name but a few)

1) Trade Agreements within two years
2) Immigration come down quickly to the numbers Brexit are suggesting (on a like for like basis)
3) Extra £100m per week for the NHS
4) All farmers subsidies retained
5) VAT on Fuel straight off
6) "Immediate" rewriting of legislation relating to the EU
7) 300,00 new jobs (with no major losses in the overall unemployment level

Etc. etc.

They need to be accountable for all these - or the Government of the day needs to be accountable for them.

I REALLY don't want the brexiters to be accountable - cos that would mean they were the fecking government...

[thebish]

Much though I'd like to charge Hoboh for any unexpected "costs" or promises broken, the nation will have directed the Government to act in a particular manner, not just Hoboh.

Unless Brexit wins by a single vote, then you could maybe blame him (or any other Brexiter) .

Look, I'm going to blame Hoboh even if we vote to remain and it goes tits up.

free run - as he will say no more on the matter - his lips are sealed... zip....

[Worthy4England]

We shouldn't be in a position where the Government that's in power can say "we've not taken VAT of fuel, we never made that promise"...

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I've always thought if it is a brexit vote then those that vote out should be prepared to shoulder the burden of any financial pain for the rest of us.

They should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions. That includes the brexit campaign and out voters.

I certainly will be holding them to account should things go downhill in that event.

And similarly the inners should shoulder the same for the consequences of staying in. I assume you think the tory voters should be shouldering the pain of austerity or labour voters Iraq etc

It is a bit different. Voting for a party to carry out policies is far more difficult to predict. Had there been a direct vote for war or not for example....suspect we'd have not gone to war.

And yes I don't have a problem with those voting and campaigning for status quo taking the consequence of that. Ultimately should the vote be "in" the government WILL HAVE to.

The problem is, if we vote out and the economy shrinks and we end up in recession, I suspect the likes of Farage won't be seen for dust....

Not really. You're voting for a manifesto that a government can and has promised to carry out and has the means to do so. With the referendum you're voting for something that the government may or may not have promised to do. It's entirely different.

Both sides are making ludicrous claims, so why should people be demonised for believing some claims and not others?

They should take responsibility. Currently we're in the EU. If we end up not in it and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

We currently have a Tory government. If we end up with a Labour government and it goes tits up there should be accountability. Just like I'm sure they'll want credit if all goes swimmingly.

FFS, in your world do folk go around patting themselves on their back because they voted Tory and that meant something didn't happen that might have happened and by voting you are some sort of clairvoyant?

Once again, I invite you to go give your head a shake.