The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

We also know he got the 18-34 voters out to levels not seen in the past 60 years or so. Which is some achievement.

I've seen you state this with the utmost certainty as a fact that affected results. My question- a genuine one and asked because I don't know the answer- is: How do you know? Is it a monitored situation, was there a poll....or is it just an assumption based on opinion.?

There aren't "official figures" for this, as it's a secret ballot (like with all elections) - so no formal records. The way this is generally worked out is through post-election polling by polling organisations (the same ones that predicted a landslide for Cons - but got the exit poll right).

So far I think one (at least - YouGov) surveyed 50,000 people in the age group 18-29 and it revealed that the turn out was indeed up and most of that turnout voted for Corbyn..Lord Ashcroft's exit poll seems to support this albeit with higher figures. Ipsos Mori due to report later this week.

Whether it's right or wrong depends on how accurate you believe polling is.

[Lord Kangana]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

[TANGODANCER]

We also know he got the 18-34 voters out to levels not seen in the past 60 years or so. Which is some achievement.

I've seen you state this with the utmost certainty as a fact that affected results. My question- a genuine one and asked because I don't know the answer- is: How do you know? Is it a monitored situation, was there a poll....or is it just an assumption based on opinion.?

There aren't "official figures" for this, as it's a secret ballot (like with all elections) - so no formal records. The way this is generally worked out is through post-election polling by polling organisations (the same ones that predicted a landslide for Cons - but got the exit poll right).

So far I think one (at least - YouGov) surveyed 50,000 people in the age group 18-29 and it revealed that the turn out was indeed up and most of that turnout voted for Corbyn..Lord Ashcroft's exit poll seems to support this albeit with higher figures. Ipsos Mori due to report later this week. Whether it's right or wrong depends on how accurate you believe polling is

Thanks for the sensible anwer Worthy. See, my reason for asking goes beyond any basic elasticty and " indications show"and takes into account that an 18 year old ( what's in it for me?) view, may well differ widely from that of a maturer 30 year old with a little life experience. How many for instance are in the can't work, won't work sector and how many vote for anythin g with the most promise of "benefits" attached to it's bullhorn? How many amongst the young ( or amongst any level) care about the actual running of the country as opposed to the personal wants? In another forum, a poster (name hidden for outrage reasons. ) claims he doesn't give a shiny one about Bolton as a club and business, only about match day and his entertainment) . The answers seem to be in the results, a rocky sort of 50-50, which doesn't really tell us anything much at all about anything. Sort of, " Michael Fish said"....Meanwhile, over in Parliament...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Point of order here, but does his website actually say ferment, rather than the more appropriate foment?

I believe you ferment the overthrow of capitalism by getting the masses raging drunk.

[BWFC_Insane]

Thanks for the sensible anwer Worthy. See, my reason for asking goes beyond any basic elasticty and " indications show"and takes into account that an 18 year old ( what's in it for me?) view, may well differ widely from that of a maturer 30 year old with a little life experience. How many for instance are in the can't work, won't work sector and how many vote for anythin g with the most promise of "benefits" attached to it's bullhorn? How many amongst the young ( or amongst any level) care about the actual running of the country as opposed to the personal wants? In another forum, a poster (name hidden for outrage reasons. ) claims he doesn't give a shiny one about Bolton as a club and business, only about match day and his entertainment) . The answers seem to be in the results, a rocky sort of 50-50, which doesn't really tell us anything much at all about anything. Sort of, " Michael Fish said"....Meanwhile, over in Parliament...

Evidence suggests that the younger people are the less they vote for personal gain and the more they vote socially for mutual benefit. Or at least that is how they perceive it. Whereas older people vote in their own self interests. It is why there is a perception that young people are more radically and socially engaged politically. And why the Tories have (until this election) generally protected pensioners as they know they will be more likely to vote Tory.

I think it is absolutely insulting to brand young people in this country as you have just done. They would easily retort that old buggers like you vote purely out of personal self interest and have no stake or interest in the future of the country as the whole.

No wonder the country is in such a mess when intelligent people like yourself write off entire generations in the way you are. The more people spout this nonsense the more it will motivate them to come out and express their views at the ballot box. Surely the views of 18 year olds are just as, if not even more pertinent, when making decisions for how the country is run than those who frankly won't be here to see it?

[Worthy4England]

I suspect that there's a lot of strongly held beliefs in the older age-groups in relation to "I've always voted Labour since..." or "I've always voted Tory since..."...Some of the scars that caused the entrenchment will never be removed, so I'm sure there's a group of people who would almost never come off the base they're on. Someone would have to propose murdering children as a population control strategy, to get them to re-consider. Younger you go, the less likely you are to have those scars (albeit some might be "inherited" by upbringing)...so probably more open to persuasion and less intransigent...

So the younger ones have the disadvantage of never having seen it, the older ones have the disadvantage of having seen it so stuck in the same place almost in many cases irregardless of whether it's actually right or wrong, they argue themselves into supporting their team.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Point of order here, but does his website actually say ferment, rather than the more appropriate foment?

I believe you ferment the overthrow of capitalism by getting the masses raging drunk.

Oh, and yes, his website did say ferment (since removed) according to many reputable sources.

[BWFC_Insane]

What makes me laugh is the pre-war and baby boomer generations that have left us in the mess we are in. Yet they then want to say they are the ones with "life experience" and the millenials should keep quiet. Thankfully as a generation Xer I can sit in between. The divisive behaviour from each is very damaging for society. Especially the sort of tripe a very sensible and intelligent bloke like TD has just written.

[TANGODANCER]

What makes me laugh is the pre-war and baby boomer generations that have left us in the mess we are in. Yet they then want to say they are the ones with "life experience" and the millenials should keep quiet. Thankfully as a generation Xer I can sit in between. The divisive behaviour from each is very damaging for society. Especially the sort of tripe a very sensible and intelligent bloke like TD has just written.

Oh dear dear. Where to start? This reminds me why I show little interest in politics or rarely post views on it. How about reading it again my Insane friend, then realising it was preceded by a question admitting a definite "don't know"? Where did I insult anybody in that respect? How many question marks are there in my posts? What makes me laugh when people claim to sit in between is, have they no kids, parents or grandparents of their own? Are they the ones (the owd dodderers like your parents and grandparents)who spent thier lives working in cotton mills, down pits and in overalls) who are responsible for "the mess we are in"? Do either/neither of them count more than the others when you keep making broad sweeping statements on the assumption your opinion is the golden stairway to never never land? You will, presumably be employed, so therefore only get out amongst it all at weekends. How, I wonder, do you see those who fill the pages of The Bolton News daily as potential country runners? Worthy's figure of 50,00 asked pales a little when put against the 46 million registered to vote in England.( Yes, I checked)
The difference between us amigo, is that I don't know the best way to run Bolton Wanderers or the country...so I admit it and ask questions. Nuff said.

[BWFC_Insane]

What makes me laugh is the pre-war and baby boomer generations that have left us in the mess we are in. Yet they then want to say they are the ones with "life experience" and the millenials should keep quiet. Thankfully as a generation Xer I can sit in between. The divisive behaviour from each is very damaging for society. Especially the sort of tripe a very sensible and intelligent bloke like TD has just written.

Oh dear dear. Where to start? This reminds me why I show little interest in politics or rarely post views on it. How about reading it again my Insane friend, then realising it was preceded by a question admitting a definite "don't know"? Where did I insult anybody in that respect? How many question marks are there in my posts? What makes me laugh when people claim to sit in between is, have they no kids, parents or grandparents of their own? Are they the ones (the owd dodderers like your parents and grandparents)who spent thier lives working in cotton mills, down pits and in overalls) who are responsible for "the mess we are in"? Do either/neither of them count more than the others when you keep making broad sweeping statements on the assumption your opinion is the golden stairway to never never land? You will, presumably be employed, so therefore only get out amongst it all at weekends. How, I wonder, do you see those who fill the pages of The Bolton News daily as potential country runners? Worthy's figure of 50,00 asked pales a little when put against the 46 million registered to vote in England.( Yes, I checked)
The difference between us amigo, is that I don't know the best way to run Bolton Wanderers or the country...so I admit it and ask questions. Nuff said.

You asked a serious of "loaded" questions that all were targeted at "naive workshy youngsters" knowing less than "more mature voters". A standard accusation of the right wing media. To make it worse you further insinuated that younger voters are more likely to vote for selfish reasons - something that actually isn't borne out by any voting pattern or data and is actually the opposite of the generally observed pattern.

I don't think personally that you can hide behind the fact you asked questions. Because you didn't ask open and unloaded questions. It would be like me walking up to you in the street and saying "are you a moron?".

The divisive nature of politics is only worsened by this sort of thing. Isn't an 18 year old's opinion precious? They are the very people who will end up living through the recent results and beyond.

And as for generations, of course I include my parents in that group etc...but I'm aware enough to know that you cannot sweep any generation into a single basket. I'm very happy for everyone to acknowledge everyone else's right for a say. And not to try and diminish the voices of people different to ourselves. I do think older generations should be very, very careful in how they react, especially when it is very easy to accuse them of primarily being responsible for the situation we are in. 18 year olds have very little responsibility for that. Why would you want them disenfranchised...they may even have a trick or two that we've missed before.

[TANGODANCER]

^^

Aye, okay....

[Hoboh]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

BBC

Guardian

Faily Mirror

There is a more or less equal distribution of Right/left, it is not the fault of those leaning to the right that they are the more popular/better subscribed is it?
And leaving the 'media' aside, hard Brexit seems to be the invented mantra of the Clegg's and Farron's of this world propped up by the Millar's and Blair's, the soft left, even the hard left have enough sense to keep quiet about it until they know what's going on.

[BWFC_Insane]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

BBC

Guardian

Faily Mirror

There is a more or less equal distribution of Right/left, it is not the fault of those leaning to the right that they are the more popular/better subscribed is it?
And leaving the 'media' aside, hard Brexit seems to be the invented mantra of the Clegg's and Farron's of this world propped up by the Millar's and Blair's, the soft left, even the hard left have enough sense to keep quiet about it until they know what's going on.

The BBC are most definitely not part of the partisan media. You might note that a number of Labour campaigners felt the BBC were biased towards the Torys. It is an absolute nonsense to throw them in with openly partisan newspapers.

The only open partisan left leaning publication is the Mirror. The Guardian didn't even back Corbyn until the final day of the election campaign.

But even if you include the guardian and Mirror. For the right you have the Sun, Mail, Express and Torygraph. Plus sky.

That's a huge, chunk of right wing media, the Murdoch empire. All pointing in one direction.

[Hoboh]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

BBC

Guardian

Faily Mirror

There is a more or less equal distribution of Right/left, it is not the fault of those leaning to the right that they are the more popular/better subscribed is it?
And leaving the 'media' aside, hard Brexit seems to be the invented mantra of the Clegg's and Farron's of this world propped up by the Millar's and Blair's, the soft left, even the hard left have enough sense to keep quiet about it until they know what's going on.

The BBC are most definitely not part of the partisan media. You might note that a number of Labour campaigners felt the BBC were biased towards the Torys. It is an absolute nonsense to throw them in with openly partisan newspapers.

The only open partisan left leaning publication is the Mirror. The Guardian didn't even back Corbyn until the final day of the election campaign.

But even if you include the guardian and Mirror. For the right you have the Sun, Mail, Express and Torygraph. Plus sky.

That's a huge, chunk of right wing media, the Murdoch empire. All pointing in one direction.

You mean 'the BBC' that edited a film clip to suit the PC leftist agenda recently?

The BBC that has impartial programme audiences?

The BBC that know sooner or later a right leaning government will closely scrutinise it's funding?

Ah, right, carry on.

As for the Guardian, hard Brexit has been the mantra more or less since the referendum poll closed and every time an EU 'personality' pops their head above the parapet, it's the truth and what's going to happen.
Reading it every day I can state that as a fact.

[BWFC_Insane]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

BBC

Guardian

Faily Mirror

There is a more or less equal distribution of Right/left, it is not the fault of those leaning to the right that they are the more popular/better subscribed is it?
And leaving the 'media' aside, hard Brexit seems to be the invented mantra of the Clegg's and Farron's of this world propped up by the Millar's and Blair's, the soft left, even the hard left have enough sense to keep quiet about it until they know what's going on.

The BBC are most definitely not part of the partisan media. You might note that a number of Labour campaigners felt the BBC were biased towards the Torys. It is an absolute nonsense to throw them in with openly partisan newspapers.

The only open partisan left leaning publication is the Mirror. The Guardian didn't even back Corbyn until the final day of the election campaign.

But even if you include the guardian and Mirror. For the right you have the Sun, Mail, Express and Torygraph. Plus sky.

That's a huge, chunk of right wing media, the Murdoch empire. All pointing in one direction.

You mean 'the BBC' that edited a film clip to suit the PC leftist agenda recently?

The BBC that has impartial programme audiences?

The BBC that know sooner or later a right leaning government will closely scrutinise it's funding?

Ah, right, carry on.

As for the Guardian, hard Brexit has been the mantra more or less since the referendum poll closed and every time an EU 'personality' pops their head above the parapet, it's the truth and what's going to happen.
Reading it every day I can state that as a fact.

You read too much right wing junk so cannot see what balanced media looks like.

See the apologies that Laura K woman on the BBC had to issue after going after Corbyn during the campaign. She's the main political correspondent on the BBC and was openly May over Corbyn. Doesn't make them biased by the way, just not left leaning. Audiences were drawn up not by the BBC but by polling companies. On reflection after the actual poll I don't think anyone could say the breakdown of views in the audience was skewed in any way.

As for editing film clips, the BBC removed a clip yesterday where a resident of the tower block accused local businesses and the council of deliberately starting the fire. The horrible leftist leaning organisation they are....oh.....ooops.

[Hoboh]

I see another bellend Lib Dem has cut and run.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dem-leader

Surprised anyone can vote for a party incapable of choosing a decent leader.

[Hoboh]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

BBC

Guardian

Faily Mirror

There is a more or less equal distribution of Right/left, it is not the fault of those leaning to the right that they are the more popular/better subscribed is it?
And leaving the 'media' aside, hard Brexit seems to be the invented mantra of the Clegg's and Farron's of this world propped up by the Millar's and Blair's, the soft left, even the hard left have enough sense to keep quiet about it until they know what's going on.

The BBC are most definitely not part of the partisan media. You might note that a number of Labour campaigners felt the BBC were biased towards the Torys. It is an absolute nonsense to throw them in with openly partisan newspapers.

The only open partisan left leaning publication is the Mirror. The Guardian didn't even back Corbyn until the final day of the election campaign.

But even if you include the guardian and Mirror. For the right you have the Sun, Mail, Express and Torygraph. Plus sky.

That's a huge, chunk of right wing media, the Murdoch empire. All pointing in one direction.

You mean 'the BBC' that edited a film clip to suit the PC leftist agenda recently?

The BBC that has impartial programme audiences?

The BBC that know sooner or later a right leaning government will closely scrutinise it's funding?

Ah, right, carry on.

As for the Guardian, hard Brexit has been the mantra more or less since the referendum poll closed and every time an EU 'personality' pops their head above the parapet, it's the truth and what's going to happen.
Reading it every day I can state that as a fact.

You read too much right wing junk so cannot see what balanced media looks like.

See the apologies that Laura K woman on the BBC had to issue after going after Corbyn during the campaign. She's the main political correspondent on the BBC and was openly May over Corbyn. Doesn't make them biased by the way, just not left leaning. Audiences were drawn up not by the BBC but by polling companies. On reflection after the actual poll I don't think anyone could say the breakdown of views in the audience was skewed in any way.

Do I?
Reading the guardian everyday, maybe flicking the Mail 2 or 3 times a week, Torygraph? about once a week, Al-Jazeera about the same, the odd Russian publication to find out the 'otherside' of the free Syria mob, too much 'right-wing' reading, really?
Maybe your problem is a lack of ability to read a variety of reporting sources with out bias?

[Hoboh]

As for editing film clips, the BBC removed a clip yesterday where a resident of the tower block accused local businesses and the council of deliberately starting the fire. The horrible leftist leaning organisation they are....oh.....ooops.

Now't to do with being removed for legal reasons then?
I, nor you, nor anyone else know the cause of the tragedy yet and that includes the Daily Mails 'exploding fridge'.

[bedwetter2]

Thanks for the sensible anwer Worthy. See, my reason for asking goes beyond any basic elasticty and " indications show"and takes into account that an 18 year old ( what's in it for me?) view, may well differ widely from that of a maturer 30 year old with a little life experience. How many for instance are in the can't work, won't work sector and how many vote for anythin g with the most promise of "benefits" attached to it's bullhorn? How many amongst the young ( or amongst any level) care about the actual running of the country as opposed to the personal wants? In another forum, a poster (name hidden for outrage reasons. ) claims he doesn't give a shiny one about Bolton as a club and business, only about match day and his entertainment) . The answers seem to be in the results, a rocky sort of 50-50, which doesn't really tell us anything much at all about anything. Sort of, " Michael Fish said"....Meanwhile, over in Parliament...

Evidence suggests that the younger people are the less they vote for personal gain and the more they vote socially for mutual benefit. Or at least that is how they perceive it. Whereas older people vote in their own self interests. It is why there is a perception that young people are more radically and socially engaged politically. And why the Tories have (until this election) generally protected pensioners as they know they will be more likely to vote Tory.

I think it is absolutely insulting to brand young people in this country as you have just done. They would easily retort that old buggers like you vote purely out of personal self interest and have no stake or interest in the future of the country as the whole.

No wonder the country is in such a mess when intelligent people like yourself write off entire generations in the way you are. The more people spout this nonsense the more it will motivate them to come out and express their views at the ballot box. Surely the views of 18 year olds are just as, if not even more pertinent, when making decisions for how the country is run than those who frankly won't be here to see it?

Wasn't it the great Sir Winston Churchill, no less, who said "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery".

and

" We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle".

Discuss.

[Bruce Rioja]

Left wing media? In this country?

Now I know you're a massive piss-taking wind-up merchant Hobes.

BBC

Guardian

Faily Mirror

There is a more or less equal distribution of Right/left, it is not the fault of those leaning to the right that they are the more popular/better subscribed is it?
And leaving the 'media' aside, hard Brexit seems to be the invented mantra of the Clegg's and Farron's of this world propped up by the Millar's and Blair's, the soft left, even the hard left have enough sense to keep quiet about it until they know what's going on.

The BBC are most definitely not part of the partisan media. You might note that a number of Labour campaigners felt the BBC were biased towards the Torys. It is an absolute nonsense to throw them in with openly partisan newspapers.

The only open partisan left leaning publication is the Mirror. The Guardian didn't even back Corbyn until the final day of the election campaign.

But even if you include the guardian and Mirror. For the right you have the Sun, Mail, Express and Torygraph. Plus sky.

That's a huge, chunk of right wing media, the Murdoch empire. All pointing in one direction.

You mean 'the BBC' that edited a film clip to suit the PC leftist agenda recently?

The BBC that has impartial programme audiences?

The BBC that know sooner or later a right leaning government will closely scrutinise it's funding?

Ah, right, carry on.

As for the Guardian, hard Brexit has been the mantra more or less since the referendum poll closed and every time an EU 'personality' pops their head above the parapet, it's the truth and what's going to happen.
Reading it every day I can state that as a fact.

You read too much right wing junk so cannot see what balanced media looks like.

See the apologies that Laura K woman on the BBC had to issue after going after Corbyn during the campaign. She's the main political correspondent on the BBC and was openly May over Corbyn. Doesn't make them biased by the way, just not left leaning. Audiences were drawn up not by the BBC but by polling companies. On reflection after the actual poll I don't think anyone could say the breakdown of views in the audience was skewed in any way.

As for editing film clips, the BBC removed a clip yesterday where a resident of the tower block accused local businesses and the council of deliberately starting the fire. The horrible leftist leaning organisation they are....oh.....ooops.

It never ceases to amaze me as to how bright people allow those with their own agendas to form their opinions for them.