Today I'm angry about.....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

[Prufrock]

I know Muslims who don't recognise that choice. They don't feel the need to choose. You can say "Islam demands it" but Christianity "demands" you don't handle pig skin. Is Tango not a Christian because he likes a bacon sandwich (toasty loaf)? Of course not.

[TANGODANCER]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Not quite sure I understand "nothing has happened" ? Christianity was founded by Jesus and his gospels spread far and wide. That's still hapening with each successive generation. Religion is based on faith and belief and it hasn't got a sell-by date.

[Prufrock]

So when you pray it's a religious act, yes?

[bedwetter2]

So when you pray it's a religious act, yes?

I'm really not sure why religion was brought into this discussion when it is quite clear that the 'Islamists' attacking the west using terrorist tactics are not interested in religion. They may justify their actions by reference to Islam but there have been too many pieces of evidence of drinking, whoring and drug taking by the perpetrators to take their protestations of faith seriously.

In fact I am fairly convinced that Sunni Wahabbism is a front for criminal and violent activities with no rationale beyond that.

[bedwetter2]

I know Muslims who don't recognise that choice. They don't feel the need to choose. You can say "Islam demands it" but Christianity "demands" you don't handle pig skin. Is Tango not a Christian because he likes a bacon sandwich (toasty loaf)? Of course not.

I agree with the long lost leopard. The two are mutually exclusive in the eyes of virtually all muslims. Their loyalty to their religion comes before any loyalty to the country they happen to infest.

[Prufrock]

Sometimes I envy the intellectual confidence that leads people to conclude they've figured it all out (imagine the self-assuredness required to honesty profess to know what "virtually all Muslims" believe) but then, with a shake of the head, I wonder how frustrating it must be when the rest of the world, particularly all those people whose job it is to deal with this, won't listen to you. To have the answer (and there is "an" answer) and not be heard. I imagine that's why Steve Bannon looks like he does.

You modern day Cassandras.

[Prufrock]

I know Muslims who don't recognise that choice. They don't feel the need to choose. You can say "Islam demands it" but Christianity "demands" you don't handle pig skin. Is Tango not a Christian because he likes a bacon sandwich (toasty loaf)? Of course not.

I agree with the long lost leopard. The two are mutually exclusive in the eyes of virtually all muslims. Their loyalty to their religion comes before any loyalty to the country they happen to infest.

This is wonderful internet. Imagine speaking for virtually all Muslims.

[Prufrock]

It's not the first swing-and-a-miss to be fair.

[TANGODANCER]

So when you pray it's a religious act, yes?

If you so desire to believe and wander off into what is or isn't a religious act/belief . My argument is far simpler than any debate. The very idea of people shouting "God is great" as they behead someone, drive a vehicle into a crowd or blow up women and children in the belief they are doing his will, or that what they do is a religious act or is in any way religious in the accepted sense is utterly beyond belief. That's it in a nutshell for me. You believe as you will.

[Prufrock]

It's a bit difficult to talk about whether religion is a factor in somebody doing something without "wandering off" into whether something is a religious act.

When somebody believes that killing somebody else (and themself) is part of god's plan it's clearly a religious act.

[TANGODANCER]

It's a bit difficult to talk about whether religion is a factor in somebody doing something without "wandering off" into whether something is a religious act. When somebody believes that killing somebody else (and themself) is part of god's plan it's clearly a religious act.

Really? Would you say God stating "Thous shalt not kill, turn the other cheek and Vengence is mine" , long before Jesus or Muhammed were born has exceptions for certain situations and religions, or are we back to that old "will of man" thing? What man believes is part of God's plan is of little relevance against what it really is as stated in Scripture. It's usually taught by earthlings with purposes not found in the Bible and other religious tomes and almost always involves earthly gain of some description.

[Montreal Wanderer]

It's a bit difficult to talk about whether religion is a factor in somebody doing something without "wandering off" into whether something is a religious act. When somebody believes that killing somebody else (and themself) is part of god's plan it's clearly a religious act.

Really? Would you say God stating "Thous shalt not kill, turn the other cheek and Vengence is mine" , long before Jesus or Muhammed were born has exceptions for certain situations and religions, or are we back to that old "will of man" thing? What man believes is part of God's plan is of little relevance against what it really is as stated in Scripture. It's usually taught by earthlings with purposes not found in the Bible and other religious tomes and almost always involves earthly gain of some description.

Not that I wish to get into this discussion but, Tango, in the interests of accuracy, I have a suspicion that 'turn the other cheek' was not stated by God long before Jesus was born. I believe it is attributed to Jesus.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I know Muslims who don't recognise that choice. They don't feel the need to choose. You can say "Islam demands it" but Christianity "demands" you don't handle pig skin. Is Tango not a Christian because he likes a bacon sandwich (toasty loaf)? Of course not.

I agree with the long lost leopard. The two are mutually exclusive in the eyes of virtually all muslims. Their loyalty to their religion comes before any loyalty to the country they happen to infest.

This is wonderful internet. Imagine speaking for virtually all Muslims.

Your cynicism doesn't do your intellect justice. There are many groups (that one doesn't necessarily belong to) that you can make statements about their beliefs and attitudes: I'll give you a few examples:

"Virtually all scientists think that astrology is a pile of pish"
"Virtually all Arsenal Supporters do not like Tottenham Hotspur"
"Virtually all Ku Klux Klan members are racist"
"Virtually all Momentum members would like Tom Watson replaced as Deputy Labour Leader"

[bedwetter2]

I know Muslims who don't recognise that choice. They don't feel the need to choose. You can say "Islam demands it" but Christianity "demands" you don't handle pig skin. Is Tango not a Christian because he likes a bacon sandwich (toasty loaf)? Of course not.

I agree with the long lost leopard. The two are mutually exclusive in the eyes of virtually all muslims. Their loyalty to their religion comes before any loyalty to the country they happen to infest.

This is wonderful internet. Imagine speaking for virtually all Muslims.

Oh, please don't take my word for it. Perhaps surveys regarding muslims attitudes to living in the UK, whilst the statistics may be flawed, may convince where others have failed, but I doubt it. The Channel 4 one and the BBC/Comres ones from 2015 both reveal that 93% of respondents stated that their religion was of great importance. 88% stated that they felt that the UK was their home. Well yes, factually correct but pointless. When put into the context of where the majority of muslims live in the UK, with something like 48% saying they had not strayed more than 15 miles from where they live and 20%+ never having entered a house of a non-muslim you can see that living only among their own people can influence the response to who felt at home in the UK.

Trevor Phillips seemed to believe that the survey results were sufficiently worrying to present a programme about the subject on Channel 4.

If you haven't already, Mr Sarcasm, I would recommend you reading "The Strange Death of Europe" by Douglas Murray. A lot of facts which are hard to gainsay and opinion does not intrude that much.

Toodle-pip

[Hoboh]

I know Muslims who don't recognise that choice. They don't feel the need to choose. You can say "Islam demands it" but Christianity "demands" you don't handle pig skin. Is Tango not a Christian because he likes a bacon sandwich (toasty loaf)? Of course not.

I agree with the long lost leopard. The two are mutually exclusive in the eyes of virtually all muslims. Their loyalty to their religion comes before any loyalty to the country they happen to infest.

This is wonderful internet. Imagine speaking for virtually all Muslims.

Most Muslims are followers or forced to follow in my experience, even quite a few of the 'hip' youth generation toe the line at a certain point or risk the wrath of the community.

Oh and by the way welcome back Spots.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Toodle-pip

Toodle-pip!
By Jove, old bean, how very splendid, what what.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

Just a point of order here....I disagree with your synopsis generally, however, being British by definition does not require "loyalty to Britain".

Man born in England to white English parents wins the lottery..."right I'm off to Barbados to live, get me out of this stinking horrible country". He's still British. But not "loyal". However, you may want to define that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Oh and by the way welcome back Spots.

Cheers, you grumpy old b'stard.

[bedwetter2]

Toodle-pip

Toodle-pip!
By Jove, old bean, how very splendid, what what.

Indeed.
Welcome back Spotty by the way. It's good to know that you are back to improve the balance of discussion.