creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

[Prufrock]

Few things better in life than a Virat Kohli golden duck.

Oh Jimmy Jimmy.

[Worthy4England]

COYWM.

[Prufrock]

Not just ours with shit for brains

[Worthy4England]

Not just ours with shit for brains

T20 run, that one. They need to be playing more FC....

[Prufrock]

Pant playing like that as well. Imagine if he was English coming in mid collapse and batting like that. Lucky lucky bastard.

Oh Sibley ffs.

[Prufrock]

Two extremes of test cricket there.

An hour or so of exceptional test match cricket, battle between bat and ball.

Then, 2.30 in August, no rain, modern ground with floodlights. Off for bad light.

That needs sorting somehow.

[Worthy4England]

I think the problem is balls.

[Prufrock]

I know it's started raining now but there were 20 mins lost, and it happens sometimes without.

I think you might be right Worthy, how are they getting on with these pink ones?!

[Worthy4England]

I think whilst there is still the notion that Red, White and Pink all react differently (and given the debate about how swing happens, that hasn't got much further than shiny side / rough side, despite reverse swing), it would seem that there isn't a decent conclusion outside of global warming...

[Prufrock]

Back for 3 minutes and off again.

[Prufrock]

Aaaaamd again. 3 whole balls this time.

[BWFC_Insane]

Had enough of Sibley too. Top order seem to have got overfocused with batting time. I understand why it happened because we were awful, but you have to score too.

Yeah Tufnell made a point yesterday that nailed it for me. He can bat for 1 and a half sessions and score 20 and doesn’t have any other gears to ever kick on. He’s never going to strike fear into opponents as he isn’t going to change a game.

It also takes a lot of skill, luck and ability to survive for 150 balls in a test match, and you won’t do it that often. If a player does so, you want them to be making substantial contributions rather than just a 50.

Sibley would be ok in a side with a decent middle order. But in this side as you say surviving 100 odd balls for few runs is just not going to help as middle order collapses.

[Worthy4England]

Well at least all this one day stuff is improving our fielding....

[TANGODANCER]

When all else fails, unleash our secret weapon....rain! Never fails.

[BWFC_Insane]

For all we want to criticise the ECB I question how many of these players (batsmen) want to be great test players and want to do the things necessary to be that. My view is they don’t really have the necessary desire.

[Worthy4England]

For all we want to criticise the ECB I question how many of these players (batsmen) want to be great test players and want to do the things necessary to be that. My view is they don’t really have the necessary desire.

At a reported £700,000 for a central test contract, then someone isn't getting their appraisals right. But all the money in the world won't solve a talent shortage. Desire, like in football is that indefinable thing that often gets reached for as if it's an explanation, but I've never seen measures of it beyond winners clearly have it and losers clearly don't.

But I'm not convinced it's a larger determinant than technique and for me at the moment we've either got the wrong technicians, or the best technicians in the country who just don't have enough of it. I don't see a huge bench of "Why's Fred not in the team", because we've tried most of them. The ECB creates the development and coaching structures, if this is what they're producing, then it's been wrong a while and needs changing, because it's not producing the right calibre.

[BWFC_Insane]

For all we want to criticise the ECB I question how many of these players (batsmen) want to be great test players and want to do the things necessary to be that. My view is they don’t really have the necessary desire.

At a reported £700,000 for a central test contract, then someone isn't getting their appraisals right. But all the money in the world won't solve a talent shortage. Desire, like in football is that indefinable thing that often gets reached for as if it's an explanation, but I've never seen measures of it beyond winners clearly have it and losers clearly don't.

But I'm not convinced it's a larger determinant than technique and for me at the moment we've either got the wrong technicians, or the best technicians in the country who just don't have enough of it. I don't see a huge bench of "Why's Fred not in the team", because we've tried most of them. The ECB creates the development and coaching structures, if this is what they're producing, then it's been wrong a while and needs changing, because it's not producing the right calibre.

See I don’t think it’s not something you can see or measure. You take Anderson as an example of a player who didn’t really have a natural ready made test game but has grafted his way into the mould. You can see for all his issues that Buttler really wants to make it. Not sure I see that in many of the other batsmen. Bairstow for me looks like he doesn’t really have that much interest in the format anymore. Is there real desire to be test level cricketers? It’s a hard slog and natural ability is a small bit compared to the mental and physical effort required to make it.

I don’t think we do have a lot of test talent but some of these could make test players with right application. But do they see white ball money as their backup and way o out of it.

[Worthy4England]

For all we want to criticise the ECB I question how many of these players (batsmen) want to be great test players and want to do the things necessary to be that. My view is they don’t really have the necessary desire.

At a reported £700,000 for a central test contract, then someone isn't getting their appraisals right. But all the money in the world won't solve a talent shortage. Desire, like in football is that indefinable thing that often gets reached for as if it's an explanation, but I've never seen measures of it beyond winners clearly have it and losers clearly don't.

But I'm not convinced it's a larger determinant than technique and for me at the moment we've either got the wrong technicians, or the best technicians in the country who just don't have enough of it. I don't see a huge bench of "Why's Fred not in the team", because we've tried most of them. The ECB creates the development and coaching structures, if this is what they're producing, then it's been wrong a while and needs changing, because it's not producing the right calibre.

See I don’t think it’s not something you can see or measure. You take Anderson as an example of a player who didn’t really have a natural ready made test game but has grafted his way into the mould. You can see for all his issues that Buttler really wants to make it. Not sure I see that in many of the other batsmen. Bairstow for me looks like he doesn’t really have that much interest in the format anymore. Is there real desire to be test level cricketers? It’s a hard slog and natural ability is a small bit compared to the mental and physical effort required to make it.

I don’t think we do have a lot of test talent but some of these could make test players with right application. But do they see white ball money as their backup and way o out of it.

Ok - how are you measuring it then? Other than Anderson clearly world class = has desire. What "graft" has he done, that if other people applied it, could bridge the gap (bearing in mind we were talking about the batting.) I don't doubt he's grafted at all btw. But when you say he's not had a natural ready made test game, you don't get to be the leading world pace bowler in terms of wickets without having some advantages other than graft - you or I could train every day for 100 years and still not make it.

[BWFC_Insane]

For all we want to criticise the ECB I question how many of these players (batsmen) want to be great test players and want to do the things necessary to be that. My view is they don’t really have the necessary desire.

At a reported £700,000 for a central test contract, then someone isn't getting their appraisals right. But all the money in the world won't solve a talent shortage. Desire, like in football is that indefinable thing that often gets reached for as if it's an explanation, but I've never seen measures of it beyond winners clearly have it and losers clearly don't.

But I'm not convinced it's a larger determinant than technique and for me at the moment we've either got the wrong technicians, or the best technicians in the country who just don't have enough of it. I don't see a huge bench of "Why's Fred not in the team", because we've tried most of them. The ECB creates the development and coaching structures, if this is what they're producing, then it's been wrong a while and needs changing, because it's not producing the right calibre.

See I don’t think it’s not something you can see or measure. You take Anderson as an example of a player who didn’t really have a natural ready made test game but has grafted his way into the mould. You can see for all his issues that Buttler really wants to make it. Not sure I see that in many of the other batsmen. Bairstow for me looks like he doesn’t really have that much interest in the format anymore. Is there real desire to be test level cricketers? It’s a hard slog and natural ability is a small bit compared to the mental and physical effort required to make it.

I don’t think we do have a lot of test talent but some of these could make test players with right application. But do they see white ball money as their backup and way o out of it.

Ok - how are you measuring it then? Other than Anderson clearly world class = has desire. What "graft" has he done, that if other people applied it, could bridge the gap (bearing in mind we were talking about the batting.) I don't doubt he's grafted at all btw. But when you say he's not had a natural ready made test game, you don't get to be the leading world pace bowler in terms of wickets without having some advantages other than graft - you or I could train every day for 100 years and still not make it.

Jimmy wasn’t very good when he started. His bowling completely changed over time. He learned to swing it both ways and control it. But he didn’t rock up in his first test doing that. IIRC he was seen as more of a one day specialist at least initially. But he had a hard start. And has completely changed his game over the years.

Some players do just rock up and are test quality. But many don’t and have to work incredibly hard to develop their games. This lot need to try the latter route.

[Worthy4England]

I agree that Jimmy wasn't anywhere like a test player and he's done all the things you suggest. What I asked was "what is it?" and "how is it measured"....