The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
13
41%
Conservatives
12
38%
Liberal Democrats
2
6%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
9%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:18 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:25 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:58 am
Hoboh wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:34 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:04 pm
So we head to deep recession with public finances completely out of control, sky high inflation and rising interest rates.

If anyone utters there words ‘the Tories are more economically responsible’ then we should be referring them to prevent for deradicalisation.

Tory governments spend more, way way more of our money. Fact. They deliver less.

We need rid of them and the nonsense myth that they’re anything other than absolute corrupt disasters.
Mate they all are.
Just imagine if Corbyn had been elected, all our gas would be coming from Putin and we'd probably lend him a few typhoons and missile systems to use in Ukraine, Diane would be telling everyone they are billionaires and Lammy would have every white person drop to the knee in the presence of a person of colour.
Mate they all are what? Tory governments have spent on average huge amounts more of our money than Labour governments.

The current lot have spent more than all other governments in history combined. In 12 years.

‘Mate they all are’ doesn’t cover anything it doesn’t explain anything. It’s like a twitter bot with a pre determined line rolled out to try and somehow defend the absolute indefensible.
Okay I'll clarify:

THERE ARE NO POLITICAL PARTIES OR POLITICIANS WHO GIVE A MONKEYS ABOUT JOE PUBLIC. THEY ARE INTERESTED ONLY AT ELECTION TIMES WITH VAGUE PROMISES TO MAINTAIN THEIR SALARY AND EXPENSES.

Clear enough?
Labour under Bliar and Brown nose had the chance to take utilities back into public ownership but instead set off down the route of even more private ownership in the form of PFI. The limp Dems still cannot decide if cannabis should be legal and other 'liberal' things I'd care not to mention.
Nah. Sorry. That’s just an excuse. There are loads of politicians in all parties who care about the fate of the country.

It’s just we’ve backed the wrong ones. Time to correct the error. It’s not going to be a quick fix either.

But this lot have their troughs in the snout whilst they laugh at us. It’s not even a joke. And they’ve taken the economy to a point no other government has come close to.

And I’m not a conservative but Cameron cared. May cared. There are plenty more who I might disagree with but they cared and tried to do the right thing. I think I’d even possibly put Sunak in the bracket of having a plan he believes in. Tax profits. Reward investment. He at least shows he knows what’s going on. He’s also sadly had to cow tow to the absolutely seemingly vile beyond all belief Tory members and spout a load of unadulterated nonsense on order to simply have any chance of winning. Which shows us how rotten to the core that party is.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:48 am

Camoron, May, who the hell are you trying to kid?
Call me Dave did the big fat sum of zero for the country, alongside May day they got rid of coppers and allowed crime to soar for starters.
Ahh I see now they were both bedwetting Europhiles who wanted Nanny EU to run the show so just up your street.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 am

Talking of Europhiles. I see Truss is saying folk who are pointing out the anomaly of huge CEO salaries and share dividends when thousands could die this winter, are just "bashing business". Tax cuts are the answer apparently. This will,I'm sure, come as a relief to pensioners, those on benefits etc
"Get your feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t. You're not on a feckin punt now you know"

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:51 am

Hoboh wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:48 am
Camoron, May, who the hell are you trying to kid?
Call me Dave did the big fat sum of zero for the country, alongside May day they got rid of coppers and allowed crime to soar for starters.
Ahh I see now they were both bedwetting Europhiles who wanted Nanny EU to run the show so just up your street.
Brexit has happened. They’ve spent two years trying to find a benefit. Meanwhile they’ve spent insane amounts of money, left record amounts of debt and put us in an inflationary spiral.

So forgive me for thinking that the crisis we are in is a bit more important than your nonsense and frankly moronically stupid identity politics. I’d be embarrassed to even try and post such drivel given how destructive it’s been.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:36 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:51 am
Hoboh wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:48 am
Camoron, May, who the hell are you trying to kid?
Call me Dave did the big fat sum of zero for the country, alongside May day they got rid of coppers and allowed crime to soar for starters.
Ahh I see now they were both bedwetting Europhiles who wanted Nanny EU to run the show so just up your street.
Brexit has happened. They’ve spent two years trying to find a benefit. Meanwhile they’ve spent insane amounts of money, left record amounts of debt and put us in an inflationary spiral.

So forgive me for thinking that the crisis we are in is a bit more important than your nonsense and frankly moronically stupid identity politics. I’d be embarrassed to even try and post such drivel given how destructive it’s been.
The difference between you and I is simple, I ain't a dyed in the wool socialist with a fake veneer of empathy for everyone else until it lands on the doorstep.
You claim the conservatives have been destructive, I agree to an extent, they have but so was labour. Blair's fake war, PFI, flogging off the gold, tea and cakes with bloody communist trade union leaders, rubbish in the streets, the dead unable to be buried, all under labour and the nutjobs actually tried to inflict Corbyn and Abbott on us.
Just who should be ashamed to type comments Mr goody two shoes?
Oh I forgot to add the globalisation you seem so found of is the biggest detriment ever to ordinary people, the global companies and there bosses are the biggest p*ss takers going and before yo get round to the current labour party they cannot even define tha difference between male and female.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:40 pm

I really don't quite get the globalisation narrative as it's sorta been around for ever, but I'm not at all sure what the current gripes are. Powerful man (typically) raised armies full of serfs. If they won, they took the spoils. What specifically are you thinking we need to do? Stop trading across borders and go back to subsistence farming?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:58 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:40 pm
I really don't quite get the globalisation narrative as it's sorta been around for ever, but I'm not at all sure what the current gripes are. Powerful man (typically) raised armies full of serfs. If they won, they took the spoils. What specifically are you thinking we need to do? Stop trading across borders and go back to subsistence farming?
Well stopping reliance upon other countries would be a start. So called developing other nations at the expense of jobs and companies in the UK, do we benefit? No only the few, ear goods so much cheaper or is it maximising profit for the few? Not hard to fathom.
The whole financial and monetary system world wide suits no one except the few, the ridiculous debt held by the few institutions is meaningless except on paper, everywhere needs the reset button pushed.
It's getting so bad even I'm becoming a little less sceptical about the WEF and the geriatric German and his mates.
Revolution and unrest will follow in the not too distant future unless we look after our own interests for the whole population not just the few.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:07 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:58 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:40 pm
I really don't quite get the globalisation narrative as it's sorta been around for ever, but I'm not at all sure what the current gripes are. Powerful man (typically) raised armies full of serfs. If they won, they took the spoils. What specifically are you thinking we need to do? Stop trading across borders and go back to subsistence farming?
Well stopping reliance upon other countries would be a start. So called developing other nations at the expense of jobs and companies in the UK, do we benefit? No only the few, ear goods so much cheaper or is it maximising profit for the few? Not hard to fathom.
The whole financial and monetary system world wide suits no one except the few, the ridiculous debt held by the few institutions is meaningless except on paper, everywhere needs the reset button pushed.
It's getting so bad even I'm becoming a little less sceptical about the WEF and the geriatric German and his mates.
Revolution and unrest will follow in the not too distant future unless we look after our own interests for the whole population not just the few.
Gotcha Hobes, so live in a self sufficient cave. I do get and agree with stuff like energy supply.

But yes we benefit from developing other countries. I work in "global land" the differential between cost here v cost there is eye-watering. We can onshore lots. Some of your consumer prices might go up 80% comparatively. In relation to your BigCo profit sentiment, they won't take the hit, they'll pass it on.

Agree entirely on monetary system. Not working for us. Labour have it wrong here. It's not people on 80k or whatever - the fat cats - that are the problem. It's businesses. Reducing Corp tax to 19% (Truss policy) will only exacerbate this. We do need to stop bending over on "big business"

Ohh revolution and unrest...you fcking leftie.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:28 pm

Forgive me for pointing out that you said global companies won't take a hit then stating you'd raise tax on them.
All the stuff about global companies is a US import, an import from a world that the money men really control the government and fund Presidents, we are slowly heading in that direction, politics are becoming a cesspit either money men or the unions who seem to have labour stiched up control things. I mean come on why is Rayner an elected unmovable deputy, it ain't brains that's for sure.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:54 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:36 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:51 am
Hoboh wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:48 am
Camoron, May, who the hell are you trying to kid?
Call me Dave did the big fat sum of zero for the country, alongside May day they got rid of coppers and allowed crime to soar for starters.
Ahh I see now they were both bedwetting Europhiles who wanted Nanny EU to run the show so just up your street.
Brexit has happened. They’ve spent two years trying to find a benefit. Meanwhile they’ve spent insane amounts of money, left record amounts of debt and put us in an inflationary spiral.

So forgive me for thinking that the crisis we are in is a bit more important than your nonsense and frankly moronically stupid identity politics. I’d be embarrassed to even try and post such drivel given how destructive it’s been.
The difference between you and I is simple, I ain't a dyed in the wool socialist with a fake veneer of empathy for everyone else until it lands on the doorstep.
You claim the conservatives have been destructive, I agree to an extent, they have but so was labour. Blair's fake war, PFI, flogging off the gold, tea and cakes with bloody communist trade union leaders, rubbish in the streets, the dead unable to be buried, all under labour and the nutjobs actually tried to inflict Corbyn and Abbott on us.
Just who should be ashamed to type comments Mr goody two shoes?
Oh I forgot to add the globalisation you seem so found of is the biggest detriment ever to ordinary people, the global companies and there bosses are the biggest p*ss takers going and before yo get round to the current labour party they cannot even define tha difference between male and female.
You are calling me a socialist yet saying I’m fond of globalisation. Make your mind up. Or are these just terms you chuck around as part of identity politics without knowing what they mean?

For the record I’m not and never have been a socialist.

Blair and new Labour were by no means perfect but you tell me one actual metric, just one that was worse under them than now? There simply isn’t one. The economy even in the financial crash was better. Borrowing was lower. Public services were better. The NHS infinitely better.

I certainly didn’t try and inflict Corbyn on anyone and wouldn’t wee on him if he was alight opposite me. But let’s be clear. The shambles we are in is down to the Tory party being infiltrated by brexiteers. They’ve enacted Brexit and run the country. And look where we are. I reckon even Abacus Abbott couldn’t have done this badly and that’s whilst she was shagging Jeremy.

Don’t give me the nonsense about parties trying to force extremist cranks on us. We’ve had Johnson and now bloody think Lizzy. It’s hardly even comparable. Corbyn was never going to win an election. Ever. Truss will do real and actual damage to the country.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:11 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:28 pm
Forgive me for pointing out that you said global companies won't take a hit then stating you'd raise tax on them.
All the stuff about global companies is a US import, an import from a world that the money men really control the government and fund Presidents, we are slowly heading in that direction, politics are becoming a cesspit either money men or the unions who seem to have labour stiched up control things. I mean come on why is Rayner an elected unmovable deputy, it ain't brains that's for sure.
Reasonable to point out Hobes, I should have properly said we need to make sure we get them for tax due (but nor do I think reducing that tax due to 19% helps us at all)...but we would struggle to do that in isolation because there are too many loopholes elsewhere, so it would require countries moving together.

You only need to hear Cruddas bleating about Johnson to see where the land lies. But that said, the control Maxwell/Mugdock have had isn't new and nothing to do with the US. Nor was the influence ERG has over the Tories from the back benches for many years. Farage had a major influence despite being unelected ever to UK parliament. Plenty of money men behind Brexit, you just don't call that out.

As for Unions and Labour, there's little secret about that association, you can see what you're getting. Personally I don't think it helps Labour at all...but for every Rayner there's a Dorries (who I don't see you bellyaching about) yet she's actually in power as a government minister, Rayner ain't.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:00 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:11 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:28 pm
Forgive me for pointing out that you said global companies won't take a hit then stating you'd raise tax on them.
All the stuff about global companies is a US import, an import from a world that the money men really control the government and fund Presidents, we are slowly heading in that direction, politics are becoming a cesspit either money men or the unions who seem to have labour stiched up control things. I mean come on why is Rayner an elected unmovable deputy, it ain't brains that's for sure.
Reasonable to point out Hobes, I should have properly said we need to make sure we get them for tax due (but nor do I think reducing that tax due to 19% helps us at all)...but we would struggle to do that in isolation because there are too many loopholes elsewhere, so it would require countries moving together.

You only need to hear Cruddas bleating about Johnson to see where the land lies. But that said, the control Maxwell/Mugdock have had isn't new and nothing to do with the US. Nor was the influence ERG has over the Tories from the back benches for many years. Farage had a major influence despite being unelected ever to UK parliament. Plenty of money men behind Brexit, you just don't call that out.

As for Unions and Labour, there's little secret about that association, you can see what you're getting. Personally I don't think it helps Labour at all...but for every Rayner there's a Dorries (who I don't see you bellyaching about) yet she's actually in power as a government minister, Rayner ain't.
I’ve come to the view that Rayner is actually ok. I’m not sure what the hate for her is but she’s not born into riches and is self made and generally seems to manage against the Eton mob quite well.

Sexism? Or just cos she sounds a bit rough? Not sure. Obviously she’s a bit of a hot head. But then when they aren’t they get labelled ‘boring’.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm

Dorries would be one of the first up against the wall, that help? :D

The money stuff has been going on a lot longer than Maxwell/Murdoch the US arms industry are manipulation experts for starters.
Thing is I really don't trust any of them and when people sprout the NHS was fantastically better under Blair whilst we are now suffering the consequences at GP's, PFI, peeing about throwing billions at Iraq, Afghanistan, well it goes to show how shallow some are mind I'm not excusing the money Johnson is chucking at Ukraine either.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:44 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm
Dorries would be one of the first up against the wall, that help? :D

The money stuff has been going on a lot longer than Maxwell/Murdoch the US arms industry are manipulation experts for starters.
Thing is I really don't trust any of them and when people sprout the NHS was fantastically better under Blair whilst we are now suffering the consequences at GP's, PFI, peeing about throwing billions at Iraq, Afghanistan, well it goes to show how shallow some are mind I'm not excusing the money Johnson is chucking at Ukraine either.
Yeah, that helps. :-)

My point was, that whilst there might be a new flag to march behind, called globalisation, it was ever thus. The control of the many, by the few.

They thrive on us folks arguing whether it was Tory or Labour who created "problem x", whilst ducking the main point that they're all shit. So the fight becomes about "we're less shit than them, so aren't we great" and nowt much changes is the system that's behind the story, and any who suggest it should are in bed with Trotsky.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:25 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:44 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm
Dorries would be one of the first up against the wall, that help? :D

The money stuff has been going on a lot longer than Maxwell/Murdoch the US arms industry are manipulation experts for starters.
Thing is I really don't trust any of them and when people sprout the NHS was fantastically better under Blair whilst we are now suffering the consequences at GP's, PFI, peeing about throwing billions at Iraq, Afghanistan, well it goes to show how shallow some are mind I'm not excusing the money Johnson is chucking at Ukraine either.
Yeah, that helps. :-)

My point was, that whilst there might be a new flag to march behind, called globalisation, it was ever thus. The control of the many, by the few.

They thrive on us folks arguing whether it was Tory or Labour who created "problem x", whilst ducking the main point that they're all shit. So the fight becomes about "we're less shit than them, so aren't we great" and nowt much changes is the system that's behind the story, and any who suggest it should are in bed with Trotsky.
Your right, us ordinary serfs are caught in the middle of idealists of far right/left and the elites/odd dictator, no simple answers except maybe to set up our own tribes but that never ends well either :D

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:14 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:08 pm
Dorries would be one of the first up against the wall, that help? :D

The money stuff has been going on a lot longer than Maxwell/Murdoch the US arms industry are manipulation experts for starters.
Thing is I really don't trust any of them and when people sprout the NHS was fantastically better under Blair whilst we are now suffering the consequences at GP's, PFI, peeing about throwing billions at Iraq, Afghanistan, well it goes to show how shallow some are mind I'm not excusing the money Johnson is chucking at Ukraine either.
We can measure how good the nhs was. We can also know how much money we spent.

Have you seen how much this government have spent in twelve years compared to Labours thirteen year term? Have you looked at nhs waiting lists, GP patient ratios, unoccupied hospital beds, ambulance wait times?

It’s not a vague guess or ‘just name some words’. The data and evidence is there. In the last twelve years the government have borrowed an insane, more than a trillion dollars. And public services are in the toilet. People can’t pay their bills. Businesses can’t pay their bills. Our exports are way down. Hurting business. And costs are going through the roof.

You can keep trying with all as bad as each other but Blair whilst by no means perfect has everything performing better than we’ve seen since. That’s not a debate. It’s not something you can counter claim. It’s just factual.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:48 pm

There are facts and facts...one is, that it's true, plenty of trusts are pouring cash out of the door to pay PFI loans (which came in under Major, rather than Blair, but probably proliferated under Blair). When you're lobbing 5-20% of your budget on debt repayments than yeah, that's going to have an impact

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:21 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:48 pm
There are facts and facts...one is, that it's true, plenty of trusts are pouring cash out of the door to pay PFI loans (which came in under Major, rather than Blair, but probably proliferated under Blair). When you're lobbing 5-20% of your budget on debt repayments than yeah, that's going to have an impact
Nobody disputes that PFIs were a terrible investment plan.

They will cost around £80bn in total. But given that’s not all Blair’s bill and given they did build new facilities you are looking at a shortfall of around £60Bn. It’s not good.

Nobody is suggesting that. But it also pales into insignificance compared to what is happening now.

The PFI scheme was also a Tory scheme that nobody bothered to check the forecasting on. A civil servant made an error and nobody checked the maths. True story.

Bad. But in the scale of what we see now…relatively minor.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:43 pm

And what exactly was Labour's plan other than continue lockdowns and throw money at more benefits? Who would be shelling out cash left right and centre to the likes of the railway workers? Who would be paying billions to sweeten the EU, yeah we are in a mess and would be no better under labour, well with the exception of the unionized mobs.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:00 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:43 pm
And what exactly was Labour's plan other than continue lockdowns and throw money at more benefits? Who would be shelling out cash left right and centre to the likes of the railway workers? Who would be paying billions to sweeten the EU, yeah we are in a mess and would be no better under labour, well with the exception of the unionized mobs.
Labour would force the energy cap to remain and the energy companies to take the hit. So they say. I’ve no idea if they can do that but it’s certainly better than the alternative.

The lockdowns point is more nonsense that Johnson liked to spew and obviously you’ve taken hook line and sinker…the fact is that each time we locked down too late which prolonged the lockdown length required and cost the taxpayer more, early interventions would have left us in a far better place. And each time Labour pointed this out Johnson said we’d not need a lockdown….and guess what…we did….

Labour also forced the windfall tax, an idea the Tories repeatedly said was socialist nonsense…before they had to introduce it…

I don’t know how much this Labour Party could actually do in power. I don’t know how far they could go.

What I do know is that more Tory governments are simply going to keep diverting money to the richest 5% at our expense. That’s all they’ve done for the last decade and a bit and indeed the last 50 years. And all Truss talks about is more of the same. More things that are about helping the wealthy at our expense.

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