The Politics Thread

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Aren't the losing lot in an election, just supposed to shut up and say nothing?

Be nice if they all shut up and got on with it. Silence is golden

Oh, so that's two more of you on Starmers 1984 route whilst holding a meeting of the pigs on the farm

I'm no fan of Starmer, but rather than call him names I'd rather he quietly got on with the job and I'll judge him on what he achieves/feck* up in a couple of years.

[Hoboh]

Aren't the losing lot in an election, just supposed to shut up and say nothing?

Be nice if they all shut up and got on with it. Silence is golden

Oh, so that's two more of you on Starmers 1984 route whilst holding a meeting of the pigs on the farm

I'm no fan of Starmer, but rather than call him names I'd rather he quietly got on with the job and I'll judge him on what he achieves/feck* up in a couple of years.

If you don't find something to laugh about, you'll simply cry at the mixed up antics of an in it's infancy government.

I would edge a bet that Starmer won't last above 2 years in his post, don't know what it is but I get the feeling, it will be all too much for him and if labour ain't delivering, they will (scoff) be looking towards getting re-elected.

Despite some thinking I'm an out and out, died in the wool, blue Tory, I ain't, I honestly have little sympathy with all almost all politicians, and that includes Nigel Farage. He in particular, needs to come out with more than just stopping the invasion.

My honest opinion is, it is not our elected parliament that governs and runs this country, it's in the hands of the make up their own version of law and justice legal leeches and many, well outdated agreements, resolutions, and dictats we signed up for years ago, sometimes, stupidly.

Where's Ed?

[Worthy4England]

Big business and vested interests run us. You rarely mention them. But maybe we go for powerful dictator, which is great when you agree with everything they want to do, but a bit of a bugger when you don't, before they can declare they didn't give a shit about you anyhow. At that point you hope there's enough laws there that can be acted upon, to protect you and your rights and the people are still able to rely on the support of the military.

[BWFC_Insane]

Big business and vested interests run us. You rarely mention them. But maybe we go for powerful dictator, which is great when you agree with everything they want to do, but a bit of a bugger when you don't, before they can declare they didn't give a shit about you anyhow. At that point you hope there's enough laws there that can be acted upon, to protect you and your rights and the people are still able to rely on the support of the military.

Powerful dictators only get there off the back of big business and vested interests. They are the vested interests…

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Notice Trump wants Netanyahu to finish the job in Gaza and remove every last trace of Palestinians from Gaza. Presumably the Trump bulldozers then move in to build Trump Gaza Casino & Resorts LLC. The 2020s are fecking grim

[BWFC_Insane]

Notice Trump wants Netanyahu to finish the job in Gaza and remove every last trace of Palestinians from Gaza. Presumably the Trump bulldozers then move in to build Trump Gaza Casino & Resorts LLC. The 2020s are fecking grim

+1. The world has slipped into a terrible place and I worry that the only way out now is a series of hitherto unimaginably awful events, rather similar to Europe in the 1930’s

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Notice Trump wants Netanyahu to finish the job in Gaza and remove every last trace of Palestinians from Gaza. Presumably the Trump bulldozers then move in to build Trump Gaza Casino & Resorts LLC. The 2020s are fecking grim

+1. The world has slipped into a terrible place and I worry that the only way out now is a series of hitherto unimaginably awful events, rather similar to Europe in the 1930’s

I can only hope the world joins together to sanction the feck out of Trump and America if Trump goes ahead. Its no better than Putin, so should be treated the same.

[BWFC_Insane]

Notice Trump wants Netanyahu to finish the job in Gaza and remove every last trace of Palestinians from Gaza. Presumably the Trump bulldozers then move in to build Trump Gaza Casino & Resorts LLC. The 2020s are fecking grim

+1. The world has slipped into a terrible place and I worry that the only way out now is a series of hitherto unimaginably awful events, rather similar to Europe in the 1930’s

I can only hope the world joins together to sanction the feck out of Trump and America if Trump goes ahead. Its no better than Putin, so should be treated the same.

It won’t because much the world has slipped into their own Trumpism - or are in danger of doing so.

Even in say Germany or France there isn’t the political capital spare to do anything much.

The thing that baffles me is that in the 1930’s one could understand the anger as people in Germany and Central Europe had suffered for two decades on a scale that was for the time pretty extreme. However whilst 2007 clearly did a lot of economic damage it’s not comparable in scale to then and at worst living standards have been flat. I can absolutely get some anger and dissent but one can’t help feel this is fuelled by sophisticated rogue states like Russia to destabilise the west.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

It won’t because much the world has slipped into their own Trumpism - or are in danger of doing so.

Even in say Germany or France there isn’t the political capital spare to do anything much.

The thing that baffles me is that in the 1930’s one could understand the anger as people in Germany and Central Europe had suffered for two decades on a scale that was for the time pretty extreme. However whilst 2007 clearly did a lot of economic damage it’s not comparable in scale to then and at worst living standards have been flat. I can absolutely get some anger and dissent but one can’t help feel this is fuelled by sophisticated rogue states like Russia to destabilise the west.

Oh, I know feck all will happen. It should.

Social media is behind much of it. Before it was a few blokes bitching in the pub, now they're all joined together in their own bubble echo chambers. Chuck in the likes of Russia and Murdoch manipulating, along with a dose of greed and here we are. It'll never be fixed as no politician or political party has the bollocks to face it down.

[BWFC_Insane]

It won’t because much the world has slipped into their own Trumpism - or are in danger of doing so.

Even in say Germany or France there isn’t the political capital spare to do anything much.

The thing that baffles me is that in the 1930’s one could understand the anger as people in Germany and Central Europe had suffered for two decades on a scale that was for the time pretty extreme. However whilst 2007 clearly did a lot of economic damage it’s not comparable in scale to then and at worst living standards have been flat. I can absolutely get some anger and dissent but one can’t help feel this is fuelled by sophisticated rogue states like Russia to destabilise the west.

Oh, I know feck all will happen. It should.

Social media is behind much of it. Before it was a few blokes bitching in the pub, now they're all joined together in their own bubble echo chambers. Chuck in the likes of Russia and Murdoch manipulating, along with a dose of greed and here we are. It'll never be fixed as no politician or political party has the bollocks to face it down.

Complex interplay of factors for sure.

Not sure I agree with the last part - I think across the world nobody really knows how to do that at this stage. Rather than not having the balls to do it. When the democratic norms are eroded so much that people simply don’t seem to notice or care any more the defence against rampant nationalist populism is not there. And nobody I think knows how to construct a new one in the ‘new world’ because it’s never been done successfully before outside of war.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

It won’t because much the world has slipped into their own Trumpism - or are in danger of doing so.

Even in say Germany or France there isn’t the political capital spare to do anything much.

The thing that baffles me is that in the 1930’s one could understand the anger as people in Germany and Central Europe had suffered for two decades on a scale that was for the time pretty extreme. However whilst 2007 clearly did a lot of economic damage it’s not comparable in scale to then and at worst living standards have been flat. I can absolutely get some anger and dissent but one can’t help feel this is fuelled by sophisticated rogue states like Russia to destabilise the west.

Oh, I know feck all will happen. It should.

Social media is behind much of it. Before it was a few blokes bitching in the pub, now they're all joined together in their own bubble echo chambers. Chuck in the likes of Russia and Murdoch manipulating, along with a dose of greed and here we are. It'll never be fixed as no politician or political party has the bollocks to face it down.

Complex interplay of factors for sure.

Not sure I agree with the last part - I think across the world nobody really knows how to do that at this stage. Rather than not having the balls to do it. When the democratic norms are eroded so much that people simply don’t seem to notice or care any more the defence against rampant nationalist populism is not there. And nobody I think knows how to construct a new one in the ‘new world’ because it’s never been done successfully before outside of war.

Politicians and political parties create policy based on what the major donors and populist media want. Look at the evidence...

Lets tax hedge funds the same as everyone else. Top Labour donor is hedge fund bloke and hey, look no change to tax.
Populist media - immigrants root of all problems and invading us. Hey look, Labour MPs want government to take harder line on immigration.

The list is almost endless and can be applied to all governments in my lifetime. It seems to get more blatant and worse with each new government.

[BWFC_Insane]

It won’t because much the world has slipped into their own Trumpism - or are in danger of doing so.

Even in say Germany or France there isn’t the political capital spare to do anything much.

The thing that baffles me is that in the 1930’s one could understand the anger as people in Germany and Central Europe had suffered for two decades on a scale that was for the time pretty extreme. However whilst 2007 clearly did a lot of economic damage it’s not comparable in scale to then and at worst living standards have been flat. I can absolutely get some anger and dissent but one can’t help feel this is fuelled by sophisticated rogue states like Russia to destabilise the west.

Oh, I know feck all will happen. It should.

Social media is behind much of it. Before it was a few blokes bitching in the pub, now they're all joined together in their own bubble echo chambers. Chuck in the likes of Russia and Murdoch manipulating, along with a dose of greed and here we are. It'll never be fixed as no politician or political party has the bollocks to face it down.

Complex interplay of factors for sure.

Not sure I agree with the last part - I think across the world nobody really knows how to do that at this stage. Rather than not having the balls to do it. When the democratic norms are eroded so much that people simply don’t seem to notice or care any more the defence against rampant nationalist populism is not there. And nobody I think knows how to construct a new one in the ‘new world’ because it’s never been done successfully before outside of war.

Politicians and political parties create policy based on what the major donors and populist media want. Look at the evidence...

Lets tax hedge funds the same as everyone else. Top Labour donor is hedge fund bloke and hey, look no change to tax.
Populist media - immigrants root of all problems and invading us. Hey look, Labour MPs want government to take harder line on immigration.

The list is almost endless and can be applied to all governments in my lifetime. It seems to get more blatant and worse with each new government.

But the counter argument is that if you are trying to protect democratic norms in this new world you need some financial backing - otherwise you are swamped.

I also think that much of the criticism of any party who tries to take a balanced approach comes from two extremes who are both absolute batshit crazy. Real world is that there are no real options to break the big corporations and their shareholders. Not beyond huge global solutions. No government can do it. So the plain hard truth is we are living in an imperfect system and it’s about tweaking it to make it as palatable as possible.

That of course is not a good message to take to populists who are growing off that sort of politics. But it is reality. Trump didn’t sort it in his last four years. And won’t this time either. Because it isn’t something he wants to sort. Rich will do well. Rest will be stuffed. But the con is strong.

Equally the left wang on about wealth taxes - they should look across Europe to see what has happened in places where they were imposed. Raised no money. And in many of those places far right parties either gained control or are close to doing so.

I don’t think anyone knows how to effectively counter what is happening. The US Dems put the polar opposite candidate up against Trump. The full throated opposite if you like that many clamour for. No appeasement, just plain opposite. And it was a disaster. And now they are subservient along with their media. They’ve given up. Given up their democratic norms and 100 years of sensible (more or less) governance for what? Biden produced one of the most successful economic recoveries in the world. He worked a miracle. Something that in the 90’s would have been described as one of the best pieces of governance ever. He’d have been carried on shoulders. I think when people say there is an easy answer to this it’s a misread of the situation.

Centre left and centre right politicians right across the world are struggling to find answers and let’s be honest have since 2016. They aren’t all bad or even average. I just think even if they are brilliant the answers are not yet obvious.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

The status quo is no longer sustainable. Change is happening and it comes down to which change is going to win. Labour mistakenly think the status quo can win out. It can't because most people think change is necessary, but can't agree what that needs to look like.

[Worthy4England]

The status quo is no longer sustainable. Change is happening and it comes down to which change is going to win. Labour mistakenly think the status quo can win out. It can't because most people think change is necessary, but can't agree what that needs to look like.

Agree mate. Tinkering round the edges which both Labour and Conservatives have historically done - someone gets a bit more tax, someone gets a bit less, is not going to change the broad dynamics albeit people are historically factionalised. Whilst we all argue around DEI, Brexit, Right and Left, Immigration, Judiciary and looking for answers in that, the very rich carry on avoiding taxation and making ever increasing amounts of dosh, whilst workers wages are comparatively stagnant any prices continue to rise,

What people need to twig onto, is the real "elites" aren't generally MP's and the like, they're just another target for people to go at, whose room to change is limited.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Agree mate. Tinkering round the edges which both Labour and Conservatives have historically done - someone gets a bit more tax, someone gets a bit less, is not going to change the broad dynamics albeit people are historically factionalised. Whilst we all argue around DEI, Brexit, Right and Left, Immigration, Judiciary and looking for answers in that, the very rich carry on avoiding taxation and making ever increasing amounts of dosh, whilst workers wages are comparatively stagnant any prices continue to rise,

What people need to twig onto, is the real "elites" aren't generally MP's and the like, they're just another target for people to go at, whose room to change is limited.

I'd like to see corporate and non-resident donations to political stuff banned, leaving just personal donations capped at something sensible. If that means they can't afford to try and manipulate via social media campaigns then all the better. I'd also be banning handing out honours and other similar stuff as another way of paying back favours. Make news programs/media of any sort stick an opinion banner on screen for anything that isn't plain reporting of news/facts. Too many hard of thinking can't tell the difference.

Much more needed, but that might to start putting some of the trust back into things.

[BWFC_Insane]

The status quo is no longer sustainable. Change is happening and it comes down to which change is going to win. Labour mistakenly think the status quo can win out. It can't because most people think change is necessary, but can't agree what that needs to look like.

Change isn’t coming though. That’s the point. The far right only offer an acceleration of the current position. They might dress it up as change but the reality is it’s more wealth for the elites and less for everyone else. Achieved through divide and rule. That’s what’s on offer.

Exposing that probably is where to start but that hasn’t worked for anyone really. It still comes down to the fact that nobody has a workable alternative to capitalism that doesn’t rely on complete global cooperation. And the reality is we have to work in the bounds of that.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Point of order.

You can't accelerate to your current position. You're already there

[Hoboh]

The status quo is no longer sustainable. Change is happening and it comes down to which change is going to win. Labour mistakenly think the status quo can win out. It can't because most people think change is necessary, but can't agree what that needs to look like.

Change isn’t coming though. That’s the point. The far right only offer an acceleration of the current position. They might dress it up as change but the reality is it’s more wealth for the elites and less for everyone else. Achieved through divide and rule. That’s what’s on offer.

Exposing that probably is where to start but that hasn’t worked for anyone really. It still comes down to the fact that nobody has a workable alternative to capitalism that doesn’t rely on complete global cooperation. And the reality is we have to work in the bounds of that.

It might come as a surprise, well shock to some I guess, that I agree with an awful lot of points being posted. The problem as I see it is the capitulation of areas of business to private enterprise. Energy, water, etc. should always have remained in public ownership, and before anyone bangs on about selling off the stock, one only has to look at the major problems the Unions caused.

You see, no solution is easy, it is way too simple to point fingers at the extreme rich and think it's only them folk are against.

I know there is a lot of people, and some are going to argue against this, but it's true, that think anyone earning a six or near that figure sum, live in a half million quid house, latest, with it car, a couple of overseas, posh, holidays a year simply don't pay or contribute enough to society, this is something you trace from the bottom upwards. That is the real problem, people's outlook.

There is a minefield of other things, which I won't go into yet for time reasons.

And lastly, don't forget the thing that will cause as much misery as nuclear war, AI.

[BWFC_Insane]

The status quo is no longer sustainable. Change is happening and it comes down to which change is going to win. Labour mistakenly think the status quo can win out. It can't because most people think change is necessary, but can't agree what that needs to look like.

Change isn’t coming though. That’s the point. The far right only offer an acceleration of the current position. They might dress it up as change but the reality is it’s more wealth for the elites and less for everyone else. Achieved through divide and rule. That’s what’s on offer.

Exposing that probably is where to start but that hasn’t worked for anyone really. It still comes down to the fact that nobody has a workable alternative to capitalism that doesn’t rely on complete global cooperation. And the reality is we have to work in the bounds of that.

It might come as a surprise, well shock to some I guess, that I agree with an awful lot of points being posted. The problem as I see it is the capitulation of areas of business to private enterprise. Energy, water, etc. should always have remained in public ownership, and before anyone bangs on about selling off the stock, one only has to look at the major problems the Unions caused.

You see, no solution is easy, it is way too simple to point fingers at the extreme rich and think it's only them folk are against.

I know there is a lot of people, and some are going to argue against this, but it's true, that think anyone earning a six or near that figure sum, live in a half million quid house, latest, with it car, a couple of overseas, posh, holidays a year simply don't pay or contribute enough to society, this is something you trace from the bottom upwards. That is the real problem, people's outlook.

There is a minefield of other things, which I won't go into yet for time reasons.

And lastly, don't forget the thing that will cause as much misery as nuclear war, AI.

Thing is I don’t know many people who think those living in a half a million house with a nice car don’t pay enough tax. They pay the bulk. They aren’t massively wealthy.

The problem is the wealth bleeds to the very richest. Many of whom aren’t even in the UK. Shareholders of the corporations that pump sewage in our water for example.
And nobody has the answers for tackling this.

On AI the complete ignorance with which all politicians share relating to it and its dangers is a constant depression of mine.

[Worthy4England]

The status quo is no longer sustainable. Change is happening and it comes down to which change is going to win. Labour mistakenly think the status quo can win out. It can't because most people think change is necessary, but can't agree what that needs to look like.

Change isn’t coming though. That’s the point. The far right only offer an acceleration of the current position. They might dress it up as change but the reality is it’s more wealth for the elites and less for everyone else. Achieved through divide and rule. That’s what’s on offer.

Exposing that probably is where to start but that hasn’t worked for anyone really. It still comes down to the fact that nobody has a workable alternative to capitalism that doesn’t rely on complete global cooperation. And the reality is we have to work in the bounds of that.

It might come as a surprise, well shock to some I guess, that I agree with an awful lot of points being posted. The problem as I see it is the capitulation of areas of business to private enterprise. Energy, water, etc. should always have remained in public ownership, and before anyone bangs on about selling off the stock, one only has to look at the major problems the Unions caused.

You see, no solution is easy, it is way too simple to point fingers at the extreme rich and think it's only them folk are against.

I know there is a lot of people, and some are going to argue against this, but it's true, that think anyone earning a six or near that figure sum, live in a half million quid house, latest, with it car, a couple of overseas, posh, holidays a year simply don't pay or contribute enough to society, this is something you trace from the bottom upwards. That is the real problem, people's outlook.

There is a minefield of other things, which I won't go into yet for time reasons.

And lastly, don't forget the thing that will cause as much misery as nuclear war, AI.

I have questions!

The unions died, pretty much as a real force, 40 years ago. How can you keep a straight face and blame them for what's going on in 2024? I think we're agreed that most, if not all privatisations aren't working for anyone but maybe shareholders and the businesses that run them. Who could've possibly guessed?

For me the equations are pretty simple at the top level.

1) GDP broadly stagnant - sometimes a little up, sometimes a little down, this is put forwards as "lazy Brits" - Yet somehow, profits keep increasing....funny that innit?
2) Wages broadly flat over a large period of time, yet prices keep shooting up - this isn't wage inflation.
3) Prices outstripping inflation, regularly.
4) Tax payer funded investments in both privatised and already public businesses (such as Oil and Gas) increasing over time.
5) Tax breaks/Zero Tax for businesses and super wealthy over an extended period

Why the feck are we looking at the workforce and blaming them? We are literally bankrolling the real elites. And no one seems too bothered.

We gave £80 billion to oil and gas in the period 2015-2021. BP and Shell made £60 billion in profit in just one year. The tax payers are literally paying their profits.

We don't need to swap capitalism for a kibbutz (although that's maybe appealing at times), we do need to redress the expectations of private enterprise. Apart from the fact that we can't, and if we try to, they're happy to crash our economy, because they own us.

I think most right and left folks are in broadly the same place, we just need to agree who the real enemy is, because it's not the sideshow's that we keep coming up with.