SUN Editor : "We Were Right About Hillsborough"

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

The point is that a lot of '80s 'away' fans did drink quite a lot and arrive to the ground late, and this was certainly with the case with the Liverpool fans on that day.

Liverpool's away support in the eighties was an unusually unfortunate mob.

Football fans drink today. Football fans arrive late today. We don't see scores of people dying in stadia week in and week out. This is because lessons have been learned, stadia have changed, and crowd management is light-years above what it was at Hillsborough. Police are aware of what is going on, and games are regularly delayed due to crowd congestion.

Police at Hillsborough were not aware of what was going on, and did nothing to alleviate the obvious 'congestion' (and to call it congestion is sanitising it immensely) in the central pen. To claim that fans had no part in it is impossible, because without fans there would be no problems, but to claim that Liverpool fans were 'to blame' for this is disrespectful, and I would say inaccurate.

Nobody disputes the fact that the situation was policed very badly and that lessons were learnt. But any account that doesn't deal in shared 'blame' between the authorities and the fans themselves is unrealistic. The fact is, it did happen to that particular set of Liverpool fans, and I do not accept that it would have happened to any other set of fans in the land, had they been playing Notts Forest and been allocated the same end.

[blurred]

Nobody disputes the fact that the situation was policed very badly and that lessons were learnt. But any account that doesn't deal in shared 'blame' between the authorities and the fans themselves is unrealistic. The fact is, it did happen to that particular set of Liverpool fans, and I do not accept that it would have happened to any other set of fans in the land, had they been playing Notts Forest and been allocated the same end.

I think that you have to differentiate between 'blame' and 'causal factor'. The fact that Liverpool fans were 'wrongly' allocated the smaller Leppings Lane End as opposed to the Kop end is a causal factor, but the 'fault' of that is the people who made that decision. The fact that Liverpool fans arrived late (as all fans did at the time) is a causal factor, but that it was not dealt with by the authorities is where the blame lies, surely? Policemen not realising the massive error of too many fans in a certain area is a fault, surely? Not acting quickly enough to relieve the crush is where the blame lies?

Can you 'blame' people for normal behaviour? It's like saying that a large amount of passengers were to blame for their deaths at Kings Cross in the fire, despite the fact that it was the end of the rush hour and perfectly normal for them to be there at that time... is that what resulted in all those people losing their lives? Or was it the fact that the escalators were wooden or that fire fighting equipment in the station wasn't up to scratch or what?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Nobody disputes the fact that the situation was policed very badly and that lessons were learnt. But any account that doesn't deal in shared 'blame' between the authorities and the fans themselves is unrealistic. The fact is, it did happen to that particular set of Liverpool fans, and I do not accept that it would have happened to any other set of fans in the land, had they been playing Notts Forest and been allocated the same end.

I think that you have to differentiate between 'blame' and 'causal factor'. The fact that Liverpool fans were 'wrongly' allocated the smaller Leppings Lane End as opposed to the Kop end is a causal factor, but the 'fault' of that is the people who made that decision. The fact that Liverpool fans arrived late (as all fans did at the time) is a causal factor, but that it was not dealt with by the authorities is where the blame lies, surely? Policemen not realising the massive error of too many fans in a certain area is a fault, surely? Not acting quickly enough to relieve the crush is where the blame lies?

Can you 'blame' people for normal behaviour? It's like saying that a large amount of passengers were to blame for their deaths at Kings Cross in the fire, despite the fact that it was the end of the rush hour and perfectly normal for them to be there at that time... is that what resulted in all those people losing their lives? Or was it the fact that the escalators were wooden or that fire fighting equipment in the station wasn't up to scratch or what?

I'm perfectly capable of distinguishing between blame and causation.

If a policeman can see that there are too many people in an area, why can't a football fan? If it is reasonable to expect a policeman to act quickly to 'stop the crush', why is it not reasonable to expect a football fan to stop pushing the bloke in front of him? I think that arriving late when tanked up and driving the people in front of you forward is behaviour that attracts some blame, even it could be considered the 'normal' thing to do.

[Little Green Man]

I gave up trying to get that point across as I am a shite writer who types extremely slowly. It was a football tragedy, and if it didnt happen that day it would have happened on another, the people that ran the game didnt give a toss about fans or their safety in those days.

You might consider yourself shite writer, AT, but I think your observation about an accident waiting to happen, in a situation where people in authority weren't up to doing their jobs, is fair comment.

Although I was living in Sheffield at the time, I wasn't at the ground. However, I did encounter the first people coming back to the train station from Hillsborough. I didn't realise the full enormity of the situation at the time (I knew something bad had happened from radio reports I'd heard relayed by shop staff), but I'll never forget the look of the Liverpool fans that passed me that day.

It is a bit pointless to blame a crowd, because a crowd is made up of a whole load of individuals, gathered together under the authority of some body. There is a responsibility of individuals in the crowd to themselves, to the people around them, and of the authorities that have sanctioned the event to the crowd itself.

The last time I felt horrified in a crowd was outside Liverpool Lime Street station just as the Champion's League trophy was being paraded in the open top bus. (I'd arrived at an inopportune time.) As the bus crawled up Lime Street, a family of three kids (one about a year old in a push chair, the other two less than eight years old) and their mother tried to get out of the crush. OK, they shouldn't have been there in the first place (lack of individual responsibility), but I was the only one that seemed prepared to help them get out (lack of group responsibility). The Liverpool fans were too pre-occupied in trying to get a picture on their mobile phones and there were no policemen or stewards to help out (lack of organisational responsibility). I was a bit sickened this because I'd have thought that after Liverpool football club's recent(-ish) history, the fans and authorities might acted differently.

[warthog]

I wouldn't want to get into a discussion about the issues surrounding Hillsborough. It's been done to death on here by people claiming to have studied the facts in depth, who emerge with diametrically opposing views.

A couple of personal experiences though. On the day of the disaster I took a train ride to Blackburn to buy a hard disk for my PC from Time Computers. Man City were playing at Ewood Park in a second division match. The supporters on the train were vociferous, but the atmosphere was cordial. Until we got to Darwen station. The fans tried to get off there (it's a decent pub crawl to the ground) but the police stopped them and were extremely hostile in doing so. From then on the mood was ugly.

A few weeks later I stood on the terraces at Wembley, before the Sherpa Van final against Torquay. Suddenly I was catapulted into the barrier a few steps in front.

"Burnden Wave!" shouted the moron at the back, who'd deliberately pushed the bunch of people in front of him. The previous month 95 people had died (eventually to be 96) at a football match.

For me, those incidents sum up the way football was then. Fans were treated like shit by the boys in blue, but the way some of them behaved, it's easy to understand the us and them mentality.

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

Nobody disputes the fact that the situation was policed very badly and that lessons were learnt. But any account that doesn't deal in shared 'blame' between the authorities and the fans themselves is unrealistic. The fact is, it did happen to that particular set of Liverpool fans, and I do not accept that it would have happened to any other set of fans in the land, had they been playing Notts Forest and been allocated the same end.

I think that you have to differentiate between 'blame' and 'causal factor'. The fact that Liverpool fans were 'wrongly' allocated the smaller Leppings Lane End as opposed to the Kop end is a causal factor, but the 'fault' of that is the people who made that decision. The fact that Liverpool fans arrived late (as all fans did at the time) is a causal factor, but that it was not dealt with by the authorities is where the blame lies, surely? Policemen not realising the massive error of too many fans in a certain area is a fault, surely? Not acting quickly enough to relieve the crush is where the blame lies?

Can you 'blame' people for normal behaviour? It's like saying that a large amount of passengers were to blame for their deaths at Kings Cross in the fire, despite the fact that it was the end of the rush hour and perfectly normal for them to be there at that time... is that what resulted in all those people losing their lives? Or was it the fact that the escalators were wooden or that fire fighting equipment in the station wasn't up to scratch or what?

I'm perfectly capable of distinguishing between blame and causation.

If a policeman can see that there are too many people in an area, why can't a football fan? If it is reasonable to expect a policeman to act quickly to 'stop the crush', why is it not reasonable to expect a football fan to stop pushing the bloke in front of him? I think that arriving late when tanked up and driving the people in front of you forward is behaviour that attracts some blame, even it could be considered the 'normal' thing to do.

.
You ever been in a motorway traffic hold up? Not a traffic jam, but a hold up that last's a few seconds? Why do you think that that happens? Because some tit has been adjusting his mirror before realising he has to brake hard because he had gotten to close to the car in front of him. Before you know it car after car behind him has braked in the outside line, then they switch to the middle lane and before you know it everyone in the middle lane has to slow down to compensate the sudden influx of traffic. All that multiplies as the traffic builds up, and before you know it you find yourself braking, stopping, waiting and then slowly restarting your journey without any sign of a crash or Police car (the other reason) wondering why.

The same applies here. One guy pushing to get a good view at the top of a crowd can be multiplied by ten at the bottom. Add a hundred to that and you would have your answer in my view. A fan can enter, find himself in a squeeze, push to get to were he can see and....well, see above.

And all that takes seconds!

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Two points (for what they are worth)

1. I have been an avid reader of Private Eye for many years (as others, I am sure). I believe most of what I read in there. Kelvin McKenzie's press (concerning Hillsborough, the treatment of his staff, and countless other issues) has been such that, if I saw him on fire, I would not piss on him. Let's not try and turn him into some evangelical campaigning journalist on here, eh?

2. South Yorkshire Police failed miserably in their duty of care to the public on that day. They then compounded their crimes by trying to cover up their inaction. And I am not anti-police.

[Bwfc in the bloodline]

http://www.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 44,00.htmlThen-editor MacKenzie made a grovelling apology the next day, but The Sun is still boycotted by many Liverpool fans because of those horrendous accusations.

Did the away end against Chelsea, and there was loads of stickers to this effect! I think to say those things is completely wrong.

[TANGODANCER]

Don't want to get involved in this, so "one" post because it's relevent:

The Scousers are a race apart. That is a fact. Does it make them bad? No, just different.

Having worked there for some twenty years in the past I can say with honesty that there are some fantastic people live in Liverpool. They are genuine, a bit "scally" in nature and totally parochial and secular. They also have the quickest funniest humour on earth and are generous enough in their own way. You have to work and have contact with them to know that, or begin to understand them. If they have one glaring fault (is it really a fault?) in that, if you kick one of them, they all limp. They are almost Gypsy like and almost anarchaic in their view of life on that topic.

No one knows the real truth of what, first and foremost was a disaster and a tragic loss of human life. What matters most is that fact. To keep it alive will only hurt the real victims, the families of those who died, and nothing can be gained by keep back-tracking and poking at embers with malicious sticks. "Once a journalist, always a journalist " might well be the reason for this latest publicity debacle, who knows? Lessons were learned at great cost; lessons we hope have sunk in and the causes never repeated. It's time to let the whole thing die; the families of the deceased have suffered enough. Sensation-seeking journalists, the general public and even those of who just read and comment, should let it rest along with the souls of the real victims. That is the best respect we could give to everyone. Let it die.

[warthog]

Two points (for what they are worth)

1. I have been an avid reader of Private Eye for many years (as others, I am sure). I believe most of what I read in there. Kelvin McKenzie's press (concerning Hillsborough, the treatment of his staff, and countless other issues) has been such that, if I saw him on fire, I would not piss on him. Let's not try and turn him into some evangelical campaigning journalist on here, eh?

2. South Yorkshire Police failed miserably in their duty of care to the public on that day. They then compounded their crimes by trying to cover up their inaction. And I am not anti-police.

Spot on.

Actually I would piss on McKenzie if he was on fire, just to add insult to injury. As long as you wait until the flames have got a decent hold it won't have an extinguishing effect.

[77,78,81,84,05]

Thank You.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

McKenzie made a very bad decision with how he presented that story given that so many died, but my feeling is that he did not tell outright lies, in that he actually did receive some reports about a few incidents which came to form his entirety of the 'truth'.

Letting it lie and simply learning the lessons is certainly the thing to do - but that isn't the course of conduct chosen by many many Liverpool fans. The way the Hillsborough disaster has become part of the cult of being a Liverpool fan really gets up my nose. Teenage fans far too young to remember the events used to put stickers up in my school appealing for 'JUSTICE FOR THE 96' and when I asked them what was the content of this justice might actually be, I was met with some very blank faces.

[blurred]

McKenzie made a very bad decision with how he presented that story given that so many died, but my feeling is that he did not tell outright lies, in that he actually did receive some reports about a few incidents which came to form his entirety of the 'truth'.

He did not tell outright lies? How about the front page banner that said Liverpool fans stole from the dead, when the families of those who died have accounted for each and every possession of the deceased? If that's not a lie (and a national newspaper, front-page headline, attention seeking and malicious lie at that) then I don't know what is. Please feel free to use your now expensively educated legal mind to defend that as not being a lie, because I can't see it as being anything other.

While he may wish to report a certain angle, and I'm aware that all journalists/newspapers have their own slant, to brazenly report either lies, or extremely uncorroborated reports as front page headlines proclaiming it to be the truth is ill-advised at best, and fecking atrocious at worst. He, as editor, has a duty to report news, albeit with a slant if he so wishes, but not create stories to suit his own agenda.

Compare the lies of The Sun after Hillsborough and what happened with Piers Morgan and his 'Iraqi Soldier Abuse' photos in the recent past. After being presented and defended as fact by the Mirror, and it was of great offence to seving men and women in the armed forces, these were proven to be faked. He lost his job, and his reputation, and yet this gobshite MacKenzie kept his, and continues to peddle these falsehoods.

Would I piss on him if he was on fire? No. I'd just piss on him if he wasn't. Objectionable c*nt.

Letting it lie and simply learning the lessons is certainly the thing to do - but that isn't the course of conduct chosen by many many Liverpool fans. The way the Hillsborough disaster has become part of the cult of being a Liverpool fan really gets up my nose. Teenage fans far too young to remember the events used to put stickers up in my school appealing for 'JUSTICE FOR THE 96' and when I asked them what was the content of this justice might actually be, I was met with some very blank faces.

I think that Liverpool fans, by and large, would be willing to let it die. While we remember the lives that were lost, and comemorate them in our own way (annual service, and in our songs and banners) it appears that mouthpieces like MacKenzie continue to attempt to justify the failings of the system, and attempt to paint themselves in a better light than they deserve. If they keep talking shite and spreading lies, why should we as fans be prepared to let it go?

And don't tar Liverpool fans with the same brush as a few un (or under) educated whoppers. Enjoy your educational superiority to them if you wish, but I'd rather some misguided or uneducated kids with Justice stickers spreading the message than be faced with Liverpool fans reading The Sun on the train to Middlesbrough away (as I was a couple of weeks ago). As for what is justice? Well, perhaps that's a debate for another time/thread.

On a side note, today was fantastic - I can't remember an atmosphere like it in terms of the number of songs about Hillsborough and The Sun and MacKenzie - winning 4-0 helps of course, but I was chuffed that for about 10 minutes in the 2nd half today we virtually sang non-stop about this issue. For all those who were in attendance who didn't know about it, I hope it served as an education (or at least a prompt to go away and look up who the 'lying bastard MacKenzie' is).

[blurred]

Oh, and just by a way of further education, or if anyone reading this thread was in any doubt, the following is taken from a Yorkshire Police summary on the Hillsborough disaster, to be found here

"[The Taylor Report] said that the principal cause of the disaster was the failure of police control. He described the failure to cut off access to pens 3 and 4 as a blunder of the first order. He said that the officer in charge, Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, "froze". Lord Justice Taylor described Chief Superintendent Duckenfield's words to Graham Kelly as 'a disgraceful lie' "

And just by way of supporting facts, the Taylor Enquiry sat for 6 weeks, heard statements from 3,776 witnesses, read 1,550 letters, 71 hours of video evidence and viewed hundreds of photographs. And if a Lord Chief Justice and his team view the above amount of evidence surrounding the disaster and tell you that the blame for the disaster lies at the feet of the police, and their mismanagement, then you better have a f*cking good reason to assert otherwise.

MacKenzie, you're a horrible, lying c*nt.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

What I said.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

McKenzie made a very bad decision with how he presented that story given that so many died, but my feeling is that he did not tell outright lies, in that he actually did receive some reports about a few incidents which came to form his entirety of the 'truth'.

He did not tell outright lies? How about the front page banner that said Liverpool fans stole from the dead, when the families of those who died have accounted for each and every possession of the deceased? If that's not a lie (and a national newspaper, front-page headline, attention seeking and malicious lie at that) then I don't know what is. Please feel free to use your now expensively educated legal mind to defend that as not being a lie, because I can't see it as being anything other.

While he may wish to report a certain angle, and I'm aware that all journalists/newspapers have their own slant, to brazenly report either lies, or extremely uncorroborated reports as front page headlines proclaiming it to be the truth is ill-advised at best, and fecking atrocious at worst. He, as editor, has a duty to report news, albeit with a slant if he so wishes, but not create stories to suit his own agenda.

The families accounted for each and every possession? If I went out now and got mugged, then I'm quite sure that my family would not have a fecking clue what I had on me. It would be monumentally unlikely that not one single item of property changed hands improperly during the chaos. I agree that MacKenize reported the story in a wholly inappropriate and insensitive way, but if he had a report of one single item being nicked, then it don't think I would describe what went into print as an outright lie. Only MacKenzie knows what he was told at the time.

It's interesting to hear people now saying that the Taylor Inquiry was 100% conclusive in refuting the Sun's story (now that it suits to say so), when similar people in the past have criticised it. The Taylor Inquiry did not and could not categorically disprove everything the Sun wrote, and lest we forget - that was certainly not its remit in the first place.

On a side note, today was fantastic - I can't remember an atmosphere like it in terms of the number of songs about Hillsborough and The Sun and MacKenzie - winning 4-0 helps of course, but I was chuffed that for about 10 minutes in the 2nd half today we virtually sang non-stop about this issue. For all those who were in attendance who didn't know about it, I hope it served as an education (or at least a prompt to go away and look up who the 'lying bastard MacKenzie' is).

Yeah, brilliant. Nothing like a bit of Hillsborough to unite the Scousers.

On the education point, given that the entire senior team at the Sun from 1989 has been replaced, doesn't blaming the Sun in its current guise make about as much sense as blaming Blair's administration for mistakes made by Thatcher's?

[Crouch > Davies]

Two points (for what they are worth)

1. I have been an avid reader of Private Eye for many years (as others, I am sure). I believe most of what I read in there. Kelvin McKenzie's press (concerning Hillsborough, the treatment of his staff, and countless other issues) has been such that, if I saw him on fire, I would not piss on him. Let's not try and turn him into some evangelical campaigning journalist on here, eh?

2. South Yorkshire Police failed miserably in their duty of care to the public on that day. They then compounded their crimes by trying to cover up their inaction. And I am not anti-police.

Probably the best post on this thread because it's so simple and doesn't try to go over the top with anything.

I know about the events that day obviously, one of my dad's friends never returned and my dad has struggled to go to football games ever since. It's not nice talking about it at any point, let alone when some gobshite like MacKenzie continues to spout his rubbish.

[Harry Genshaw]

Two points (for what they are worth)

1. I have been an avid reader of Private Eye for many years (as others, I am sure). I believe most of what I read in there. Kelvin McKenzie's press (concerning Hillsborough, the treatment of his staff, and countless other issues) has been such that, if I saw him on fire, I would not piss on him. Let's not try and turn him into some evangelical campaigning journalist on here, eh?

2. South Yorkshire Police failed miserably in their duty of care to the public on that day. They then compounded their crimes by trying to cover up their inaction. And I am not anti-police.

Probably the best post on this thread because it's so simple and doesn't try to go over the top with anything.

I know about the events that day obviously, one of my dad's friends never returned and my dad has struggled to go to football games ever since. It's not nice talking about it at any point, let alone when some gobshite like MacKenzie continues to spout his rubbish.

Agreed and to be honest I'm totally appalled that people posting on a football forum hold views like MummywhycantIeatcrayons. Anyone going to football in the 1980s could have been caught up in something like Hillsboro. There but for the grace of God/whoever/whatever.

[blurred]

Yeah, brilliant. Nothing like a bit of Hillsborough to unite the Scousers.

Not that we need your permission, exactly, but why the f*ck shouldn't it?

The next time a national newspaper slanders your friends, relatives and associates and calls them thieves and animals on its front page a couple of days after scores of them have been innocently killed in an easily preventable manner, then I'd accept your snide and sarcastic barbs, because you obviously seem to think that such a thing is acceptable and easily forgiven and forgotten...

[Batman]

Not being sarky or owt blurred, wanting an honest answer - do you think Scousers will ever be able to let it go?