Puzzled

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

i have a few points

txt spk and the like is fine in its place, as is here on an informal setting

The big issue is when this translates into modern writing, e.g. children using in exams. Or worse through lazyness.

i can write proper english if needed and when the time is right but why in an informal setting?

the language is evolving "innit" and if some do not want to move or even accept that then it is "like wateva"

Why differentiate though? It requires no more effort to use English properly than it does to use..... well, drivel, basically.

no you misunderstand

are you formal when talking with friends or do you relax

that is what i see relaxed language

if you don't like drivel then stop typing

Next stop, text speak novels; ten pages long.

We're now the world's second language, should we now pxss it all away, leaving every other country able to speak and write English apart from the country that invented it? Simply because of laziness and ignorance?

It worked for everything else - why change the habit of a lifetime?

i c ur point

[Prufrock]

All I can offer, after reading all of the foregoing presentations, is Good Grief!

I make no claim as to the language known as English being better or more subtle than any other, nor do I claim a command of such. The written form of English, as no doubt applies in other languages, does overcome the problem of regional accents encountered in verbal communication.

To you, Prufrock, I suggest that the dereliction of punctuation and capitalisation - combined with your adoption of some form of anti-establishment attitude to your language - makes your written expositions almost unintelligible. I gather from your pondering that you consider communication to be of the essence of life, a view with which I agree, but punctuation, spelling and grammar are all part of the ability to communicate our feelings and view on any particular subject without ambiguity. Is it not so?

Languages change, undoubtedly, but they change over time. Other posters have already pointed up the situation regarding ephemeral changes or regional idiomatic idiosyncrasies which, in a general sense, change over short periods of time and then fade away into history. Cool, man, eh?

seriously im going to say this once more. i have never, nor would ever say that i think language intergrating textspeak and becoming more like it is a good thing. similarly i don't want manchester united to win the premiership next season. however, i do think both will happen. my opinion. agree...or disagree either is fine with me.

i have already said i often drop apostrophe's and capitals through nothing other than laziness. i have no problem admitting that, normally when i type microsoft word does it for me, this website doesnt, i cant be bothered. if this added to my left wing punk anti establishment sensibilities makes me a heathen in your eyes Dujon, i wont try to convince you otherwise, you are entitled to your opinion. however, forgive me if it appears to affect me not.

i would also like to say, although i point out now i write this a tired and tetchy young man, that a couple of posts, particularly yours Dujon, but not excusively have appeared at best a litle patronising. if i have misinterpreted that i apologise would i would like to make a few points.
firstly, i am a young man, inexperienced in life. i know this and will often ask questions of others to try to learn more about the world we live in and its past. sometimes there are things i just dont know about a time because i havent lived through it. i found talking about the war a few weeks back very interesting to hear other peoples experiences both in the army no and then, through the war, and in the time since.

therefore, fountain of knowledge i aint. however relating to this thread, i would like to point out that, 19 or not, as a classicist and linguist, this is my area of expertise. anyone who has done classics to a high level has to have a very good understanding of english grammar, dare i even suggest my knowledge of english grammar is probably higher than most people both on here and in general. now i say this not to blow my own trumpet, i would use it perhaps to ask of the self appointed protectors of the good and great that is the english language, hand on heart honestly, do we all know the difference between 'shall' and 'will'. do we know how to use the english subjunctive, do we know why and when some nouns beginning with an 'h' should, when using the indefinate article, be preceeded by 'a', and others by 'an'. i'm not saying this to show me as being big and clever but to illustrate some of the things that have changed in recent history in terms of language.

another point i would like to make to people who want to conserve the english language for any other reason than for ease of communication for everybody, say as a point of national pride, or history, the people who (i generalise) often patronise or look down on others who missuse deliberately or accidentally the english language, and think any modernising changes are brought about by the foolish and uneducated. the correct english plural of the word 'octupus' was, until recently, 'octopodes'. however due to smart-arses who knew that latinate english nouns ending in -us in the singular end in -i in the plural, the word 'octopi' is also now acceptable as plural. it is a similar situation with 'cactus'. the very people who wanted to preserve the english language because they thought the use of 'octupusses' made it corrupt and lowered its value, themselves corrupted it further.

language changes, how much of it will change in the next 50, or a hundred years, none of us know. i have stated my reasons for how i envisage it will. everybody else has, and is entitled to their own opinion

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

however relating to this thread, i would like to point out that, 19 or not, as a classicist and linguist, this is my area of expertise. anyone who has done classics to a high level has to have a very good understanding of english grammar, dare i even suggest my knowledge of english grammar is probably higher than most people both on here and in general. now i say this not to blow my own trumpet, i would use it perhaps to ask of the self appointed protectors of the good and great that is the english language, hand on heart honestly, do we all know the difference between 'shall' and 'will'. do we know how to use the english subjunctive, do we know why and when some nouns beginning with an 'h' should, when using the indefinate article, be preceeded by 'a', and others by 'an'. i'm not saying this to show me as being big and clever but to illustrate some of the things that have changed in recent history in terms of language.

A daring suggestion indeed, Prufrock, given your apparent indifference to employing that understanding in the form of elegant sentences!

As for your list of questions - would that we were all able to distinguish properly the indicative and imperative! I think I need to lie down and take a couple of aspirates....

[Prufrock]

however relating to this thread, i would like to point out that, 19 or not, as a classicist and linguist, this is my area of expertise. anyone who has done classics to a high level has to have a very good understanding of english grammar, dare i even suggest my knowledge of english grammar is probably higher than most people both on here and in general. now i say this not to blow my own trumpet, i would use it perhaps to ask of the self appointed protectors of the good and great that is the english language, hand on heart honestly, do we all know the difference between 'shall' and 'will'. do we know how to use the english subjunctive, do we know why and when some nouns beginning with an 'h' should, when using the indefinate article, be preceeded by 'a', and others by 'an'. i'm not saying this to show me as being big and clever but to illustrate some of the things that have changed in recent history in terms of language.

A daring suggestion indeed, Prufrock, given your apparent indifference to employing that understanding in the form of elegant sentences!

As for your list of questions - would that we were all able to distinguish properly the indicative and imperative! I think I need to lie down and take a couple of aspirates....

im tired and im stroppy none of what i said was meant to be a big show off, nor was it meant to make me out to know everything. i certainly do not. but i have spent the last nine years of my life studying languages and linguisitcs.

as for the emboldened bit, i do not see what is different between my, or anyone else's occasional omission of certain gramatical features, and the self appointed protectors of the language missing out some of the gramatical features i have mentioned.

[Dujon]

Prufrock, my comments were not some sort of attack on you although some were indeed directed to you. Perhaps I have been guilty of being unclear and leaving what I thought to be implicit in my comments unsaid; if that has led to an impression by readers that I am being patronising then so be it and is obviously my fault, but I can assure you that it is not intentional.

To clarify: My opinion (big headed or otherwise) is that a writer should always consider the reader and attempt to convey to that reader the exact sentiment being expressed. To do otherwise dilutes the information, or at best clouds it in some form of semantic mist. It appears that in that regard I'm as guilty as any man.

[Prufrock]

Prufrock, my comments were not some sort of attack on you although some were indeed directed to you. Perhaps I have been guilty of being unclear and leaving what I thought to be implicit in my comments unsaid; if that has led to an impression by readers that I am being patronising then so be it and is obviously my fault, but I can assure you that it is not intentional.

To clarify: My opinion (big headed or otherwise) is that a writer should always consider the reader and attempt to convey to that reader the exact sentiment being expressed. To do otherwise dilutes the information, or at best clouds it in some form of semantic mist. It appears that in that regard I'm as guilty as any man.

as i said i am tired at the moment, although i do think your comments still seem patronising. however if you say that wasnt the case then i beleive you and apologise for overreacting, it is not necessarily your fault i thought your comments were patronising if they were not.

that aside my point still stands regarding other elements of proper english grammar that have fallen out of use. it always has happened, and in my view always will. however there is no particular moment you can say when people stopped using 'shall' and 'will' correctly. i would say they have fallen out of usage, yet i know people who still use them. in my personal opinion, capitalisation and apostrophe usage may also go. when? i wouldnt want to predict but my own view is that text messaging and internet fora ( ) will speed this, and other similar instances up.

[qwertywarrior]

well im not a 19 yr old classicist (?) who is lazy

this is how i type it is all about environment

relax chill and can you understand or should we go back to cave drawings

[Worthy4England]

well im not a 19 yr old classicist (?) who is lazy

this is how i type it is all about environment

relax chill and can you understand or should we go back to cave drawings

I would have thought that posts on a forum were for the benefit of others to read? You put an opinion out there and look to others to read it. So rather than looking at it from your benefit - this is how i type it is all about environment - look at it from the aspect of the person who you want to read it.

What it comes down to, is that many will discount what may be a good idea/opinion because it's badly presented. I'm sure there's plenty of well though out posts on here that have been generally ignored because people couldn't be bothered using paragraphs etc.

It's not a case of relax and chill, it takes no more effort to do it right than it does to do it incorrectly. Some of the input that's been seen on here over the years has indeed been not dissimilar to cave drawings. They're generally ignored, as it's difficult to represent concepts such as anti-disestablishmentarianism in a graphical context.

[Bruce Rioja]

no you misunderstand

are you formal when talking with friends or do you relax

that is what i see relaxed language

if you don't like drivel then stop typing

Perhaps, but this is a message board used by people from all over the world. As such certain standards of grammar are to be upheld as the preferred medium is English. Is that too difficult for you?

[communistworkethic]

however relating to this thread, i would like to point out that, 19 or not, as a classicist and linguist, this is my area of expertise. anyone who has done classics to a high level has to have a very good understanding of english grammar, dare i even suggest my knowledge of english grammar is probably higher than most people both on here and in general. now i say this not to blow my own trumpet, i would use it perhaps to ask of the self appointed protectors of the good and great that is the english language, hand on heart honestly, do we all know the difference between 'shall' and 'will'. do we know how to use the english subjunctive, do we know why and when some nouns beginning with an 'h' should, when using the indefinate article, be preceeded by 'a', and others by 'an'. i'm not saying this to show me as being big and clever but to illustrate some of the things that have changed in recent history in terms of language.

A daring suggestion indeed, Prufrock, given your apparent indifference to employing that understanding in the form of elegant sentences!

As for your list of questions - would that we were all able to distinguish properly the indicative and imperative! I think I need to lie down and take a couple of aspirates....

Pencilbiter sums things up quite well. Arguing that you are, in some way, a greater expert on English than anyone else here is flawed in its basic assumption then shattered by your failure to construct a sentence, spell or punctuate your post with anything like a modicum of accuracy.

Classics now have little bearing on our language, Latin will not allow a split infinitive, yet it is now commonly accepted that this is allowable in English grammar.

And, as a lesson for you, before you shout the odds about how great you are, it is advisable to make sure you are the biggest dog in the fight, which you really, really are not on this one. This sight is littered with those paid to write for their livings, prospective lawyers, and published authors; as a student, you still have a lot to learn, not least about grammar.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

A command of Standard English is, more than ever before, a qualification that separates the wheat from the chavs.

Oh, absolutely. Here's a story for you, PB, a story that I'm sure you'll empathise with given your current country of abode. I was on the overnight Hull to Rotterdam ferry a few weeks ago and there was this bunch of chavs making its way over for a few days of debauchery. Picture the scene if you will. I'm sat reading whilst enjoying a glass of wine when all of a sudden this group of boys present themselves at the bar, all in their late teens, all with gel-spiked hair and all wearing sunglasses on a boat that's in the middle of the North Sea in the dead of night. Each youth was wearing a black hooded top with pink lettering on the front which read "Amsterdam 08. Let the sin's begin". Given the standard of English, both spoken and written by the Dutch I felt embarrassed just thinking about this shower being corrected on their inappropriate use of an apostrophe by people for whom English is a second, or often third language.

Ha - I think we both know that the Dutch would be far too polite to correct them!

As has been said by others, one does have to wonder what the printers who do this for a living are playing at, slavishly reproducing these errors?!

You're absolutely right though: given the importance of English as the world's lingua franca, we perhaps need not feel too embarrassed about our inability to speak foreign languages, but the same cannot be said of English itself!


It's a shame that the only English people that many Dutch ever see are these groups in Amsterdam, and that the only part of the Netherlands that many English ever see is down-town Amsterdam... both are grossly unrepresentative as to the whole.

[Worthy4England]

A command of Standard English is, more than ever before, a qualification that separates the wheat from the chavs.

Oh, absolutely. Here's a story for you, PB, a story that I'm sure you'll empathise with given your current country of abode. I was on the overnight Hull to Rotterdam ferry a few weeks ago and there was this bunch of chavs making its way over for a few days of debauchery. Picture the scene if you will. I'm sat reading whilst enjoying a glass of wine when all of a sudden this group of boys present themselves at the bar, all in their late teens, all with gel-spiked hair and all wearing sunglasses on a boat that's in the middle of the North Sea in the dead of night. Each youth was wearing a black hooded top with pink lettering on the front which read "Amsterdam 08. Let the sin's begin". Given the standard of English, both spoken and written by the Dutch I felt embarrassed just thinking about this shower being corrected on their inappropriate use of an apostrophe by people for whom English is a second, or often third language.

Ha - I think we both know that the Dutch would be far too polite to correct them!

As has been said by others, one does have to wonder what the printers who do this for a living are playing at, slavishly reproducing these errors?!

You're absolutely right though: given the importance of English as the world's lingua franca, we perhaps need not feel too embarrassed about our inability to speak foreign languages, but the same cannot be said of English itself!


It's a shame that the only English people that many Dutch ever see are these groups in Amsterdam, and that the only part of the Netherlands that many English ever see is down-town Amsterdam... both are grossly unrepresentative as to the whole.

I was in Breda last week. Not a single whore in a window anywhere Fortunately, the TV channel line-up in the hotel more than made up for it by placing two "Private" channels between MTV and Nick Jr.....

[qwertywarrior]

no you misunderstand

are you formal when talking with friends or do you relax

that is what i see relaxed language

if you don't like drivel then stop typing

Perhaps, but this is a message board used by people from all over the world. As such certain standards of grammar are to be upheld as the preferred medium is English. Is that too difficult for you?

not at all

not going to change tho

perhaps we should all start learning spanish then cos more people will undrstand it

dont see your point not really intersted

are you a farmer?

[TANGODANCER]

I honestly learned more about our own language by studying Spanish than I ever did at school; primarily because of the familiarity aspect, ie, we know what we mean and use the tools without the need to know their names. We automatically know the difference in pronunciation between : Bomb, comb and tomb, for example - from usage - whilst it might be very puzzling and difficult indeed, to anyone learning English as a second language.

"Viva la Reina" and "Long live the Queen".

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

well im not a 19 yr old classicist (?) who is lazy

this is how i type it is all about environment

relax chill and can you understand or should we go back to cave drawings

I know where you're coming from querty, though I've actually used this environment to improve my English; both in spelling and grammar. All from posting on this site (I said improve Bruce, put the keyboard down).

I've done it by learning and reading other members posts and threads. It's not my place to presume, but I expect it's been the same for the likes of Daxter, whose English has improved like mine from using this site. After all, when I first started posting on here, I always thought a 'semi-colon' was half an arse!

I guess I could always use the relaxed approached, but I wouldn't learn anything from it.

[Daxter]

well im not a 19 yr old classicist (?) who is lazy

this is how i type it is all about environment

relax chill and can you understand or should we go back to cave drawings

I know where you're coming from querty, though I've actually used this environment to improve my English; both in spelling and grammar. All from posting on this site (I said improve Bruce, put the keyboard down).

I've done it by learning and reading other members posts and threads. It's not my place to presume, but I expect it's been the same for the likes of Daxter, whose English has improved like mine from using this site. After all, when I first started posting on here, I always thought a 'semi-colon' was half an arse!

I guess I could always use the relaxed approached, but I wouldn't learn anything from it.

You're kind of right SOTWA, in that my English has definately improved from using the site. I find that reading is the most effective way of improving an individuals standard of English anyway, and it's stood me in good stead throughout my life; as a youngster I read lots and it definately facilliated my ability to write to a decent standard. Academically, English has always been one of my strengths anyway seeing as I attained an A in GCSE and study the subject at A-Level.

But I would say that when I started posting here, aside from the content of my posts being mostly drivel, they were almost impossible to decipher, due to poor spelling, punctuation and a plethora of typo's. That was down to a combination of using that relaxed approach that I wouldn't apply to my schoolwork as well as just simply my age, but I'd definately say over time, using this site has been a great help, not least to just my typing skills.

It's kind of what I like about this site anyway, in that it does set it apart from the other sites out there. Bolton Banter is just a snooze fest of inactivity anyway, but some of the stuff on Wanderers Ways you need to read over a few times to try and work out what the hell they're on about. You only have to look at the quality of articles we get so frequently here to see what sets TW apart.

[TANGODANCER]

[You're kind of right SOTWA, in that my English has definately improved from using the site. I find that reading is the most effective way of improving an individuals standard of English anyway, and it's stood me in good stead throughout my life; as a youngster I read lots and it definately facilliated my ability to write to a decent standard. Academically, English has always been one of my strengths anyway seeing as I attained an A in GCSE and study the subject at A-Level.

But I would say that when I started posting here, aside from the content of my posts being mostly drivel, they were almost impossible to decipher, due to poor spelling, punctuation and a plethora of typo's. That was down to a combination of using that relaxed approach that I wouldn't apply to my schoolwork as well as just simply my age, but I'd definately say over time, using this site has been a great help, not least to just my typing skills.

It's kind of what I like about this site anyway, in that it does set it apart from the other sites out there. Bolton Banter is just a snooze fest of inactivity anyway, but some of the stuff on Wanderers Ways you need to read over a few times to try and work out what the hell they're on about. You only have to look at the quality of articles we get so frequently here to see what sets TW apart.

But you still can't spell definitely.

[Daxter]

DOH!

Did say it had improved though, not that it was perfect.

[TANGODANCER]

DOH!

Did say it had improved though, not tha it was perfect.

Well put, and no offence meant buddy.

[Montreal Wanderer]

[You're kind of right SOTWA, in that my English has definately improved from using the site. I find that reading is the most effective way of improving an individuals standard of English anyway, and it's stood me in good stead throughout my life; as a youngster I read lots and it definately facilliated my ability to write to a decent standard. Academically, English has always been one of my strengths anyway seeing as I attained an A in GCSE and study the subject at A-Level.

But I would say that when I started posting here, aside from the content of my posts being mostly drivel, they were almost impossible to decipher, due to poor spelling, punctuation and a plethora of typo's. That was down to a combination of using that relaxed approach that I wouldn't apply to my schoolwork as well as just simply my age, but I'd definately say over time, using this site has been a great help, not least to just my typing skills.

It's kind of what I like about this site anyway, in that it does set it apart from the other sites out there. Bolton Banter is just a snooze fest of inactivity anyway, but some of the stuff on Wanderers Ways you need to read over a few times to try and work out what the hell they're on about. You only have to look at the quality of articles we get so frequently here to see what sets TW apart.

But you still can't spell definitely.

Nor can prufrock but we'll keep working at it. Facilitated is of course much trickier, Dax. Poor Daxter came in for some criticism and laughter regarding his English when he stated, a couple of years ago, that he wished to be a journalist. However, he might make it now.