There is definetely a god - apparently

[William the White]

I guess this is a response to TANGODANCER - I certainly think Jesus had a corporeal existence. I think he was within the Jewish tradition of dispute - some of which is replicated by the protestant response to what they saw as the corruption of roman catholicism. Like, witness the casting out of the money lenders from the temple, and the nailing of Luther's manifesto to the door of (i think) Wurtenburg cathedral.

I also think his extrordinarily daring reworking of the essential message of his own (jewish) religion is breathtaking - to replace the 10 commandments of moses with the commandment to 'love' is to inject a truly subversive bullet into jewish theology, which is based on obligation -thou shalt not (steal, commit adultery) - with thou shalt - something that has always to be negotiated - love thy neighbour as thyself. That was brave. He paid the price.

[Please don't think for one moment that i believe that jesus was anything other than human - but, for sure, he was a courageous human being with a tremendous will, an admirable capacity to defiance in the face of death that is breathtaking, and a fundamental utopian desire for peace and goodwill that is an enduring part of human desire, and, in some ways, one which i share].

Then the roman catholic church happened. For something like 17 centuries spread by the sword, the gunboat, the auto da fe, the torture chamber. And, pretty early on, the 'heretics' emerge - equally disposed to savagery.

The history of christianity is so steeped in bloodshed and agony that I believe it would have been much better for the world if human beings had not invented it in its organised form in the 4th century compact with constantine.

I think jesus was remarkable. but not the son of god. i think he would despise and reject two millenia of his followers actions.

i also think Christians should celebrate christmas if they wish, in whatever way they wish. Loving god and spending loads of money on wild computer games would, I'm certain, bring a smile to the face of the founder of the belief.

[TANGODANCER]

Even as a staunch Christian I can never condone the actions of all the powermongering and war perpetrated supposedly in the name of God for more centuries than I care to remember. No one who studies history factually can claim differently. It's why I once replied to this same argument by saying I sought the word of God, not that of man speaking on his behalf.

The perpetrators were not common soldiers-they were just lead to believe they were fighting to win the Holy Land, a land of milk and honey where the streets were paved with gold and reclaiming it all for God. Blame the usual suspects, Royalty, Politicians and the landowners. Nothing more thean empiring. An army out of war was a useless and massive expense. What better thing to do than send them off on crusades in God's name and let them make their own wages and feed themselves. If the armies were depleted, well, get the booty home and there would be less of a problem all round. The crusades were plots by people like King Phillipe IV of France and Pope Clement, and later Pope Urban. All in God's name of course. The Church of England was a self-created establishment by Henry the VIII just because the Catholic Church wouldn't grant him a divorce. He slaughtered thousands of Catholics, priests and nuns, and burned multiple churches in his own country just to get his own way in bed. Nice guy..

Please don't ever be under the misapprehension that I defend man's version of Christianity. I don't. At least today's version has gained a measure of civility.

[Father Jack Hackett]

I believe it was the prophet A. Partridge who said that God "is a gas". This was on television, on his chat show, therefore has some truth.

[TANGODANCER]

I believe it was the prophet A. Partridge who said that God "is a gas". This was on television, on his chat show, therefore has some truth.

Love the avatar. ps, I'll be nipping over to the New Members site. I'm a deeply suspicious type about somebody whose first post on a football site is about religion.

[Father Jack Hackett]

It's me on a very, VERY good day.

Anyway, what is religion except an excuse to argue and row? Peace in the valley says I, and I know what I'm talking about, as I live in a valley.

[William the White]

It's me on a very, VERY good day.

Anyway, what is religion except an excuse to argue and row? Peace in the valley says I, and I know what I'm talking about, as I live in a valley.

So, do go slumber in the peaceful valley. have sweet dreams. don't ever wake up. farewell.

[Father Jack Hackett]

Get out, yer bard

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

Get out, yer bard

Funny you should say that.

[TANGODANCER]

Might be interesting to get some comments on this:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ays_corrie

[Prufrock]

Might be interesting to get some comments on this:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ays_corrie

That sort of thing REALLY p*sses me off, gives valid causes a bad name and gives ammo to the 'political correctness gone mad' brigade. Honestly, who the feck in their right mind is actually offended by it? Its a church, that's pretty much where crosses are meant to be. I don't go for the religion thing, so i don't tend to frequent churches. Were i to go inside one however, i'd be pretty bemused should i find it crucifixless!

[Montreal Wanderer]

Might be interesting to get some comments on this:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ays_corrie

That sort of thing REALLY p*sses me off, gives valid causes a bad name and gives ammo to the 'political correctness gone mad' brigade. Honestly, who the feck in their right mind is actually offended by it? Its a church, that's pretty much where crosses are meant to be. I don't go for the religion thing, so i don't tend to frequent churches. Were i to go inside one however, i'd be pretty bemused should i find it crucifixless!

Molly and Tyrone (whoever the heck they are) should go to a registry office if churches offend corrie viewers.

[thebish]

For people who don't believe in God, you sure spend a lot of time talking about him. One dismissal should be enough if you're that confident.

LOL. Not like you aren't assaulted by the absurd fairy tale on a very regular basis, is it? Especially at winter solstice time. Weeks of nauseating 'songs' in supermarkets, streets, mass media. and preachers galore. Keep him in churches and we atheists can get on with ignoring him.

can you ignore someone who doesn't exist?? Surely the very act of ignoring is kind of intentional and suggests there is someone to ignore?

[TANGODANCER]

See the bad part about all this isn't about offending anyone, it's about idiots who assume they're doing something clever and pc when in fact they're just making idiots of themselves. Like Monty said, why have these two soap characters marry in a church (specially hired by the producers of the show) then pretend it isn't a church. Pru claims it's feeding ammo to the "politically-correctness gone mad brigade". It is the pc lot gone mad. Would a Muslim wedding not have the trappings of their religion if filmed in a Mosque? Would a Jewish wedding not have the same filmed in a Synagogue? Why then a church with no crosses? This in itself has defeated its own object by offending Christians whos' church it is in the first place.

The really sad part is the fact that the vicar didn't have the balls to tell them to fxxk off and film it elsewhere whilst making that point. If he had, it might just have registered to these worshippers of TV ratings just how idiotic they were being. Now all that's left is " wise after the event", stable-door philosophy. Did it offend anyone? Aye, me for a start.
"Keep God in churches" someone quoted on here. That's irony for you.

[William the White]

For people who don't believe in God, you sure spend a lot of time talking about him. One dismissal should be enough if you're that confident.

LOL. Not like you aren't assaulted by the absurd fairy tale on a very regular basis, is it? Especially at winter solstice time. Weeks of nauseating 'songs' in supermarkets, streets, mass media. and preachers galore. Keep him in churches and we atheists can get on with ignoring him.

can you ignore someone who doesn't exist?? Surely the very act of ignoring is kind of intentional and suggests there is someone to ignore?

god, of course, your grace, has a social existence, is an invisible but present entity, like toothache, and just as difficult to ignore. my suggestion is that it should, as a favour to us all, be limited to certain times and place, thus allowing the non-religious amongst us to get on without the almighty being inflicted upon us. your grace presumably took divine orders with a specialism in casuistry. i am lost in admiration at your command of the specialism.

[TANGODANCER]

[
god, of course, your grace, has a social existence, is an invisible but present entity, like toothache, and just as difficult to ignore. my suggestion is that it should, as a favour to us all, be limited to certain times and place, thus allowing the non-religious amongst us to get on without the almighty being inflicted upon us. your grace presumably took divine orders with a specialism in casuistry. i am lost in admiration at your command of the specialism.

And on that note, I'm happy to conclude the discussion. Don't want to offend anyone. Thy will be done. Amen.

[Lord Kangana]

"Because we can conceive of such a supreme being, therefore blah etc"....I believe is what someone once said, I think. I really should have listened more in A-Level Theology to keep this argument alive. But anyway, apparantly you can't counter that with "because I can conceive of a 2.5 litre green Ford Cortina with nice alloys and furry dice it must exist" for some reason.

I think its on the point of faith that I have the biggest problem. By all means believe in/worship/genuflect whatever, but can someone explain to me whether god is either vengeful or forgiving, and if he's so god damn omniscient, why the f*ck didn't he spot evil coming a mile off? It all gets confusing, am I going to hell or not? Are the cheesemakers really blessed, or is it a reference to all manufacturers of dairy produce? Enough for me to suggest that whilst his PR department says he rested on the seventh day, I've a feeling he was being a little tinker, and confusing us all to his real motives.

And he must be a crap communicator, if so many people have 'interpreted' his message so badly. Or a bad designer for our failure to understand and agree. Surely if he knows and sees everything, he might pop by once in a while and say "one of us is talking sh*t, and it ain't me", you know, to avoid a few wars and stuff. Just not very supreme, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent, really, IMHO.

[Prufrock]

[
god, of course, your grace, has a social existence, is an invisible but present entity, like toothache, and just as difficult to ignore. my suggestion is that it should, as a favour to us all, be limited to certain times and place, thus allowing the non-religious amongst us to get on without the almighty being inflicted upon us. your grace presumably took divine orders with a specialism in casuistry. i am lost in admiration at your command of the specialism.

And on that note, I'm happy to conclude the discussion. Don't want to offend anyone. Thy will be done. Amen.

Bloody religious types, always have to have the last word

[Dujon]

So be it - or, as we tend to say down here in the mid-day heat, too bloomin' right, mate.

[William the White]

[
god, of course, your grace, has a social existence, is an invisible but present entity, like toothache, and just as difficult to ignore. my suggestion is that it should, as a favour to us all, be limited to certain times and place, thus allowing the non-religious amongst us to get on without the almighty being inflicted upon us. your grace presumably took divine orders with a specialism in casuistry. i am lost in admiration at your command of the specialism.

And on that note, I'm happy to conclude the discussion. Don't want to offend anyone. Thy will be done. Amen.

Bet you're not. and bet you don't!

[William the White]

"Because we can conceive of such a supreme being, therefore blah etc"....I believe is what someone once said, I think. I really should have listened more in A-Level Theology to keep this argument alive. But anyway, apparantly you can't counter that with "because I can conceive of a 2.5 litre green Ford Cortina with nice alloys and furry dice it must exist" for some reason.

I think its on the point of faith that I have the biggest problem. By all means believe in/worship/genuflect whatever, but can someone explain to me whether god is either vengeful or forgiving, and if he's so god damn omniscient, why the f*ck didn't he spot evil coming a mile off? It all gets confusing, am I going to hell or not? Are the cheesemakers really blessed, or is it a reference to all manufacturers of dairy produce? Enough for me to suggest that whilst his PR department says he rested on the seventh day, I've a feeling he was being a little tinker, and confusing us all to his real motives.

And he must be a crap communicator, if so many people have 'interpreted' his message so badly. Or a bad designer for our failure to understand and agree. Surely if he knows and sees everything, he might pop by once in a while and say "one of us is talking sh*t, and it ain't me", you know, to avoid a few wars and stuff. Just not very supreme, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent, really, IMHO.

the 'proof' I like is: god by definition is a perfect being in every way. One element of perfection is existence. Therefore god exists. Isn't that feckin great? defined into existence.

the other one is 'everything that exists MUST have a cause. since there was a time when nothing existed there must be a first cause. this is god'.

There could be no more wretched an argument than this, when the conclusion contradicts the premise that starts the 'proof'.